How sad does it get?

[keltic63]

here's an exchange I've been having with a guy out in the blogosphere. The level of internalized homophobia is amazing. How tormented this guy must be. I'll start with his original blog entry:

Originally Posted by chriswithquestions

Billy’s got a boyfriend

Okay, so his name isn’t Billy and it isn’t really a boyfriend, but still, I’m kinda bumming out over the fact that a close friend of mine, one who is a commited Christian and struggling with being gay (though he no longer says he’s struggling, he’s just come to see that’s how he is) is now “seeing” someone. And, yes. I am jealous. For two main reasons: 1) Because he was the one guy I knew who dealt with this in a way that honored God and I was liking the fact that this issue was our common ground and 2) If I didn’t feel that dating a man would dishonor God, this is the guy I would really be into. So now I found out he’s dating some guy he met online. SUCKS!!! A part of me wants to short change myself. My friend is a Christian, the guy he’s now seeing is a Christian, so how can all these people (okay, 2) who live for Jesus Christ (I mean more than just saying they do), be okay dating in gay a relationship, yet I feel it’s something I cannot do. It kinda sucks because I almost wish God would just tell me what he told them to make them feel it’s okay. So now, it’s like I’m kinda alone again. I no longer have that close friend who was in the same boat as me. I’m now alone… which I think God might’ve done on purpose because I’ve been praying to Him a lot about this these past few days. So I guess it has given us some good talks. For now, I guess that prayer will have to be enough for me.

I found this entry while I was tag surfing, and so I responded:

Originally Posted by keltic

I’m gay, a christian, and about to marry my partner. I’ve got no problem with this stuff, though I can tell you that I went through the struggle to understand why God created me as a gay man, then called me to his service. From what I’ve read, skimming your blog, you seem to think that acting on your affectional orientation toward other men would be sinful. That’s just not so. Jesus has nothing to say about homosexuality; there are only 6 verses in the Bible that deal with same sex behavior; those 6 verses have nothing to say about committed, loving relationships, and sexual orientation as we know it today. come visit my blog, I’ve written some things about this issue. Also check out http://www.godmademegay.com and read the “Letter to Louise” it’s very good and covers all the scriptures and more!

So right now we're looking at a guy who is jealous of another guy, both of whom are fighting so hard against who they are because of what religion has taught them.

more to come in the next post.....

[keltic63]

his response:

Originally Posted by chriswithquestions

Thanks for the comment and I’d love to check out your site. As I go through the this struggle, I feel I am constantly praying that if my seeking something else for my life is out of shame that others inappropriately put on me, that it is revealed to me.
I realize, contrary to what my mother used to harp, that this isn’t a choice. I know I didn’t decide to be gay or feel bored with women and turn to men. That said, in studying the Bible, I feel God wants what’s best for his children as he created us. He wants us to be as healthy as we can, but in our human nature we tend to do a lot of damage to the bodies we’ve been given; sometimes through overeating or substance abuse. Sometimes through multiple sex partners. The one constant is God loves every one of these people.
But I’m not sure that intimate relationships with men are what’s best for me. I’m certain God doesn’t want people on breathing machines. We weren’t created to be on them, but in an imperfect earth, it can seem to be the only way to continue life here. In the same way, I don’t at this time feel as though God created me to be with a man. It’s a result of the world we live in. (WOW, I’m being way too wordy for this time of night)
When I’m more awake I’ll check out “Letter to Louise” again. I already saw it brought up a ton of points I truly believe. As for where I go, I pray God will give me a solid word or revelation of truth, because I love him to much to step out on my own logic. It’s like, I know I want to do this, and I can’t risk letting my desire influence my faith. For all I know this could just be the Lord seeking to discipline me, but for now I haven’t heard it from the Spirit, so I’m having to just say no to man dating. Let me know if that makes sense, Keltic.

and my response:

Originally Posted by keltic

let’s simplify: You already know that it’s not a choice. Would God create an entire class of people with an affection for, and attraction to the same gender, then place the restriction on them to NEVER act on that attraction? What kind of God would create people with that orientation, then condemn them for acting on it? That would be cruel, and certainly not a God that I could serve. If God loves us, and wants our best, then the experience of a fully human expression, including intimacy, is part of that plan.

