Lack of interest

[antonyh]

There does not seem to be a lot of interest in discussing Dr. King's speeches and how they apply to LGBT civil rights. I am going to discontinue this discussion for now. Maybe the time is not right.

[keltic63]

Don't be discouraged, I think the timing is bad. I know that I've been extremely busy completing the Dining Room, planning a party (1 hour from now) and busy at school with my classes. I've wanted to get into those threads, but have avoided them because I know I can't put the time into them that I want to.

january or february?

[Pablo Rafael]

Anthony,

I have thought the speeches were quite interesting and valuable.

I have noticed on the threads where we have had ongoing discussions that the participation drops off steadily over time. I like the continuity, but it doesn't seem to work well with most people here. Maybe a new speech every month?

Pablo

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

Anthony,

I have thought the speeches were quite interesting and valuable.

I have noticed on the threads where we have had ongoing discussions that the participation drops off steadily over time. I like the continuity, but it doesn't seem to work well with most people here. Maybe a new speech every month?

Pablo

I think that one speech a month might be a better approach for sure.

[Joe Brummer]

King has wonderful ideas about civil rights. BUT if he were alive today, what would he be doing? That is the discussion you should be having. We can learn from the past, but we cannot live there. Think more about what we can do with the lessons of king not his speeches.....

Just my 2 cents.....

[Zerbie]

Yeah, I think the timing is an issue. I read one of the speeches and loved reading it, but that was all I wound up taking time for: with regular life, planning travel (we're going all over the place these next few weeks), the usual end of semester chaos, and the round of holiday parties which we have to go to or we won't see our friends or colleagues for like, 2 months, I took a pass on clicking on these meaty (tofu-y?) threads for now.

It could be the holiday hustle and bustle coming up.

btw: I also like Joe's suggestion of speculating about how to proceed from where we are NOW, versus slipping into making MLK's peculiar niche a sort of textbook. Or, make it textbook if ya want, but understand that every time is unique, and be free to deviate from textbook.

Don't drop the discussion. But another time might work better, at least for me.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

King has wonderful ideas about civil rights. BUT if he were alive today, what would he be doing? That is the discussion you should be having. We can learn from the past, but we cannot live there. Think more about what we can do with the lessons of king not his speeches.....

Just my 2 cents.....

That is a great question Joe. If MLK were alive today and he was advocating for civil rights for the LGBT community, what would he do?

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Yeah, I think the timing is an issue. I read one of the speeches and loved reading it, but that was all I wound up taking time for: with regular life, planning travel (we're going all over the place these next few weeks), the usual end of semester chaos, and the round of holiday parties which we have to go to or we won't see our friends or colleagues for like, 2 months, I took a pass on clicking on these meaty (tofu-y?) threads for now.

It could be the holiday hustle and bustle coming up.

btw: I also like Joe's suggestion of speculating about how to proceed from where we are NOW, versus slipping into making MLK's peculiar niche a sort of textbook. Or, make it textbook if ya want, but understand that every time is unique, and be free to deviate from textbook.

Don't drop the discussion. But another time might work better, at least for me.

I guess I am from South Africa so I bring a different perspective to this. King followed the principles of Ghandi. He used Ghandi as a textbook so to speak. Nelson Mandela followed King, especially in the later stages of restoring democracy to South Africa, especially in the way he approached the white oppressor post-apartheid.

There are timeless principles here that have been embraced in various liberation movements. I agree that deviation may be necessary, but we cannot proceed forward without deliberate attention to the Civil Rights leaders of the past.

I just wonder if our LGBT movement has spent enough time in sustained thinking about civil rights activism from the past, whether Ghandi, King or Mandela. These men lead successful civil right movements that transformed nations.

I was talking to someone today about this. Harvey Milk was assassinated in 1978 about 30 years ago and we still don't have a federal hate crimes law that includes sexual orientation or gender identity. Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968 and one year later there was a federal hate crimes law including race.

