New Poll

[Joe Brummer]

There has been much talk on here about learning about Nonviolence. Jaime and I have chatted a little about it, but with some of the posts I have put out about nonviolence I don't see that mych conversation about them.

I can put together an online training to post here on the board that could cover much about nonviolence and what it means.

Is there any interest in people learning about nonviolence, its history, and how to use it in our daily lives?

[Daniel]

Yes- I would like to have more threads about the methods of non-violence. Speaking frankly, I wasn't sure how to respond to the recent post (principles of non-violence) which struck this reader as rummative and self-contained. The canny use of a question can do wonders here? Whatever the means, the reader needs the ball thrown to them in order to throw it back.

[Joe Brummer]

Thank you for your response, sometime I guess I can live in my own head and just think other know what i am chatting about. That piece comes in context I guess, only if you have been following my web blog. Where I come under attack pretty often for not only preaching nonviolence but gay rights.

Jaime and I have been chatting about the options of how we could teach nonviolence here. I offered that I could revamp a powerpoint I already have into an online tutorial, but it oftens seems discussions on nonviolence and what is violence are not popualr topics on this board. Most of those discussions have died and the thread are here but not being discusses. We can't force people to learn nonviolence or practice it, but if Soulforce's mission is nonviolence for gay rights, then I feel it is worth exploring if people want to discuss it, want to learn it. I guess I I type this I am also thinking that it was not really that right of me to post this poll without consulting Jaime. I apoligize if I have overstepped my bounds.

I have a passion for nonviolence that far exceeds gay rights. I feel it could be the answer to many of the problems we see out in the world right now. We need to get people top start rejecting violence. Send a message to movie makers, and video game makers that the money they make from violence isn't worth the damage that violence does to us.

We have had may threads on violence and nonviolence but they don't see as popular as the pther topics. Before I undertake the task of coming up with an online training, I wanted to ask questions, gather information about how you all feel about nonviolence and how important it is in your daily lives. Is this what we want or do we just want our right regardless of the means.

I am a supporter and a critic of Soulforce. Keep that in mind.


Joe

[Zerbie]

Maybe.

I would certainly look at a tutorial if one were posted. Not sure how much of the training I would engage with at this time, but am not in any way opposed to it either.

[awediot]

I'm sure I could use a dose of peace today, and would be interested to see how such a lesson would form... Unfortunately I have yet to see a consensus on the definition of violence, and unless that is resolved, and the fluctuating "spirit" of nonviolence we all are familiar with is nailed down, the instructions would be built on the abstract and go nowhere.

[Joe Brummer]

Actually, If I do put something together it is based on Kingian nonviolence since that is what I am trained to train others in. It does really help nail down what violence and nonviolence is.

[Jennifer5]

I said yes. My only problem is I love following the discussions and having input but I can't ever keep up... I'm a little slow with things, and I like to have to time to really think about what is being said... but yes.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

Is there any interest in people learning about nonviolence... and how to use it in our daily lives?

Daily lives, practical application. That’s where my interest lies. Like that one part on your site (I do check in ) that said to think of 10 things you like or can respect about your opponent. I don’t know that I read the whole thing so forgive me if this was covered, but for me that’s not the problem. I need to know how loving them is going to make my actions, or better, reactions toward their violence, albeit mostly spiritual, more effective.

Originally Posted by Daniel

I wasn't sure how to respond to the recent post (principles of non-violence)...Whatever the means, the reader needs the ball thrown to them in order to throw it back.

Ibid

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

...if Soulforce’s mission is nonviolence for gay rights, then I feel it is worth exploring if people want to discuss it, want to learn it...

I use you and the way you write as an example all the time. As sardonic, sarcastic, acerbic, and sometimes downright bitter and mean I can be, I can’t be reminded enough that the goal is how to be the most effective without stooping to their level. I often think of you in my writings and of your writings in my thoughts. So far, at least you’re a practical example that I have to temper my... well, temper. It might be as simple as phrasing a condemnation as a question to make my point less confrontational, but please know that your example is there and affects me.

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

...I guess as I type this I am also thinking that it was not really that right of me to post this poll without consulting Jaime...

All I see from this post and poll is the effort to be more effective, and to that I say Bravo!

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

I have a passion for nonviolence that far exceeds gay rights. I feel it could be the answer to many of the problems we see out in the world right now. We need to get people top start rejecting violence. Send a message to movie makers, and video game makers that the money they make from violence isn't worth the damage that violence does to us.

I keep getting the specific impression that the gay rights thing and this war on gays is the key to the whole thing, America vs. Theocracy USA and beyond even. I could go on at length here but want to be succinct without being trite.

Resolving the gay rights issue seems to be at the heart of resolving the issue of violence because it’s bringing to the surface the very nature of the meaning of controversy. Particularly because this issue is based on thinking for yourself or not. Do I look to a book or a preacher to decide what is right or do I find out myself what is true? If this issue can be illuminated in that regard, all other issues based solely on religious belief (assumption of truth), can then also be addressed and resolved based on their merits.

My point is I agree with the principle of your view that non-violence is even more important than the gay rights issue, I’m just seeing the gay rights issue as the catalyst that will bring about that realization, specifically because the issue of gay PEOPLE vs gay BEHAVIOR is the ultimate conundrum for those who are DETERMINED to not take personal responsibility for their beliefs and resultant actions. This is a PERMANENT conundrum for them whether they and/or we realize it or not.

