Harassment, a Circus and Lies

[Joe Brummer]

I think the conversation between Matt and Venari is going very well. I applaud both of you for remaining in a nonviolent space, Gandhi believed that apologizes were a source of enlightenment. I am gald to see you are both engaging that. I also think you are two are on to something, and both seek the truth (me too!). I would encourage you both to not be distracted by the other conversations happening, and concentrate on this good dialog you have going. If need be remove yourselves and go to PM's. It is a good conversation with much to be gained!

Peace and love,
Joe

[pxlguy]

OK, guys. Sorry to make your reading difficult. Sometimes my fingers work faster than my thinking; or maybe its the other way around; or maybe they are in are race to see who can get what out first. Who knows? At any rate, I'll try to cut some breaks in here. Sorry.

COLOR="Blue"]"What of the student who has some understanding of their sexuality, but is deeply religious, and still believes that Christian school is a very appropriate option? They enroll in hope, but their internal struggles continue or intensify rather than abate."[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Again, it is about choices. If the person believes that a Christian school is an appropriate option, at least they will learn that is not for them, and they can transfer to another school that better meets their needs. They must decide which road to take. Obviously, some gay Christians can, and do, navigate their way through these institutions. And while it is true that perhaps, people's circumstances change, with perseverance, determination, and God's help, people do overcome obstacles that may clutter their way.

"Now, I think you know there is a difference, and to say there is not is a pretense that masquarades as good reasoning. The truth is...heterosexuals receive no condemnation for their sexuality."

I think your above statement is true. Now, I don't want to get into semantics here, but we are not talking just about sexuality. We are talking about sexual behavior. And that is what gets both straights and gays in trouble in these schools. And I don't know of any of these Christian schools that condone any kind sexual behavior outside the realm of marriage. But many would say that gays cannot marry, so that negates that idea. But if you think about it, the majority of college students are not married anyway. And the rules would be applied equally to both straigh guys engaged in sexual activity just the same as it would to gay guys.

"Lesbians, gays and bisexuals on the other hand are roundly condemned by these Christian institutions as being comparable to such things as pedophilia, murder, rape, etc."

I have never heard gays, lesbians and bisexuals being compared to murderers. And Christians would be hard-pressed to make a comparative to pedophiles, considering all the priests found out within their own inner sanctums. True, some radicals will make statements such as these. But the sources are highly suspect to begin with.

Originally Posted by theMattPerry :
Maybe we can all listen again to president Anderson (of North Central) compare us to pedophiles and practitioners of bestiality and then, in his final words, threaten us with hell if we disagree with him: here's the MP3 just in case:

And as we all know, there are people who actually believe these sorts of lies, but are we ourselves not intelligent enough to discern the truth, and realize that these are personal beliefs and are not Christian-based theological truths? And when 95% of the rest of the population basically believes this is crock, what will we actually believe? Now, let me be clear: I do not approve of such statements, and are, in MY opinion, not christian-based, and neither are they Christ-like words. But I still believe that each person has a right to their own beliefs, and we, in turn, also have a right to interpret how we view those beliefs.

"You use the analogy above of a renter who decides he wants to smoke in a non-smoking facility. This analogy relies on the common argument that homosexuality is just a decision that people make."

This was not my point, I think you misunderstood my intent here. We all know that homosexuality is not a decision one makes, like turning a faucet off and on. My point is that the choices we make in the context of who we are affects how people view us. For example, my parents would never allow me to bring home a boy and sleep in the same bed with him, and I would never do that out of having respect for my parents. But when I am in my own space, that belongs to me, they, in turn, would never tell me that I cannot do that. If I choose to usurp my parents in their own home, then I know I had better be prepared for whatever consequences that might entail. And the same concept applies when attending college. When I am on campus, I must follow the rules, or face the consequences of non-compliance. When I am off campus, I am no longer under the schools' administration, and what I do then is my choice, which has no effect on the school itself.

"Those who hold and teach such attitudes like to say (again disingenuously) that they do not promote violence. And when gays, lesbians, transgendered folk and bisexuals are being beaten, shot, or otherwise experience violence from people who sincerely believe that God hates us, they cry and weep...as if they didn't plant the seeds of that hatred in society that now blossoms into pain for us."

I would tend to disagree with this statement. It is not Christians who plant such seeds as this, I mean, there are many people who have something against someone, and it is not necessarily based on religion. I think we all live in a crazy, mixed-up, not so pretty world, where anything can pretty much happen to anyone at any time. Sure, the far-right wing espouses a hatred, but most people understand that they are living on the fringe, anyway. We can only be fortunate that there are not more Fred Phelps types in the world.

[closetcougar]

Yeah, maybe we should just sit back and let these religious universities decide when we should have the same rights everybody else has.. I'm sure they were almost coming around until soulforce screwed things up.

[Dash]

Originally Posted by pxlguy

Sure, the far-right wing espouses a hatred, but most people understand that they are living on the fringe, anyway.

Well...perhaps I'm too tuned-in to the the rhetoric of groups like Focus on the Family. I read a lot of GLBT news and blogs, and see their kind of "fringe-babble" again and again. Or perhaps you aren't encountering all the things that are actually being said in our society about us. I think perhaps it would be good for you to take a closer look at the dreadful mass of anti-gay commentary that comes out of the religious right. Just think how much it informs the political process! I think if you followed all the states that are looking at anti-gay marriage legislation you would get a better picture of how religious rhetoric pollutes our society with damaging hatred.

