Why do Straights hate gays? by Larry Kramer

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by antonyh

This is an interesting discussion because the temptation to bitterness is always there. MLK continually exhorted people to avoid the temptation to bitterness. I wonder why that is?

Was the question a real question? Or rhetorical?

In case it was a real question: because bitterness does not get the job done. Bitterness is armor, decorated with assumptions, rusted into place. If you're being bitter, you are seeing the past, not the present. Therefore your actions can easily misfire and not achieve your intentions. Bitterness kills the life energy, the creative energy. In order to achieve anything in life, we need creative energy.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Was the question a real question? Or rhetorical?

In case it was a real question: because bitterness does not get the job done. Bitterness is armor, decorated with assumptions, rusted into place. If you're being bitter, you are seeing the past, not the present. Therefore your actions can easily misfire and not achieve your intentions. Bitterness kills the life energy, the creative energy. In order to achieve anything in life, we need creative energy.

Somewhat rhetorical. Amen Sister. I think you're emerging from your funk! Lookout world

[Alecto]

In Kramer's more recent speech about the whatever-it-was anniversary of ACTUP...I don't know if "bitter" is the right word. I saw bitter, yes, but I also saw...deflated. I saw a man who really did believe in his younger days that he would save the world. And he's made some great and awesome changes, but...it's like Moses come to realize he won't see the promised land, y'know? And maybe that goes some way towards making him a little more hard and a little less optimistic. But, yeah. All those things you said you loved about him...they're what drew me to him too.

[Gennee]

As a transgender individual, I see the situation as one who believes that we are making our presence felt. In order to attain rights one has to be willing to stick their neck out. I have been crossdressing for 2 1/2 years now and the day is coming when I will tell the greater society that this is who I am.

I believe that young people are more open and receptive to LGBT causes. I was interviewed at the Veteran's Day parade by graduate students and they seemed to be genuinely interested in why I am what I am. Look at all the controversy in the various dnominations. Perhaps god is moving in a new way.

Gennee

[tymejumper]

maybe we should just decide who to vote for on this website and all agree to go and vote. There are so many gay people out there that if we really extended our voting power, the earth would shake!

I as a woman would lean to Hillary but no one seems to have a 'straight'(no pun intended)answer about what they will do for us, the LGBT people whom need to have some answers! I know I am not voting for that idot in Utah thats for sure!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

maybe we should just decide who to vote for on this website and all agree to go and vote. There are so many gay people out there that if we really extended our voting power, the earth would shake!

I as a woman would lean to Hillary but no one seems to have a 'straight'(no pun intended)answer about what they will do for us, the LGBT people whom need to have some answers! I know I am not voting for that idot in Utah thats for sure!

When I first read your note, I thought you were suggesting that we all write-in someone from this forum as a write-in candidate!!!

[Alecto]

Originally Posted by u-dog

This is the reason that everyone needs to either HAVE children of their own or forge significant lifelong friendships WITH children regardless of whether we are gay, straight, male, female, fertile, infertile, whatever. Having children and young people in your life makes the whole "Moses thing" SO MUCH more bearable. Its not so important to reach the promised land yourself if you know that someone in the next generation will... Its why TigerXero's Thanksgiving experience (boyfriend being accepted at Dad's family) made me so happy.

I'll go with "younger generation", but...in all seriousness, I kind of just don't like children.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

When I first read your note, I thought you were suggesting that we all write-in someone from this forum as a write-in candidate!!!

I vote for Spongebob!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

I vote for Spongebob!

Somebody sign him up for the forum, then.

[ladyinred]

Perhaps a question should be asked along these lines? Why should straights hate gays?

[Alecto]

I don't know as I understand what you mean by that. I thought the whole point was "they kinda shouldn't, but there's an awful lot seem to anyway".

[ladyinred]

What legitimate reasons do straight people have for hating gays? Homophobia? The idea perhaps ,"Ick , I don't want to be around those people I might catch what they have?" Who knows?

[BruceChris]

"Insecurity about one's own heterosexuality". And too many people seem to think that the easiest way to make the feeling go away is to do your best to make the homosexuals go away. Or at least go back in the closet.

So for any one of us to stay in, or go back into the closet is actually making life easier for them, or at least making it easier for them to not have to face their own feelings, and begin to be honest with themselves. It also allows us to not have to face OUR feelings, at least temporarily.

So we can both avoid anything unpleasant, like having to grow.

P&L, BC

[Vanessa White]

I say worse, because it really feels worse inside. I mean, I have had comments and/or gestures made toward me when members of the general public have assumed I was gay, and that has been obnoxious and rude. But, what gets to me more is feeling like others just TOLERATE my gayness, almost like they HAVE to, not because they really embrace that part of who I am. And that gets to me in a real deep, personal way. Because, I love the feeling of being on a cloud because I am fully, totally in love, because we have a well adjusted, beautiful daughter, because we stand for something important and worthwhile, because we are human and compassionate and loving, but when it comes to the fact that my partner is female and not male, it is like some people just nod their heads up and down, smiling as I speak, with neither a clue, nor a desire to really know more. You know, that when a person does ask questions about "how did you know?", or other things that seem not to be some type of voyeurism, I appreciate it, because at least someone is interested in knowing about me and my experience. My coworker who is married to a man and has two children, said that it must get so frustrating for me to have to constantly need to justify who I am, or at least feel like I have to a lot of the time. And she is right. It is unnerving, tiring, frustrating, and creates heartache for me also.

