Conflict

[tdogg]

That's a tough situation for you pnggrad, but also for your wife. If you haven't lived through a similar childhood, you won't ever get a real feel for how it feels to be conditionally loved. It's tough, tougher on some than others. Even though you say it took years for your wife to finally make stand for you with her mother, you need to really 'feel' how that must have taken some real courage on your wife's part. It's a good start.

When resolving conflict, you got to get through it, get over it, and then get on. That means both of you learning from the experience, tossing it around, planning on how to get through future conflicts with your current knowledge and experience, and them moving forward in your life together. Easier said than done. But, I think your wife deserves some consideration and support in the steps she has taken, even if you feel it took too long. You obviously love each other, and this was obviously not an easy thing for her to do.

You yearn for her support, I'm sure she yearns from yours. Give her some props, but also, don't neglect self-respect. Should it occur again, I also agree with others to simply not attend the function until she gets it right. Counseling, separately and together is an excellent idea. Not only to learn conflict resolution and to help heal and correct, but as a preventative measure too. It's one of the very best tools you can use in maintaining a loving and effective relationship. Good luck with this, it's really not an easy thing to deal with. I know, I have family that refuse to even discuss my relationship, my partner and me being gay. It hurts, to know they are hurting, disappointed, angered, etc., and to not spend time with them especially during the holidays. I'm fortunate in that I have many loving family and friends, and my partner's family fully accepts me.

[pnggrad79]

Tdogg,
I agree with you. Believe me when I say, I did grow up this way as well. The old "If I don"t acknowledge the elephant in the room, then it really isn't there" way of life. Hell, my own mother, when I call her, even if its 11 p.m. at night, will spend maybe 3 minutes on the phone with me and then have to rush off because something is on the stove about to boil over, or burn. I haven't been to their house in 3 years because I am not welcome if my wife comes with me. So this garbage exists on both sides. The difference is that my parents have absolutely no contact with me. They don't call, write, or visit me. I could die and they would never know, and vice versa. Her parents, on the other hand, marginally accept us, allow us to come over, visit and call. Us being gay is ok, but don't tell anyone else.

I do give my wife credit for taking the stand she did. I just wish it wasn't contrived. I wish I didn't have to beg for it. But at least she did it for whatever reason. The effect is the same, I guess.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

I do give my wife credit for taking the stand she did. I just wish it wasn't contrived. I wish I didn't have to beg for it. But at least she did it for whatever reason. The effect is the same, I guess.

What's that old saying? Don't kick a gift horse in the mouth? I agree with Harmless, now that your beloved has gone to bat for you, now is not the time to keep turning the rock over- or throw it in the future. Tough to do- boy- do I know that. The resentment that can fester over this stuff gets to me every holiday.

In my own situation, I have a niece who is having a wedding celebration that my sister - her mother- invited me to in February. Trouble is, this is the same sister who completely ignored the wedding invitation hubby and I sent her when we got married. Know what? I'm not going to be a dick, but I'm not going to let it go either. I'm not showing up, good gay uncle, gifts and all, pretending that sis and I are hunky-dory. The other twist is that that my neice invited us to come: hey- I will honor that. She accepts me and my guy- and even mentioned- when I saw her a few days ago over the holiday's- what a raw deal her parents gave me and my guy.

But there I was, at my parent's house for the holiday's, and my sister is asking me in an anxious voice: "Are you coming to to the wedding celebration?" And I'm looking at her like "What actually do you think is going on here?" I said: "Probably." Meanwhile- I'm surrounded by the rest of the family- 4 siblings- parent's -neices & nephews- and it's not my manner to address an old wound in front of 15 people.

But you know what, the heterosexuls don't get to have it both ways. It's not the job of us nice-wanting-to-get-along gay people to play along with their scripts.

My sister is getting a carefully worded email today. I'm not going to rake her over the coals of my old anger. But I do want her to know that my coming to her daughter's wedding celebration is a lot more graciousness than she showed to me and my guy 7 years ago.

It would be stupid- in my mind- for me to play tit-for-tat. But that elelphant in the room? It's going to be addressed. And at this point, I'm not concerned about getting an apology for past bad manners as much as I am about not letting another moment of disparity go by unaddressed. Sis can react however she wants to.

What does this have to do with your situation?

I think one thing here is for us all to learn to address things as they arise as best we can. Letting things go- falling into the same pattern over and over again- is soul killing.

We don't have to play into other people's dysfunction to make them 'happy'. Hell! They're not happy in the first place!