It really gives me pause.

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I guess I am from South Africa so I bring a different perspective to this. King followed the principles of Ghandi. He used Ghandi as a textbook so to speak. Nelson Mandela followed King, especially in the later stages of restoring democracy to South Africa, especially in the way he approached the white oppressor post-apartheid.

It is not how the greats of nonviolence influenced each other, but how they influence us that counts today!

Originally Posted by antonyh

There are timeless principles here that have been embraced in various liberation movements. I agree that deviation may be necessary, but we cannot proceed forward without deliberate attention to the Civil Rights leaders of the past.

I sense here that you really value the lessons of the past and how they can guide us today. I agree. I also wonder if sometimes we don't get wrapped up in what has happen, what we think "should" happen and what we want to happen. Those are all diiferent things, but they all are void of our adversary and whatever happens is dependent on our adversary. We need their truth to blend with out truth to find a truth we can all live with in peace.

Originally Posted by antonyh

I just wonder if our LGBT movement has spent enough time in sustained thinking about civil rights activism from the past, whether Ghandi, King or Mandela. These men lead successful civil right movements that transformed nations.

I was talking to someone today about this. Harvey Milk was assassinated in 1978 about 30 years ago and we still don't have a federal hate crimes law that includes sexual orientation or gender identity. Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968 and one year later there was a federal hate crimes law including race.

It really gives me pause.

I sense you are frustrated with the shortcomings we have had. Me too! Remember that King believed and so do I that the Universe Leans to the side of justice. It is not about how fast we win our rights. It is about the justice of knowing people extended them to us for the right reasons.......

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

I sense you are frustrated with the shortcomings we have had. Me too! Remember that King believed and so do I that the Universe Leans to the side of justice. It is not about how fast we win our rights. It is about the justice of knowing people extended them to us for the right reasons.......

Let me challenge you with MLK's own words at the Great March on Detroit:

Then there is another cry. They say, "Why don’t you do it in a gradual manner?" Well, gradualism is little more than escapism and do-nothingism, which ends up in stand-stillism. [Applause] We know that our brothers and sisters in Africa and Asia are moving with jet-like speed toward the goal of political independence. And in some communities we are still moving at horse-and-buggy pace toward the gaining of a hamburger and a cup of coffee at a lunch counter. [Applause]

And so we must say, now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to transform this pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our nation. [Applause] Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of racial justice. Now is the time to get rid of segregation and discrimination. Now is the time. [Applause] (Now. Now)

And so this social revolution taking place can be summarized in three little words. They are not big words. One does not need an extensive vocabulary to understand them. They are the words "all," "here," and "now." We want all of our rights, we want them here, and we want them now. [Applause] [Recording interrupted]
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/p...n_detroit.html

When are we going to get off our complacent butts and demand full equality now? When are we going to march on Washington in the millions and demand equality now?

Maybe it is easier to just subscribe to the HRC cell phone alerts and visit their email web form and send our representatives an email from the comfort of our homes.

[Vanessa White]

Antony, I feel your frustration. I have to say, however, my desire to get off of my butt and get busy has come relatively late in my life, later than some of the young ones around here. I really believe that it is in part, because I am finally, fully, in all aspects, embracing my lesbianism as part of the whole of who I am, and loving it. I am ready and willing and able now, and so that means everyone should be ready to rally with me (us), right???