We may just disagree on the issue of the Church's puritanism informing society's hatred of our sexuality. I guess that's ok, but that will probably hinder our ability to find any common ground regarding the motives, purposes and methods of the Equality Riders. For me, my support of them is based on this larger aspect of the Church's influence on society as well as the individual pain that some people experience within the universities. I feel the two sides of the sword are inseparable, and both cut our people deeply.

I'm glad if I mis-understood the intent of your analogy. Your clarification makes me feel better.

Reading your response about people transferring out of these schools made me think: what if instead of expelling students that are gay or struggling, they addressed the issue but assisting them in a transfer to another school?

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

I think the conversation between Matt and Venari is going very well. I applaud both of you for remaining in a nonviolent space, Gandhi believed that apologizes were a source of enlightenment. I am gald to see you are both engaging that. I also think you are two are on to something, and both seek the truth (me too!). I would encourage you both to not be distracted by the other conversations happening, and concentrate on this good dialog you have going. If need be remove yourselves and go to PM's. It is a good conversation with much to be gained!

Peace and love,
Joe

Thanks Joe --

I think we are on to something too. Perhaps I will send Venari a P message tomorrow to see if he about and/or if he's found out anything more about what happened at the school

Is it unreasonable to suppose that if physical violence occured we would be hearing from North Central right about now?

I'll be on the lookout for other sources of information -- anyone who has any first hand knowledge please let me know.

The search for truth together continues!

[Joe Brummer]

Remember that all the "facts" fly about and somewhere in that lies truth. The ultimate search for god, is the search for truth. I pray you both find it, but I believe you two have a productive conversation going and at all costs that dialog should continue........Anything less would be violence.

[dewdrop_world]

Had some other thoughts today (hindsight is a wonderful thing). I wondered what creative responses NCU students might have come up with before ER's appearance. If the administration declared the doors closed, I would love to have seen what would happen if some NCU students invited the riders in as their personal guests, to have lunch or something. Would the administration have been able to stop it?

We saw this from students at Liberty -- even when they were advised not to have any contact with the riders, some of them went out anyway. So it may have been a missed opportunity at NCU. That's not to minimize the hurt feelings, but I'm wondering if the students really had no choice but to passively accept the administration's position.

James

[Venari]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

I wondered what creative responses NCU students might have come up with before ER's appearance. If the administration declared the doors closed, I would love to have seen what would happen if some NCU students invited the riders in as their personal guests, to have lunch or something. Would the administration have been able to stop it?

So it may have been a missed opportunity at NCU. That's not to minimize the hurt feelings, but I'm wondering if the students really had no choice but to passively accept the administration's position.

Dewdrop,

First I want to say NCU is always a closed campus. For the fact all the buildings have classrooms and dorms. So it is extremely rare for any outside group to be allowed access to any building besides the CLC, College Life Center, which is where Nate Ruch gave his interviews that day and where the administration offices are held.

I know many students were planning out reaching out to the Equality Riders. But when things went the way they did the plans were scrapped. Above that the students were asked not to interact with the Equality Riders but were not prohibited from doing so... this was more to preventive as to warn students if we made a scene we would face consequences, that is if any student went out there and started a yelling match.

So we were in a rock and a hard place, we couldn’t allow a group who’s motives were suspect access to the buildings where students were housed and we were cautious about interactions that if one side started a confrontation.

As I said before I would be more then willing to organize student leaders to sit down the Jacob and Herrin and talk about what they feel and what we fell to gather a better understanding. I know several gay and lesbian students that would be willing to do so. But I cannot seek them out to arrange such a meeting.

-Venari

[dewdrop_world]

Venari,

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't understand the physical restrictions.

Mostly I was wondering what would have happened if some students, prior to ER's arrival, had contacted the ride with the message, "Despite what our administration says, we want to meet with you and have a dialogue, off-campus if need be." My guess is that it would have been well received and it might have prevented the more demonstrative action (though I can't say so for sure). I know at least that if I were on the bus, a little gesture of defiance from the students in advance would have carried a lot of weight with me.

I hope I won't be misunderstood--I understand the feelings of isolation and anger (I would feel the same if some anti-gay people decided to picket my house). While I understand the motivation for the action, I'm pretty conflicted about it as well. To my misgivings, I feel I must add the regret that there was not a creative response from the students in time to change the situation.

James

[Venari]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

Mostly I was wondering what would have happened if some students, prior to ER's arrival, had contacted the ride with the message, "Despite what our administration says, we want to meet with you and have a dialogue, off-campus if need be." My guess is that it would have been well received and it might have prevented the more demonstrative action (though I can't say so for sure). I know at least that if I were on the bus, a little gesture of defiance from the students in advance would have carried a lot of weight with me.

From what I know a few students e-mailed Jacob and Herrin and offered their "inside" view point and were given the brush off.

Also we had planned to "reach out” but after some of the things said about NCU before the visit we decided against it. As I said before I would now be willing to gather student representatives and meet with them to discuss what happened. But any deeper involvement is pretty much out of the question at the moment.

-Venari