I sent you much peace.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Hell, my own mother, when I call her, even if its 11 p.m. at night, will spend maybe 3 minutes on the phone with me and then have to rush off because something is on the stove about to boil over, or burn. I haven't been to their house in 3 years because I am not welcome if my wife comes with me. So this garbage exists on both sides. The difference is that my parents have absolutely no contact with me. They don't call, write, or visit me. I could die and they would never know, and vice versa.

This is what I did years ago- and it made a difference (I've written about this elsewhere here).

A wise counselor told me that I had to give what I wanted to have/get. Boy that made me mad. But I realized, after a lot of fussing and grinding to teeth, that she was right. And I think one could make a case for this being the essence of the Golden Rule.

What did I do?

I started calling my parents and ending the conversation by telling them that I loved them.

I gave them what I wanted them to give me. I reached out to them.

Oh....the words seems surreal when I said them. And there would be a long pause on the other end of the line. And it took more than several conversations for them to 'get-with-the-program'.

It'a about establishiing a connection. One that is based on your reality, not there's.

In my case, I had to haul my parents up to some semblance of manners. Now? My Dad is 80 and even hugs me when I see him (never did that when I was a kid) and includes my hubby in greetings etc. This takes time.

Now. I know that each circumstance is different. Your parent's my be hardliner's, but what have you got to lose? In my case, telling my parent's I loved them was the ONE ACTION that resulted in the establishment of some kind of relationship.

Maybe you need to say something else- you are the best judge of that. But my point here is that you are the one who can/must start the change.

And that's that motto of this site, right?

Be the Change You Seek..

Wear them down with love.

And at least, you will have, in the process, generated some love and compassion for yourself. That's one thing I've learned too. We really do get what we give.

[Vanessa White]

Png: I have been reading this thread over the last couple of days, and really haven't had anything new to offer, it has all been said in various, loving ways. But this message of Daniel's resonates with me the most. Sure, parents, other family, friends, coworkers- many of us have them in our lives that aren't willing, or seemingly willing, to accept us for who we are. However, to respond in anger, resentment, and ill feeling, although very hard to resist, will bring more of the same ten fold. Give the love to receive the love. Go on "as if", which is also a surefire way to love YOURSELF for being who you, and your wife, are. When I say that, what I mean is, I anticipate in my mind, at almost every turn, that I will encounter persons who do not embrace me (literally and figuratively) because of my sexual orientation. However, I do all in my power to not let that penetrate my heart, because if I do, I reject MYSELF as well, as well as those that are in my relationship with me. I need to listen to my heart, even if it has been hurt in the past, and call up the most loving parts of it to give back, or give freely if it has not been given in awhile, or even, as in Daniel's case, in a lifetime. I am convinced of several things about humans: one of them is that just because a person does not say they love us, or seem to express it in their actions, doesn't make it so. I think it is BECAUSE of their love for us, that they act the quirky ways that they do sometimes. Not an excuse, but a way to understand.

I remember that when I was growing up, especially teen years, my mom was the first person that I would talk with about things bothering me. i viewed her as my best friend, confidante. But, she hardly ever hugged me, and when she did, it was limp. I just kept hugging her, telling her I loved her, because it was what I felt in my heart of hearts.

Now, she is hard pressed to let go when she does latch on to me. And, she tells me she loves me A LOT. She still has other areas that are removed from me, but I have seen her growth. If I had expressed rejection of sorts to her, I think the reaction would have been totally different.

I hope that this helps.......

[pnggrad79]

Daniel and Vanessa,
Your advice was well received and I would love to do that. I believe in what you both said to me. Here's the problem though.

Do I go without my wife to family gatherings like Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc? Because they will not even let her in the house and if they did, it would be an extremely uncomfortable situation for all concerned. I am boycotting family gatherings to make a point-it is simply unfair that my sisters and brother can bring their spouses but I can't bring mine. Moreover, I do not want to go without my wife, because I think it somehow diminishes the relationship and gives them what they want. They WANT me to view my relationship as less than theirs. I don't and won't denigrate it.

I don't want to go alone. I am married and I feel my place is with my wife. To go alone, in my view, tells my wife that I value holidays with my family and not her. See my point?

I could call and end the conversation (which is all of 3 minutes) with "I love you", but would probably get hung up on. I could do it regardless.

I could write letters and include information about my life, my wife and what's going on. They would go unanswered and hell for all I know, thrown away.