I am trying to be patient with all of the others that are struggling to "get there" in terms of activism. That is hard sometimes. BUt this is what I have to say about the lessons that Dr. King and the civil rights movement has to give us. I really wanted to participate in the weekly reading of the speeches, but agree with Keltic, I did not want to do it halfway, and never seemed to have a good chunk of time to read fully and process the words. Sure, maybe Dr. King's words and deeds are from a time long ago, and maybe we do need to move on and create our own realities to address our issues in the present. But, his speeches are less about learning how we should respond today. It is about being moved and inspired by someone who is filled with the energy for drastic change, and filled with the love of God and such human compassion that is so hard to find today, it seems. Simply, his speeches, his words, his VOICE, inspires me to want to fight the good fight TODAY. Not necessarily using every means he used forty years ago, but the spirit in his voice is much the same as the spirit and energy I possess in my heart.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

Antony, I feel your frustration. I have to say, however, my desire to get off of my butt and get busy has come relatively late in my life, later than some of the young ones around here. I really believe that it is in part, because I am finally, fully, in all aspects, embracing my lesbianism as part of the whole of who I am, and loving it. I am ready and willing and able now, and so that means everyone should be ready to rally with me (us), right???

You helped me to realize something. The first step to any effective civil rights activity is the necessity for oppressed people to embrace their full dignity as human beings. This was necessary in the African American community as well. King wrote in an article titled "Our Struggle":

Originally Posted by MLK

In time many Negros lost faith in themselves and came to believe that perhaps they really were what they had been told they were -- something less than men. So long as they were prepared to accept this role, racial peace could be maintained. It was an uneasy peace in which the Negro was forced to accept patiently injustice, insult, injury and exploitation.

Gradually the Negro masses in the South began to reevaluate themselves -- a process that was to change the nature of the Negro community and doom the social patters of the South. We discovered that we had never really smothered our self-respect and that we could not be at one with ourselves without asserting it. From this point on, the South's terrible peace was rapidly undermined by the Negro's new and courageous thinking and his ever-increasing readiness to organize and to act...

How many LGBT people have "lost faith in themselves"? There is an ever strengthening ex-gay movement. How many LGBT people reconcile themselves to a depreciated place in society to "keep the peace"?

Maybe there are not enough of us who really accept our full dignity as human beings and before the law. Maybe there is just not enough full acceptance of our dignity in the collective psychic consciousness of LGBT people.

Yet.

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

I am trying to be patient with all of the others that are struggling to "get there" in terms of activism.

That is a good response. I hope my frustration with the events of late do not indicate in any way that I'm not compassionate with those who struggle to embrace their sacred worth and dignity as human beings.

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

Sure, maybe Dr. King's words and deeds are from a time long ago, and maybe we do need to move on and create our own realities to address our issues in the present. But, his speeches are less about learning how we should respond today. It is about being moved and inspired by someone who is filled with the energy for drastic change, and filled with the love of God and such human compassion that is so hard to find today, it seems.

I agree that MLK's speeches provide motivation. But his methods are good too. Soulforce proves the point. Soulforce is a small non-profit organization that had disproportionate influence through the Equality Ride. They used the methods of non-violence espoused by Ghandi and King. It made a big splash. We need a lot more disciplined use of these methods.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by antonyh

L

When are we going to get off our complacent butts and demand full equality now? When are we going to march on Washington in the millions and demand equality now?

Maybe it is easier to just subscribe to the HRC cell phone alerts and visit their email web form and send our representatives an email from the comfort of our homes.

This, unfortunately, is too simplistic. There is no single foundational scaffolding on which a cohesive nationwide LGBT rights movement stands. Who could plan or organize demonstrations on that kind of scale? No organization I know of has the resources to mobilize anything like that. Rather than asking when, I think the better question, if we could answer it, would be to structure a step by step answer to "how?"

When I finished undergrad, I was very interested in possibly switching career gears to LGBT rights activism. I wrote over a dozen letters to organizations and made about a dozen phone calls asking how to become involved. I received one response: a letter telling me to become involved by reading the newspaper and voting for candidates who are friendlier to gay rights issues. Not a single opportunity did I find in a decade of trying - in fact, the message I kept getting was that there was no desire for activists or volunteers. I was just supposed to mail my yearly membership to the HRC and then sit around and do nothing.

In my experience, the single biggest obstacle I have faced as an activist, is a lack of opportunity to be active. That's why once I finally got an opportunity this past year or two, the floodwaters spilled over.