[keltic63]

so here's the lengthy reply from chris:

Originally Posted by chriswithquestions

You are right, I know this isn’t a choice as far as saying I choose to be gay and it seems a lot of Christians believe that. I am no expert and I’m learning more as each day passes, but I do think it’s a choice to say, “I’m going to follow this feeling and accept that my circumstances are what I have to live by, despite God’s intention for man’s partner to be a woman.” Sorry to go all Biblical (cause it’s all been lectured to me as I’m sure it has to you), but Gen. 2:18 says God was creating “a helper suitable for him.” Vs. 24 says man will be “joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” The one flesh thing is sex, I believe.
So when you say this is how we were created, these verses show the actual intention in our creation. But here’s the “SUCKS FOR ME” kicker. Because of the fallen world we live in, many are born or are formed into situations that sadden God. I hate to use the cliche example that every shaking head evangelist has written in their one sided blogs, but the same way a kid is born with a hereditary likeliness to be an alcoholic, so are some born in an environment that leads them to desire same gendered intimacy. I don’t believe God blames either situation’s members for the circumstances, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t desire for them both to rise above and overcome the sinful nature each was “inherited,” so to speak.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m certain God doesn’t condemn a man for feeling this or struggling with it. I’ve come to recognize that when I chose to follow my boner springing for men instead of what God’s written in his world, I’m saying I trust my understanding over God’s original plan for me. At this time, that original intent for man and woman seems to make more sense, despite my feelings.

and my impatient response:

Originally Posted by keltic

I’m sorry you can’t find God’s love for yourself. I’m sorry that you believe you are screwed up so badly that you think because you’re gay you must be on the same level as an alchoholic or a mentally challenged person. That’s just not true.
It’s also sad that you would disregard all the major medical and psychological organizations that have declared homosexuality as an orientation is normal and naturally occurring, not a disease, not a mental illness, not a choice.
God doesn’t condemn me for having same sex attractions, nor does he condemn me for loving my partner.
oh, and you think there weren’t gay people mentioned and honored in the Bible? Jonathan & David, Ruth & Naomi, the Centurion and his Servant, and the Eunuch.
I’ve had more blessings, more words of affirmation from my Creator, and more spiritual revelations since I was honest with myself and God about who I am. I am a Gay Child of the Living God. I know that God honors that.

[keltic63]

how do we help people like this?

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by keltic63

how do we help people like this?

Bit by bit, perhaps. He spoke of the passage in Genesis in which "chose" a helper for Adam.

Two things:
There are two versions of the creation narrative - ask him to reconcile them.

Second thing,

Genesis 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner."
19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper as his partner.
21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called Woman, for out of Man this one was taken."

God paraded a series of living things before Adam, but Adam wasn't interested. God then put Adam to sleep and took out a rib (if you read this literally, which I don't). God brought the woman to the man. Then, the man chose the woman, not God. How does the decision or choice of a human establish God's will for all time.

Anyway, then he'll role through all the other parts he's been beaten with. You may get through to him - you may not - biut, at least, you may give him ammunition for the day he is ready to confront his own internalized bias. Some sow, others reap - just patiently love him, anyway.

[keltic63]

Andrew! I love you.

I already responded to another of his comments tonight, which was more positive. perhaps another reply is called for, and I'll use what you've pointed out. thanks so much.

[Pablo Rafael]

This guy is at the exact same place I was not all that long ago. If he is like me, he needs to hear that there are there are Biblically sound interpretations of the Bible that affirm same-sex relationships and really nothing that condems them. I needed to hear it many times from many different sources. God sort of had to club me over the head. (That is my stubborn German ancestry coming through. The German half of the family tells a joke about hard-headed Germans. Q: Why do you bury Germans with their heads sticking out of the ground? A: Their heads last longer than tombstones do.