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

Before I undertake the task of coming up with an online training, I wanted to ask questions, gather information about how you all feel about nonviolence and how important it is in your daily lives. Is this what we want or do we just want our right regardless of the means.

Originally Posted by awediot

...and would be interested to see how such a lesson would form... Unfortunately I have yet to see a consensus on the definition of violence, and unless that is resolved, and the fluctuating "spirit" of nonviolence we all are familiar with is nailed down, the instructions would be built on the abstract and go nowhere.

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

Actually, If I do put something together it is based on Kingian nonviolence since that is what I am trained to train others in. It does really help nail down what violence and nonviolence is.

Now, this is where I’m at. I had awediot’s point in mind before he posted it.

I think Mia had a signature a while back that said “The opposite of War is not peace it’s creation.” I view non-violence, at least in the way it’s definition is being presented and expressed, as peace. Peace is groovy tunes but this is a war. The insidious part of this war is that those waging it “come in peace.” Focus on the Family, Concerned Women for America knowingly use Paul Cameron’s (Family Research Institute) intentional lies.

Non-violence comes across as passive and potentially acquiescent. In dewdrop world’s post on the “Cowards in DC,” I made the suggestion that we should hold signs next to the anti-gay protesters’ signs that say things like, stone your insolent children, because that’s in the bible too.

Now I was being half sarcastic, I wouldn’t suggest doing that in front of a church or shouting that message at people. But upon further reflection, I think under the right circumstances, that’s a potentially viable Idea.

(This is just an example of where I’m coming from>) If we held signs next to protesters using the Bible and God to condemn gays, except have Bible verses that virtually no one would agree with, it would devalue their protest significantly. The only deception would be in appearing as though we were protesting gays. If anyone asked we would truthfully state exactly who we were with and why (Heck, maybe even put that boldly on the sign and avoid all deception). Queer Nation style without the anger and PETA style spray painting fur coats tactics.

Perhaps that example is not Soulforce savvy, but point being it would be non-violent, the truth, an most of all CREATIVE. This is war, we are the minority and thus the message to our level of frustration needs to be one that resounds with effectiveness. We’re already beaten down, to speak of sitting in a diner is just not appealing.

In a universe based on entropy (the path of least resistence), Creativity IS violence. It requires the effort to ensure against destruction (entropy), and then go in the opposite direction to construction.

Our conundrum lies in resisting the violence of entropy (steriotypical destructive violence) while capitalizing on the violence of creativity (non-violence). Somewhere inbetween lies our definition of non-violence. (that's as best as I can put right now )

The creative aspect of non-violence is what needs to be extracted, illuminated, understood and applied. The violent aspect of non-violence if you will.

[Lydia]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

I said yes. My only problem is I love following the discussions and having input but I can't ever keep up... I'm a little slow with things, and I like to have to time to really think about what is being said... but yes.

I'm the same way, Jennifer.

[Lydia]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

I have a passion for nonviolence that far exceeds gay rights. I feel it could be the answer to many of the problems we see out in the world right now. We need to get people top start rejecting violence. Send a message to movie makers, and video game makers that the money they make from violence isn't worth the damage that violence does to us.

We have had may threads on violence and nonviolence but they don't see as popular as the pther topics. Before I undertake the task of coming up with an online training, I wanted to ask questions, gather information about how you all feel about nonviolence and how important it is in your daily lives. Is this what we want or do we just want our right regardless of the means.
Joe

I'm right there with you, Joe.

I haven't said much in the nonviolence threads because I didn't think I knew enough about the topic. I grew up in a family - nuclear and extended - that was and is dedicated to nonviolence and pacifism. But we didn't use the technical terms for it, and we didn't discuss it very often. It was more of a cultural or religious thing than an activism sort of thing, if that makes any sense.

[revtj]

I think we should teach it, discuss it and practice it in postings. I would also enjoy hearing actual experiences from other practitioners & groups of their experience of taking it to the streets.

My own personal goal is to study and learn nonviolence over and over so that it might become a habit with me.

[Vanessa White]

I, too, am very interested in the topic, in studying it on line when I can, and being consistent enough with it that it becomes part of my daily regimen without having to consciously remember what to do next. Also, I am like Jennifer in that I cannot always get here daily, and I do need time in between to think on things and then to apply/expand the concept into my daily life. Joe, thanks for the forethought for the rest of us. I have learned so much already in being around you all here, and I feel quite fortunate when I can gain any further info that helps us all. Peace out, Vanessa

[morningrob]

When I first signed up I remember there being a "book club" of some sort. I think a book by Walter Wink was being used- maybe that can be raised from the dead?

[Joe Brummer]

I have just sent Jaime the "first" power point lesson for his review.

[volezmoncoeur]

I'm a huge advocate of anything involving non-violence. So yes, yes. I think it is something that we need to be constantly practicing in our everyday lives... teaching peace is a beautiful thing.

[Joe Brummer]

I am happy with this repsonse. I did want to take this quick chance to address something I see often and volezmoncoeur reminded me of it.

non-violence and nonviolence are not the same thing. I know it sounds silly but the meaning of the words change when you add that little slash.

non-violence means that something lacks violence.

nonviolence is a philosophy and a movement towards conflict resolution.

The founder of the Institute for the Study and practice of Nonviolence pointed that out to me one day and it made a great deal of sense.