hell

[NathanATX]

Maybe the crucifixion was more about man's cruelty and opposition to people who challenge "the status quo" than it was about God having to rescue mankind from something He created...?

[themattperry]

I agree with Bishop John Spong, who called this kind of Jesus the "life-preserver" Jesus.

It is unfortunate that our view of destiny, the cruxifiction etc is limited in that way -- we tend as a race to be so focused on preserving our own skins ... even unto eternity I guess. Instinctual.

Matt

[themattperry]

So if there is a Hell, who goes there?

Do people who have never even heard of Christ go there? Do babies? Can lack of knowledge alone get you the big ticket downstairs? After all, evangelicals tend to believe that we are born (as in birthed) with the stain of sin that only Jesus through our (often adult) baptism can cleanse with his sacrificial blood. So what's the deal?

To use Carleton Pearson's pivotal example. what about the Tibetan Shepherd who has lived a long and virtuous life but never hear the word "Jesus" much less seen a Christian before. Does he end up in the cosmic furnace?

What kind of God would permit that?

[awediot]

?#1: ...who ever sees God as a dick and would rather go to Hell.
?#2,3,4,5,6: ...of course innocent ignorance is no reason for God to damn. He is not a dick. All will be given the chance to make an informed choice.
?#7: ...only the god in your head.



I can honestly only partially apologize for the "enough already" vibe of my reply. It is astounding to me the lengths some will go to redefine and update the most basic of Christian concepts. Its source, history, charity, logic, influence and future are meticulously analyzed out of obvious meaning and selectively expounded into the ground without the slightest adjustment or effort to comprehend the childish nature of your exaggerated dilemma... After All, try cutting the familiar, old God a little slack before wasting so much energy concocting His replacement... With all due respect, I hope you are above that last, simplistic post.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by awediot

?#1: ...who ever sees God as a dick and would rather go to Hell.
?#2,3,4,5,6: ...of course innocent ignorance is no reason for God to damn. He is not a dick. All will be given the chance to make an informed choice.
?#7: ...only the god in your head.



I can honestly only partially apologize for the "enough already" vibe of my reply. It is astounding to me the lengths some will go to redefine and update the most basic of Christian concepts. Its source, history, charity, logic, influence and future are meticulously analyzed out of obvious meaning and selectively expounded into the ground without the slightest adjustment or effort to comprehend the childish nature of your exaggerated dilemma... After All, try cutting the familiar, old God a little slack before wasting so much energy concocting His replacement... With all due respect, I hope you are above that last, simplistic post.

Uh... You sound so hostile, I'm a little disturbed by your post.

Even the answers you gave reflect elements of what Matt said. Could a sentient & sane human being choose the torment of hell? Most likely not.

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by awediot

?#1: ...who ever sees God as a dick and would rather go to Hell.
?#2,3,4,5,6: ...of course innocent ignorance is no reason for God to damn. He is not a dick. All will be given the chance to make an informed choice.
?#7: ...only the god in your head.



I can honestly only partially apologize for the "enough already" vibe of my reply. It is astounding to me the lengths some will go to redefine and update the most basic of Christian concepts. Its source, history, charity, logic, influence and future are meticulously analyzed out of obvious meaning and selectively expounded into the ground without the slightest adjustment or effort to comprehend the childish nature of your exaggerated dilemma... After All, try cutting the familiar, old God a little slack before wasting so much energy concocting His replacement... With all due respect, I hope you are above that last, simplistic post.

Hmm ...

I guess I don't really know what to say, other than I guess I touched a nerve. I certainly meant no offense.

I guess the only thing I can say is that the answers to my questions that you give are are not always shared by other Christians ... for example, many fundamentalists. For these, ignorance is indeed grounds for damnation (or at least some kind of "modified ignorance" ... I won't bother to try explain what this means because the various expainations of its nature never made any sense to me in the first place.)

I quite agree with you awediot, my questions are easily answered for me ... but that's because I don't conceive of Hell in the traditional way!

But for those who do admit some notion of eternal, extreme damnation and torture after death, the question of who gets to partake must arise. It seems like you are confident in the answers you provide ... However, many of Christians might disagree with you.

This huge variance of opinion is interesting to me.

Anyone else have ideas about this?

Matt

[awediot]

Yeah Matt, ya did hit a nerve, and it's one that has been rubbed raw recently. I am sorry you happened to be one of the final, accidental straws. I appreciate the understanding response. From what I have observed about you here, you do have my respect and admiration. You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, with just the perfectly wrong innocuous thought to offer...