I could just bring my wife and show up, and cause them to have to treat her right, because they don't want to cause a scene.

I don't know what to do. I don't know what the right thing to do is in order to accomplish what you are suggesting I do, and honoring my wife's place in my life, too.

[Vanessa White]

You have to handle this in the way that is best for you, and for her. And, of course, that is not an exact science. So, it is not infallible. That being said, from your last post, it sounds as if you have a lot of "I coulds" that you at least have called up in your mind. One, all of them for that matter, take a great deal of courage and perseverance, and won't be comfortable at first for some, if not all, of the parties involved. One of the keys is that you can never control what others do, or how they will react, or not react. You can only do what you do, what feels right within your heart and with your wife's heart, as the best way, the most self-loving way to handle this. My partner and I have not spent holidays apart, but even though it is important to me not to, I would if it meant that the situation called for something different. We still have to come back to our solid foundation, and that is why these situations can destroy relationships. You have to make steps that may not be what you are both fully in favor of, but that best serve your marriage to one another and allow you to be true to that commitment to one another.

[tdogg]

Pnggrad, I get how you feel on this one. The first Christmas my partner and I were fully together, one of my sisters was having a difficult time deciding if she was even going to invite me. She spoke with my other sister about it via email and I inadvertently got the email message too. I basically told her if it made her decision easier I would be spending the holidays with my partner so if she was not welcome in my sisters home I would not be going alone.

My reasoning was that I wanted to spend the date with my partner more than I wanted to spend it with my family without her. My sister explained that we weren't welcome together (partner not welcome) as she must protect her children from an open lesbian relationship (no reason why). Since, I have never received another invitation from her other than a recent home decorating party where my partner was not included. I opted not to go because of that and well, home decorating parties are just not my thing.

I have extended many invitations for visits, holiday dinners, etc. to my sister and her family and she always has an excuse why she can't make it. Cards, presents and mailings come to me only when they do come. She never mentions my partner or my relationship and has no interest in obtaining any knowledge about GLBTs or that part of my life. Avoidance is her answer to the conflict within her. I seriously doubt her children would care, other than perhaps there are gay jokes rampant in the household??

My partner is also not welcome in my parents' home (stepmother decision, father disabled and no decision making). I am reluctant to visit, mainly because then I have to deal with my stepmom's crap, feelings, selfishness and religious issues (she is VERY fundamental). That means I neglect visiting my dad. Several months ago my felon brother moved in with them, he gets much more care and attention than my father and I hear my father pretty much sticks in his bedroom 24/7. So, avoidance is no longer my option, I will be going there soon to check on my dad.

I'll need to get up all my courage, reserve and emotional strength to deal with this, but my father is worth it and my priority right now. Perhaps this will the avenue to confronting my stepmom and even my sister and force them to think about me and my life somewhat. Either begin to see the light or come right out and ban me from their lives.

[pnggrad79]

Tdogg,
Thanks for your support. I know this a tough situation to deal with. When my sister sent her Christmas card to me, she included me, and my two girls, but not my partner. I felt so angry, but did not retaliate. My partner was very mature about it. She said, "They did exactly what I expected of them." I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "I am not offended because I expect them to include me. They never have so it doesn't give me a reason to expect they ever will. I would drop dead if they ever did include me." Interesting perspective, to say the least.

[tdogg]

Thanks for bringing this type of discussion up. It really helps me with my family issues, as I often really don't how how to react or what to do. It helps to know I'm not alone. Daniel is right, we just need to handle it the best way we know how and can.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Daniel and Vanessa,

Your advice was well received and I would love to do that. I believe in what you both said to me. Here's the problem though.

Do I go without my wife to family gatherings like Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc? Because they will not even let her in the house and if they did, it would be an extremely uncomfortable situation for all concerned. I am boycotting family gatherings to make a point-it is simply unfair that my sisters and brother can bring their spouses but I can't bring mine. Moreover, I do not want to go without my wife, because I think it somehow diminishes the relationship and gives them what they want. They WANT me to view my relationship as less than theirs. I don't and won't denigrate it.

I don't want to go alone. I am married and I feel my place is with my wife. To go alone, in my view, tells my wife that I value holidays with my family and not her. See my point?

Gotcha!

I could call and end the conversation (which is all of 3 minutes) with "I love you", but would probably get hung up on. I could do it regardless. Yep....you could.

I could write letters and include information about my life, my wife and what's going on. They would go unanswered and hell for all I know, thrown away. Nothing tried...nothing gained.