Now what was I talking about?

What started me on the journey was reading Stranger at the Gate. The second most valuable resource was The Children Are Free.(I know you recommend this book as well, Steve.) As long as he is still talking and still listening, there is the possibility that the chains might be broken.

Pablo

[keltic63]

another thought hit me as I read through your post and used it to reply to chriswithquestions: if God paraded all the animals in front of Adam, hoping that he would choose a partner from them, could we not infer that God intended man to participate in bestiality?

[Zerbie]

That dear man! I can see where he is, too. I was in that place when I was very, very young -- God has to come first, and the terrible question at that time was, is accepting homosexuality in defiance of God, or is it an expression of our alliance with God's will (love for self and others).


Thank you for showing him new ways to analyze things, Steve. Keep being gentle.

You might invite him here, perhaps just invite him to read, and possibly to introduce himself, if he wants. Or at least, to 'lurk' and read our thoughts.

[Daniel]

That's the word that comes to mind. The man is stuck. Stuck inside his own thoughts, or the thoughts of others, which, of course, he cannot align with his feelings. And the tempation for one in his place (Stuckville) is too- at all costs- not deal with his feelings.

But they will have their way, won't they?

I guess I was lucky in that- in my stupidity- or whatever one calls it- I realized, when I was in his situation, that my feelings were important- even though no one articulated this to me.

A gift? A grace? I don't know.

I only hope that this young man can see through the thicket of thoughts to what is. And as I see it, that is the attraction of Love itself.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

But they will have their way, won't they?

I guess I was lucky in that- in my stupidity- or whatever one calls it- I realized, when I was in his situation, that my feelings were important- even though no one articulated this to me.

A gift? A grace? I don't know.

.

Yes. I am beginning to contemplate the importance of feelings. They must be acknowledged. They demand our respect. Sometimes (often?) they demand to be heeded, or they will burst through and play games with us.

I suspect that many people have difficulty placing their feelings in the kind of perspective that would help them. We are taught in our culture to erase our own feelings and be good little people, pleasing others and the status quo. Reckless abandon to all our feelings might lead to chaos. So where's balance?

Sorry Kelt', that was a mega-tangent. Perhaps it should be its own thread.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Yes. I am beginning to contemplate the importance of feelings. They must be acknowledged. They demand our respect. Sometimes (often?) they demand to be heeded, or they will burst through and play games with us.

I suspect that many people have difficulty placing their feelings in the kind of perspective that would help them. We are taught in our culture to erase our own feelings and be good little people, pleasing others and the status quo. Reckless abandon to all our feelings might lead to chaos. So where's balance?

Sorry Kelt', that was a mega-tangent. Perhaps it should be its own thread.

From what we're heard (read them would be more like it), the guy has admitted his feelings- several of them actually.

He's got his same-sex feelings going. And then there are the one's were he's jealous of a guy he - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to firgure out- he has feelings for.

Is theology and bibilcal understanding the way out of the thicket for him? Perhaps. Though it should be noted that this is a long and hard road, not unlike the yellow brick road that leads to OZ. In the end, he will have to click his heels and know that he is 'home'. But he's going to have to endure some stuff before that happens.

Look out for Wicked Witches.

Here's the standout one I read on the blog link.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m certain God doesn’t condemn a man for feeling this or struggling with it. I’ve come to recognize that when I chose to follow my boner springing for men instead of what God’s written in his world, I’m saying I trust my understanding over God’s original plan for me. At this time, that original intent for man and woman seems to make more sense, despite my feelings.

Yep. It's those pesky verses.

And for trusting his 'understanding'? That's called 'logic-ing' his feelings out. Mind over matter- in this case- one of the heart.

And this original intent stuff? That sounds like one big rock in the road.