Now, I would be delighted to march for equality. Come to think of it, I have, with a few score other dedicated activists in the Phoenix area. But a more important issue is why, with a rights movement that is 30 years old, are so many of our marches and demonstrations still so small?

Vanessa raised issues of self-worth and by extension, internalized homophobia. Very definitely a part of the problem.

So what can we do, aside from marching or demonstrating in tiny little groups of a dozen or there?

(tired, cranky, and frustrated at the moment, sorry everyone.)

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Keshet

I chose to disagree. MLK spoke about an issue during another time in history. We can learn a lot from that history but situations of the times do not exactly compare. Besides, I had spoken to an African-American Christian who happens to be from a fundamental denonimation about the civil rights movement and the GLBT rights movement. We had a diversity class together which was part of my required college studies.
She informed me that many from the African-American community are very much offended by the comparison because in many of their eyes someone can choose not to be GLBT. "Someone who is born 'black' can't change that!", were her exact words. She listened with compassion to what I shared but she stated it doesn't change how many (straight African-American) of her own community feels about the issue.

The thing is who is our MLK? Who is speaking up for us now?

I used to wonder if what MLK had to say had any bearing on the struggle for civil rights that we face as LGBT people. I started listening to his speeches and reading his writing. As some of the quotes above indicate, he has a lot to say to us, not just about civil rights activism but the inner transformations that need to occur to make equality a reality.

I'm glad MLK did not say, "Ghandi worked in South Africa and India, his activism is of no use to us today." I'm glad that Mandela did not say, "King is useful in the American context, but has nothing to say to our civil rights movement in South Africa". We need to build on the shoulders of the greats and also allow the search light of their activism to shine on ours.

Some African American people find the use of MLK by the LGBT community to be offensive. During the Hate Crimes Bill debate, it was fundamentalist African American ministers that objected. This is a minority of the African American community. The great African American civil rights activist Representative John Lewis stood with us during the Hate Crimes Bill debate. Here is a link to his speech in the House on May 3, 2007:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIZyAxjjE8E

Coretta Scott King, the wife of MLK, also supported gay rights. You can read what she said here:
http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/coretta.html

During the Hate Crimes debate, the NAACP chastised the African American ministers for their opposition of the Hate Crimes Bill. These ministers were very vocal about disliking the use of MLK for the LGBT civil rights struggle.
http://www.hatecrimesbill.org/2007/0...calls-for.html

MLK's legacy is for the human race because justice is for all human beings. His legacy was historically lived out in the African American community, but his ideas are the property of the human race.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

This, unfortunately, is too simplistic. There is no single foundational scaffolding on which a cohesive nationwide LGBT rights movement stands. Who could plan or organize demonstrations on that kind of scale? No organization I know of has the resources to mobilize anything like that. Rather than asking when, I think the better question, if we could answer it, would be to structure a step by step answer to "how?"

Imagine if we had a leader at the Human Rights Campaign that had a vision to connect with the patchwork quilt of LGBT groups and to connect them into a coalition that could mobilize their constituencies for mass marches on Washington?

I think there is the idea that this kind of direct action is for the past. That is one reason that I appreciate Soulforce so much. I hope that as Soulforce continues it's work that it will stimulate thinking in the larger LGBT community about the use of direct action.

It is so tempting for us to think that the power of the Internet is all we need. Put up a site or a blog. Pound Washington with emails.

There is just no substitute for putting our bodies on the streets in large numbers.

We do have a leadership vacuum in this area...but we do have Soulforce

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Imagine if we had a leader at the Human Rights Campaign that had a vision to connect with the patchwork quilt of LGBT groups and to connect them into a coalition that could mobilize their constituencies for mass marches on Washington?

e

Even then we still have a serious problem. Suppose Joe Solmonese or his successor has such a vision. There is still the problem of all the other groups wanting to do things their way. Or if someone from SF or NGLTF or such comes up with a vision of unity, same problem, who is to say HRC or any of the state equality organizations are all going to shift to a nationally unified focus? Every leader and group has its own agenda it is working on. The movement is piecemeal. Personally, I don't see that changing in the near future unless something startling happens.