I could just bring my wife and show up, and cause them to have to treat her right, because they don't want to cause a scene. Ooooooh!

This sounds like a risky plan worth trying, that is, if your gal feels safe doing it, and YOU feel like you can make matters safe for her- by taking charge. That's YOUR job. She can't be there to defend you.

Got that?

I can't emphasize this enough. I had to learn to defend my guy from my family's dysfunction. I had to train them to treat him better. Which means that I also had to stop letting them walk all over me too. And it was my hubby who pointed this out to me....and I didn't like facing that for one minute. (Damn! This stuff gets complicated!)

When I had my first boyfriend and Thanskgiving rolled around and my mother basically disinvited him, I laid it on the line. I said: "If he doesn't come, I'm not either." That was risky, but I was ready to take that risk and not play by my parent's script. My mother chose to include us both. That was a good thing, because our subsequent relationship has been an outgrowth of that. Had she chosen differently, I don't know where I would be right now. Maybe in your shoes.

If you are boycotting and all the 'power' of the situation is in your parent's hands, then it sound's like a 'power struggle'. And that ain't love.

I think there are two things to do here: Love your parents and ASSERT your personhood i.e. take back your power (showing up with your gal would be one way to do that).

What about a surprise visit? One they aren't expecting and can't control? As in- Bring gifts. Flowers to your mom etc. Kill them with kindness. The thing is to stop playing by THEIR rules.

I don't know what to do. I don't know what the right thing to do is in order to accomplish what you are suggesting I do, and honoring my wife's place in my life, too.

I hear you.

All that I've said aside, my sense is that you could benefit from some brainstorming with a couple's counselor, someone who is clued into your dynamic as a couple as that of your families.

I only have my own experience to draw from, and everyone's relationship with their family is different. But I do know that love, when expressed, it like water on a rock: it takes time, but eventually, the water wears the stone away, even if only a little bit.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by tdogg

My reasoning was that I wanted to spend the date with my partner more than I wanted to spend it with my family without her. My sister explained that we weren't welcome together (partner not welcome) as she must protect her children from an open lesbian relationship (no reason why).

Yeah, I got the same exact thing from my brother, had to protect his child, no explanation. I told him I was so glad he brought up that he had to protect his child, because I also had to protect my 3 kids by not exposing them to someone with his ignorance and bigoted morals, not to mention of his religious background. Boy, that pi*sed him off!

I also got that with grandmother, she "doesn't approve" and invited me alone to her house last year for Christmas. I told her that if my life partner was not welcomed, then I would not be there as I was spending the hoildays with her and all my remaining holidays with her. We were building a life together and I was, at 37, WAY to old to need or care about her approval. I informed her that if she wanted to see me, or the great grands, she needed to come to OUR home and treat Ellie with the respect she would anyone elses spouse. She finally came here this year when I refused to call, talk to or bring my children over to her. She was polite and looked as uncomfortable as a Nun in a Southern Baptist church.

My father was at least honest and said that he was not comfortable and may never be but he would meet her. He did and actually he is the one that didn't cause near the fuss I thought he would. He actually asked us to lunch and talked a lot with my wife.

My mother is supportive and so is her partner of 15 years. They have always had my back and supported me. She is so glad I am happy finally and have someone who treats me well. She told me that I need to stop appoligizing for the way I was born. She said God made me to love women and that he don't make junk! She also said I should love fully because if I did not, then I would be throwing his gift away and calling my self a mistake. My mom rocks!

It is sad for me that we all have the same things to go through to be whole people.

[pnggrad79]

Tyme,
Your mom is gay?

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Tyme,
Your mom is gay?

No, she uses the term "partner" because she is not married. She says it sounds much more adult than 'boyfriend' and much more permanent than 'lover'. Actually, he has alwasy treated me like his daughter, he has 2 biological ones himself. He just took me in along with his girls.

That does remind me of when she was first divorced from my dad about 15 years ago. She asked me if I would love her any less than I do now if she were a lesbian, at this time, I was not yet out to her(or anyone except myself). I told her it would not make a difference to me. She said she was just asking because my brother was upset about the divorce and had refused to talk to her. She told me she hoped that I could come to her about anyting becuase she would always love me and support me no matter what. I did not see it at the time but she was indirectly asking me about myself being a lesbian. Talk about in the closet! I had that door nailed firmly shut!

[pnggrad79]

ok, sorry to assume. The word partner just conjures up gay or lesbian in my mind.