Who is really making "swiss cheese of the Bible?"

[NathanATX]

A post on homosexuality at www.christianforums.com and my response...

Originally Posted by brightmorningstar

Hi ebia,

That’s about right IMO, in the same way God showed how much he loved the world through Jesus and anyone who disagrees is making a swiss cheese out of the Bible. It all depends on whether one believes the testimony of the Bible or not or the bits they want.

The problem with this arguement is:

1) The testimony of the Bible strongly supports the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin.

2) It ignores all the other areas of the Bible that modern day Christians overlook or do not apply literally to their lives, thus allowing ONLY those who use the Bible to condemn homosexuality to be the ones who can "make swiss cheese of the Bible."

You either have to acknowledge that we as Christians evaulate the Bible using other verses, original languages, cultural & historical context, etc., OR you have to apply the Bible literally--every word, every phrase. To do otherwise lacks integrity.

The fact is, most people have been *taught* that homosexuality is wrong using individual verses with no attempt made at interpretation or evaluation of context. Most people are not homosexual and don't have a lot of education on sexuality, thus creating uncertainty and possibly even fear when this "unknown" topic is brought up. Mix in a little fear of hell and you have a recipe for disaster.

Families disown children. Churches excommunicate members. Gay & lesbian people themselves believe these untruths and put themselves at risk, sometimes leading to suicide.

You are certainly entitled to keep your beliefs just the way they are. From this point on, though, YOU are responsible for the truth of knowing that scripture supports a different way of believing about gay & lesbian people. YOU are responsible for holding your words & actions to the high standard of "loving your neighbor."

My hope and prayer is that you will begin to truly look at a more authentic and loving way of being... a more Christlike way of believing and acting.

But lets consider that you just can't find peace in your heart that homosexuality is not a sin. Then you become even more responsible for your words and actions, because if you believe a glbt person is sinning and you do or say something that would cause them to turn away from God, Jesus said in Matthew 18...

"5What's more, when you receive the childlike on my account, it's the same as receiving me.

6"But if you give them a hard time, bullying or taking advantage of their simple trust, you'll soon wish you hadn't. You'd be better off dropped in the middle of the lake with a millstone around your neck.

7Doom to the world for giving these God-believing children a hard time! Hard times are inevitable, but you don't have to make it worse--and it's doomsday to you if you do."

And over and over again, that is the effect of the homophobic, condemning stance of many Christians... people turning away from God.

That is a lot to be responsible for.

[studying]

Who is really making "swiss cheese of the Bible?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A post on homosexuality at www.christianforums.com and my response...


Quote:
Originally Posted by brightmorningstar
Hi ebia,

That’s about right IMO, in the same way God showed how much he loved the world through Jesus and anyone who disagrees is making a swiss cheese out of the Bible. It all depends on whether one believes the testimony of the Bible or not or the bits they want.




The problem with this arguement is:

1) The testimony of the Bible strongly supports the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin.

Where? What texts?

2) It ignores all the other areas of the Bible that modern day Christians overlook or do not apply literally to their lives, thus allowing ONLY those who use the Bible to condemn homosexuality to be the ones who can "make swiss cheese of the Bible."

Two wrongs making a right defines homosexual behavior as wrong.

You either have to acknowledge that we as Christians evaulate the Bible using other verses, original languages, cultural & historical context, etc., OR you have to apply the Bible literally--every word, every phrase. To do otherwise lacks integrity.

Why? Sexuality was a done deal way back when.

The fact is, most people have been *taught* that homosexuality is wrong using individual verses with no attempt made at interpretation or evaluation of context.

Many people were taught many things about sex they didn't like. Especially when shown by another person. Coerced as it were.

Most people are not homosexual and don't have a lot of education on sexuality, thus creating uncertainty and possibly even fear when this "unknown" topic is brought up. Mix in a little fear of hell and you have a recipe for disaster.

What about honesty? Anatomy speaks volumes to a person's sexual behavior being right or wrong. It is not homophobia to disapprove of homosexual behavior.

Families disown children.

Jesus mentioned that very fact. He is the cause he said.

Churches excommunicate members.

That is the right of every Church body. The excommunicated can go to many other churches. Can they not?

Gay & lesbian people themselves believe these untruths and put themselves at risk, sometimes leading to suicide.

Are their any numbers to support this terrible assertion? My gay friends seem very happy. Some are not Christians.