I must admit to a growing chip on my shoulder that this site does not cause, but collectively adds to. It is a fascinating and frustrating microcosm that allows me to focus where I cannot in the "real" world. I also have put higher expectations on all of your heads than I do the majority of shallower souls that make up my day to day. Fair or not, it is a yoke I think most here are comfortable with... I simply was incensed to encounter such a mistaken, indeed rare set of reasons to dismiss (my) truth. Especially on this intelligent forum, and doubly so because I know no Christians who would argue that an infant is damned for any reason. They are an urban legend in my experience and it seemed they were being magnified for the purpose of discrediting more than it had a right to. (looked like the freakiest on a media blurb of a pride parade).

The exploding Aquarian improvement of so called obsolete absolutes is liberating this country from the very idea of basic right and wrong. And it is done in the gentlest, most condescending ways, seemingly designed to get under my skin, and at that nerve. I wish this were the hell they were describing...

...and Nate, your decidedly sincere desire to understand the crucifixion in a new light played quite a part in my tirade, for reasons I hope are apparent. It is a catalyst of a subject to just make up new meanings for, and I've no doubt I am not the only one who shuddered a little reading it...Matt just blocked for ya.

...the fading away of my balancing 'Heaven' thread, is a tad depressing, and hopefully meaningless. It is a strange constant that we prefer the topic of Hell...

[themattperry]

Originally Posted by awediot

I simply was incensed to encounter such a mistaken, indeed rare set of reasons to dismiss (my) truth. Especially on this intelligent forum, and doubly so because I know no Christians who would argue that an infant is damned for any reason.

Thanks for the reply awediot ... you seemed to have cooled down which is good. I can also really tell that you very attached to the idea that there is a traditional hell. I think many people are attached to the idea because it contributes to their sense of order in the universe and of who God is, and the lack of a hell does exactly the oposite.

I guess it's completely the reverse of that for me ... in fact, your truth -- for me -- turns God into a torturer and makes no sense to me as a person of this era. Therefore, I don't believe in Hell, either as a place or a state of eternal, absolute being. Just my best guess as of now knowing what I know. Absense from God's Spirit? Human misery? I understand these things. But a punative Hell? I can neither intuit nor understand the concept.

Nathan,

I agree with your point alot -- no one would choose hell if given the choice. Another way people have stated it, however, is that people make choices that result in going to hell.

Still doesn't help me thogh if I just don't understand what Hell even is.

[awediot]

Hey, chilling comes and goes. I'm glad to see you're not the type to get scarred by some cyber stranger's over-reaction. I do feel the type of person who is drawn to express themselves here, share a mutual respect in lieu of agreement. The shear willingness to ask the hard questions, is in itself a potent bond encircling this group... For the record, and future reference, I find the relentless, hyper-nonviolence that saturates this forum, to be a powerful and beautiful methodology for changing one's rival, but here, it is overkill and compels a stifling, heightened fragility that degrades normal, common courtesy. It should not be used to second guess your own passions or delay even hastily pounded out replies to each other. Thoughts and ideas and progress are lost that way...

Originally Posted by themattperry

I can also really tell that you very attached to the idea that there is a traditional hell.

Well, if my believing that the raw honesty, loss of ego, return of power and perfecting of desires, which I imagine make-up much of the nature of Heaven, may in fact be Hell for certain people, and God makes good on His gift of freewill, allowing some of us to defy Him to the end, and go where they want, then I guess you pegged me... But I doubt you got that is the way I see it... I am more than willing to abandon every notion in my head if something better comes along. That is why I am on this site, and on this planet.

I agree with you as well, and cannot conceive of a punitive reason for Hell. It makes God a petty sadist... The idea that God's love allows His own creation to defeat and ultimately reject Him, and understanding how one could feel the pain of that as an embattled triumph of the self, Hell not only makes perfect sense, but turns out we are the ones demanding He leave it to us.

there is no pearly gate, as there is no wall to support it.

[Alktyre]

A lot of the ideas floating around remind me of that Zen proverb about heaven and hell...

"What are the differences between Heaven and Hell?', a young Zen monk asked an aged Buddhist priest who was reknowned for his wisdom.

'There are no material differences,' replied the old monk.

'None at all?' asked the puzzled young monk.

'That's right. Both Heaven and Hell have a spacious hall with a big pot in the center in which noodles are boiled, giving off a delicious scent,' said the old priest. 'The size of the huge pan, the number of people sitting around the pot and the bowl of sauce placed in front of each diner are the same in both places.'

'The odd thing is that each diner is given a pair of meter-long chopsticks and must use them to eat the noodles.'

'To eat the noodles, you must hold the chopsticks properly at their ends,' the old monk told the young Zen monk.

'In the case of Hell's kitchen, people are always hungry because no matter how hard they try, they can't get the noodles into their mouths,' said the old priest.

'But isn't it the same case for the people in Heaven?' the junior monk inquited.

'No. They can eat because they each feed the person sitting opposite them at the table. That's the difference between Heaven and Hell,' explained the old monk."