[Alecto]

Maybe it's a matter of realism, but...I don't want or need everyone's approval. There are some folks in my personal life that it would be really ideal to have their approval (and I think I'm fortunate enough that I do), but as for random people I meet, the bare minimum requirement is literal tolerance. If you can't be professional at work because I'm gay, YOU have a problem, and it's not me. If you can't act like a normal productive citizen while there's gay people in front of you, YOU have a problem and it's not me. If you can do all of that and treat the people around you like human beings, that's the bare minimum. I don't really ask for anything more than that (unless you think you're one of my friends: I do require more of my friends).

[Vanessa White]

Hey Alecto: Thank you for your thoughts. I really believe that I don't feel the need to have the approval of others. However, in terms of the human condition, I just crave and desire that those around me, do more than just tolerate me. Which is what I try to do for others, not just tolerate, but embrace and gain understanding of other people and their experiences.

I guess for me therein lies the dilemma, or the disgust. It seems at times that some heterosexual people just don't want to understand. They don't want to take the time to understand. That is why when persons like Zerbie or others that are allies come along, it is like a gift from heaven. It isn't just tolerance, but true understanding. In some ways, I understand why Larry Kramer feels so gloom and doom about situations, even though I am an eternal optimist; there are days it just seems like we won't get anywhere with society.......

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Vanessa White

I just crave and desire that those around me, do more than just tolerate me. Which is what I try to do for others, not just tolerate, but embrace and gain understanding of other people and their experiences.

when persons like Zerbie or others that are allies come along, it is like a gift from heaven.



Friends are gifts from heaven. I see you as the one who is a gift.

It isn't just tolerance, but true understanding. In some ways, I understand why Larry Kramer feels so gloom and doom about situations, even though I am an eternal optimist; there are days it just seems like we won't get anywhere with society.......

I am connecting to your words - I don't know if it's related to what you mean but I have a continual frustration. This is not specific to the LGBT thing, but is a general observation. I want, I actually expect, to be seen for who I really am - the eternal part, the part that keeps getting back up and loving again, and trying again. I want people to see that when they see me walk into the room. But I think this is actually a ridiculous expectation for several reasons. We are habituated not to look at that part of people but to look at exteriors, if we look at all. Most of the time we're so wrapped up in our own problems we don't even look. It's ridiculous that I want other people to see me that way even when most of the time I don't remember to look at them in the same regard.

I do think that part of being in life in the world means we will go unseen by many, whoever we are. Consider that Jesus went unseen by many of his time. Whoa, some of them really hated him! If even Jesus cannot be recognized and loved by the many, why on earth would I think that I can be?

So, I'll take 'tolerance' from those on the outskirts of my life, and yeah, I kind of do chuckle at them for what they're missing (I mean, I'm fantastic, right? ) It is only from my intimates that I can rightly ask to be really embraced, and have any expectation of it happening.

Vanessa, next time you're feeling unloved and a lack of embrace, reflect on the company you are keeping. Consider those who were treated that way before you: Jesus, Martin Luther King, and the list goes on and on with heros. You are most certainly not alone, and those who *really* know what they're looking at will recognize a like mind. The rest, we can't worry about.

[tdogg]

That's a good response Zerbie. When I think of tolerance, my first feeling is that my emotional self would prefer to be hated openly and outright for who I am, rather than merely tolerated. It hurts to think my being is relegated to a mere 'toleration' by others.

But when I apply your thoughts to my personal situation with various family & friends, I can see where if they at least tolerated me and my partner, it would be a start. Tolerance leads to thinking about it, and getting to know the person somewhat. That might lead to the opening of minds, and a beginning of something more than tolerance. If one is outright hated, there is very little room for opening of minds. The emotional self has to stand behind the intellectual self on this for it to work well I think.

[Vanessa White]

Both tdogg and zerbie are helpful for me in this way. Maybe tolerance needs to be viewed differently, and be viewed as a first step rather than an outright rejection. I mean, I do believe that as humans, we only do the best that we can do at any given time. Tolerance today can mean fuller understanding tomorrow. Therefore, we are holding onto the hope that the situation/circumstance will improve in the future.....

Thanks women!!!!

[tdogg]

It's hard to do though. You have to really not get emotional and not take the 'tolerance' personal. That's difficult, for me at least. I'm very sensitive and can get emotional. Oh, and angry too if it goes on too long. But, often I wish some of my family would be at least tolerant, cause now I barely exist for them.

And I like to think that by accepting tolerance, we are being the better person for it, maybe?