I've always believed the gay rights movement needs it's Gandhi or MLK, and have been waiting for such a persona to appear. But unless one does, we have to work with whatever means we currently have.

I agree that direct action probably does still need to be part of the picture. After 30-plus years, why is it that so many demonstrations are still so tiny? Our populace has been discouraged from expressing itself in that sort of way. Is that the entire answer? I have no idea.

[Vanessa White]

Don't be too hard on your good old self today. I feel discouraged frequently when I think of how daunting a task, or tasks, we seem to have ahead of us, yet so few of us to pursue it in active, 3D ways. I do agree and firmly state again that the external and especially, internalized homophobia that we have experienced in our lives, including our heterosexual allies, has created a direct impact on the lack of numbers that we see in direct action. I envision the possibility of a million of us on the Mall in DC, but first, we have to WANT to be visible, to be seen, to be recognized.

That is, as we all know, a very unique process for each one of us.

However, I have had a vision of something for the last few months, although not really sure how to have it come to fruition. I know that we have all joyfully written about the possibilities of having a SF picnic, meeting each other face to face. Along those lines, I think one way to unite the movement, at least to a degree, or to begin to discuss our differences, we should have a mid-country conference on just those topics, how to unite forces and create change LIVE. I think it is very easy for all of us, including myself, to be so inspired, determined, and ready to act when I am typing the words on a page. I had said last year that when Mia and I had first been trying to get a local activist group going, the overwhelming majority of those attending were/are straight allies, whom we need for sure, but my gay and lesbian friends were no where to be found.

That remains to be so, lack of generalized enthusiasm to get involved. I believe that many issues are ingrained in that, but homophobia, like with so many things we talk about here, is at the root by far.

That saddens me so much. But, I am not moved to quit.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Even then we still have a serious problem. Suppose Joe Solmonese or his successor has such a vision. There is still the problem of all the other groups wanting to do things their way. Or if someone from SF or NGLTF or such comes up with a vision of unity, same problem, who is to say HRC or any of the state equality organizations are all going to shift to a nationally unified focus? Every leader and group has its own agenda it is working on. The movement is piecemeal. Personally, I don't see that changing in the near future unless something startling happens.

I just don't see the big issue of a civil rights group having their own focus and mission but also tapping into a larger coalition for large direct actions. That way we have the unity and the diversity, the best of both worlds.

The big deal is that we need a leader at the HRC that really understand the importance of direct action and has the intellectual and oratorical abilities of MLK, someone who can build the coalition and inspire our community to get off the couch onto the streets.

I nominate Mel White.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

However, I have had a vision of something for the last few months, although not really sure how to have it come to fruition. I know that we have all joyfully written about the possibilities of having a SF picnic, meeting each other face to face. Along those lines, I think one way to unite the movement, at least to a degree, or to begin to discuss our differences, we should have a mid-country conference on just those topics, how to unite forces and create change LIVE. I think it is very easy for all of us, including myself, to be so inspired, determined, and ready to act when I am typing the words on a page. I had said last year that when Mia and I had first been trying to get a local activist group going, the overwhelming majority of those attending were/are straight allies, whom we need for sure, but my gay and lesbian friends were no where to be found.

This would be really, really awesome. Great idea Vanessa.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by antonyh

I just don't see the big issue of a civil rights group having their own focus and mission but also tapping into a larger coalition for large direct actions. That way we have the unity and the diversity, the best of both worlds.



.

Well I don't think one should preclude the other either. But one doesn't get all groups aboard a unified agenda. Someone will take offense for us pushing too hard and someone else will take offense for us being too compromising.