You are certainly entitled to keep your beliefs just the way they are. From this point on, though, YOU are responsible for the truth of knowing that scripture supports a different way of believing about gay & lesbian people.

Scripture calls for people to repent of sexual licentiousness. Sexual licentiousness is equated with sexual impurity in every case in scripture. It is modern man that is redefining homosexuality. Paul would have known it in minute detail as he literally lived in Greece. He even knew about Cretans.

YOU are responsible for holding your words & actions to the high standard of "loving your neighbor."

And preaching the Gospel of repentance and forgiveness. Is that homophobia? Some claim it is.

My hope and prayer is that you will begin to truly look at a more authentic and loving way of being... a more Christlike way of believing and acting.

Did Jesus ever give us a reason to accept homosexuality? It is clear that He was a practicing Jew. He even celebrated Hannukah. An extra-biblical Jewish celebration.

But lets consider that you just can't find peace in your heart that homosexuality is not a sin. Then you become even more responsible for your words and actions, because if you believe a glbt person is sinning and you do or say something that would cause them to turn away from God, Jesus said in Matthew 18...

"5What's more, when you receive the childlike on my account, it's the same as receiving me.

Are you claiming homosexual sex is childlike behavior or choice?

6"But if you give them a hard time, bullying or taking advantage of their simple trust, you'll soon wish you hadn't. You'd be better off dropped in the middle of the lake with a millstone around your neck.

Jesus is literally talking about young children. Not adults making choices. Or better yet; threatening adults to not lead children astray.

7Doom to the world for giving these God-believing children a hard time! Hard times are inevitable, but you don't have to make it worse--and it's doomsday to you if you do."

Should children be taught about sexuality any other way than "naturally?" WWJD?

And over and over again, that is the effect of the homophobic, condemning stance of many Christians... people turning away from God.

Didn't Jesus tell the apostles that this would happen? And, to go on to people that would listen? Jesus even said that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented if they would have heard the Gospel.

That is a lot to be responsible for.

And Jesus gave us the instructions on how to be responsible. Or else.

Is that not Biblical?

[peaceboy]

For information on gays and lesbians committing suicide, check out this site:
http://www.youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/.

I personally contemplated suicide when I was younger (would never do it, though), as have many, many gay people I know. There also was a major study done in the early nineties that showed that gay youth had much higher rates of suicide than straight youth. It was suppressed, however, by the Bush administration. Does anyone else have more information on this? I can probably find some, but if anyone knows off the top of their head, that would be great!

[peaceboy]

Here's just one example from one of the studies:
earch highlights: 95 Gay/Bi Males aged 15-26 (Average age = 20.8 years). 28% of respondents had at some point deliberately injured themselves with no suicidal intent. This compares to 2% of men in the general population.. 54% of respondents had seriously considered taking their own life, compared to 13% of men in the general population who have ever considered suicide. 51% of respondents who had previously considered suicide now no longer felt suicidal. However, 15% of respondents still seriously considered suicide at least once a month. 27% of young gay/bisexual men have attempted suicide compared to 4% of the general population. Suicide attempts were most common in those young gay/bisexual men aged 14 to 20. 58% of those who had attempted suicide made only one attempt. 35% had made three or more attempts. 23% made five or more attempts. 54% of respondents who had attempted suicide had at some point deliberately injured themselves without wanting to take their own life.

[Joe Brummer]

The Study you are refering to was done by the dept of health and human services in 1989. It is still available online in a few places. I don't think Bush surpressed it. It was done in two parts.....

http://www.outproud.org/article_suicide.html

http://parentingteens.about.com/cs/g...uthsuicide.htm

http://www.yapmn.com/articles/N.html

http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProj...a/suicide.html

[studying]

Originally Posted by peaceboy

Here's just one example from one of the studies:
earch highlights: 95 Gay/Bi Males aged 15-26 (Average age = 20.8 years). 28% of respondents had at some point deliberately injured themselves with no suicidal intent. This compares to 2% of men in the general population.. 54% of respondents had seriously considered taking their own life, compared to 13% of men in the general population who have ever considered suicide. 51% of respondents who had previously considered suicide now no longer felt suicidal. However, 15% of respondents still seriously considered suicide at least once a month. 27% of young gay/bisexual men have attempted suicide compared to 4% of the general population. Suicide attempts were most common in those young gay/bisexual men aged 14 to 20. 58% of those who had attempted suicide made only one attempt. 35% had made three or more attempts. 23% made five or more attempts. 54% of respondents who had attempted suicide had at some point deliberately injured themselves without wanting to take their own life.

Let us strive to keep people safe and sound for a long lifetime.

Please help with the following as effectively as you presented suicidal ideation and actions. There is great gains to be made in sound logic.

The problem with this arguement is:

1) The testimony of the Bible strongly supports the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin.

Where? What texts? Nothing will help the Church from outside sources better then from inside the Bible. Is promiscuity a sin?

2) It ignores all the other areas of the Bible that modern day Christians overlook or do not apply literally to their lives, thus allowing ONLY those who use the Bible to condemn homosexuality to be the ones who can "make swiss cheese of the Bible."

Two wrongs making a right defines homosexual behavior as wrong. Desribing the wrongs others do is not sound Biblical exegisis.

Why? Sexuality was a done deal way back when. There is not much new sexually here and now. Just media.

Many people were taught many things about sex they didn't like. Especially when shown by another person. Coerced as it were. The goal of bringing peace to the world is in the hands of Christians of every stripe. The Bible being the arbiter of Christian beliefs.

What about honesty? Anatomy speaks volumes to a person's sexual behavior being right or wrong. It is not homophobia to disapprove of homosexual behavior. Where is the condemnation of disapproving same-sex sex come from "Biblically?"

Jesus mentioned that very fact. He is the cause he said. Can a father or mother invite a wiccan practicing child to a Christian Baptism?

That is the right of every Church body. They excommunicated can go to many other churches. Can they not? Or, they can repent and be restored.

Are there any numbers to support this terrible assertion? My gay friends seem very happy. Some are not Christians. And besides, many people believe untruths.

Where in the Bible is there support for your statement? Scripture calls for people to repent of sexual licentiousness. Sexual licentiousness is equated with sexual impurity/immorality in every case in scripture. The Bible's stance on male-female exclusivity is scripturally suported. It is modern man that is redefining homosexuality. Paul would have known it in minute detail as he literally lived in Greece. He even knew about Cretans.

And preaching the Gospel of repentance and forgiveness. Is that homophobia? Some claim it is. What is the "call for repentence" if it is not about "changing?"

Did Jesus ever give us a reason to accept homosexuality? It is clear that He was a practicing Jew. He even celebrated Hannukah. An extra-biblical Jewish celebration. The onus is on those that are introducing new definitions of solid beliefs to convince those holding onto their truth firmly, that they are wrong.

[QUOTE[But lets consider that you just can't find peace in your heart that homosexuality is not a sin. Then you become even more responsible for your words and actions, because if you believe a glbt person is sinning and you do or say something that would cause them to turn away from God, Jesus said in Matthew 18...

"5What's more, when you receive the childlike on my account, it's the same as receiving me.

Are you claiming homosexual sex is childlike behavior or choice? Jesus was literally talking about young children. Kids. The context is clear.

6"But if you give them a hard time, bullying or taking advantage of their simple trust, you'll soon wish you hadn't. You'd be better off dropped in the middle of the lake with a millstone around your neck.

Jesus is literally talking about young children. Not adults making choices. Or better yet; threatening adults to not lead children astray.

7Doom to the world for giving these God-believing children a hard time! Hard times are inevitable, but you don't have to make it worse--and it's doomsday to you if you do."

Should children be taught about sexuality any other way than "naturally?" WWJD? Doomsday for whom?

And over and over again, that is the effect of the homophobic, condemning stance of many Christians... people turning away from God.

Didn't Jesus tell the apostles that this would happen? And, to go on to people that would listen? Jesus even said that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented if they would have heard the Gospel. Homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals, not preaching the Bible. It seems clear that gays and lesbians are not going to bust down doors.

[QUOTE[That is a lot to be responsible for.[/QUOTE]

And Jesus gave us the instructions on how to be responsible. Or else. What else does "repent" mean?

Is that not Biblical? How is a mindset about repentance and forgiveness suddenly hate and intolerance?

[keltic63]

studying: I've read through this thread several times. I'm having a hard time attributing the quotes to different posters. can we break it down?

Perhaps the first question is this: as christians should we apply the Bible in a literal way? All of the Bible, or only some parts of it? This question will help us with the original "swiss cheese" analogy.