I hope he finds his ruby slippers soon.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by u-dog

The other point you might make is that what starts the whole "find adam a friend" thing is God's observation that "It is not Good for the man to be alone" How does he reconcile his decision to remain alone with that? In both of the creation stories there is one thing that God fails to declare "good" ... namely MONDAYS. I agree. There is only ONE thing that God declares to be "NOT GOOD" -- being alone. I agree with that too (I'm sure that God is relieved to hear that I agree with him)

I have a gay cousin who often says this to me, that one of the first things God says in Genesis is that it is not good for man to be alone. unfortunately, my cousin is alone, waiting for the one to come along.

[keltic63]

Paul came over and made an excellent reply. so chris directed us to his latest blog entry:

Originally Posted by chris

I appreciate the responses from you guys, and you bring up many points. Some good, some irrelevant (Beastiality? Really?), and some I flat out don’t agree with. But the fact that your showing concern is understood. However, trying to puncture my beliefs with a check list of counterpoints is kinda… uhhh… useless. It’s not that I don’t respect and want to understand what you’re saying. But I live my life according to my relationship with Christ, thus any big decision (like, I don’t know, seeking a partner to share life with) will be one that is prayed upon and directed by the Holy Spirit. No, I don’t hear his voice audibly, we don’t chill, but as many Christians can attest, the Spirit moves and lays things on your heart. So that’s what it would take to alter my thinking on a lot of this stuff I’m struggling with. Til then, I just try to follow Christ based on what the Spirit has revealed to me through reading the Bible, praying, and hanging out with people who I see God use in the world around me. Please, if there is something you think of that will assist me, feel free to share but (AND HERE IS WHERE I’D LOVE YOUR HELP) one of the best ways anyone can help me right now is to pray that God’s heart for me would be revealed to me by the Holy Spirit.

there's a little more to it, but that is the relevant part.

So I responded:

Originally Posted by keltic

Once there was a huge flood and a guy realized his house was going to be washed away. As he watched from the porch the waters rising, a man came by in a big truck and said, “Get in, the water is coming.” The man calmly said, “No need, I have faith in the Lord. He will save me.”
He climbed to the roof to avoid the water rushing up to the porch at this point. A couple of guys in a canoe rowed by and said, “Get in…we’ll take you to safety.” The man replied simply, “No need, I have faith in the Lord. He will save me.”
As the water rose to the top of the house, a helicopter came, dropped a ladder, and a loud voice exclaimed, “Climb up or you are going to drown!” The man waved them off and screamed, “the Lord will save me” and then the water swept over him and he drowned.
The man was walking around heaven and demanded to see God. He wanted an explanation for why he was there!
God came out and the man said, “Lord, I had unwaivering faith in you. Why did you let me die in that flood?” The Lord rolled his eyes and said, “I sent a truck, a canoe, and a helicopter to pull you out. What did you expect, Noah’s Ark to cruise by?”

[Daniel]

However, trying to puncture my beliefs with a check list of counterpoints is kinda… uhhh… useless. It’s not that I don’t respect and want to understand what you’re saying. But I live my life according to my relationship with Christ, thus any big decision (like, I don’t know, seeking a partner to share life with) will be one that is prayed upon and directed by the Holy Spirit.

He's saying....

Please don't ask me to think, please don't ask me to examine what I believe. Please pray that the answer to everything will fall out of the sky without me having to do a damn thing.

And God Bless Him....he's got to think about whether he deserves to be happy with another human being....in this case...another man? Oh Jeez.

God created us with brains to use!

Doesn't he get it that that the God Lord has already answered his prayers in the body, words and hearts of the people he's been talking to- who have been where he is at?

I guess- not yet.

The water- as you have pointed out Steve- hasn't risen high enough yet. Life-savers at the ready! And you are throwing him one after another. I pray he has the good sense to catch one.

It's horrible to contemplate, but perhaps he mind isn't open enough is because he hasn't suffered enough yet. Or maybe he actually gets off on the suffering. I don't know....only he knows.

sigh...

I'm mixing metaphors here: but it sounds as though the fruit isn't ripe yet- the ground not soft enough to plant a seed.

I pray he has time enough to answer the call of his Heart.

[andrewlittle]

Okay, I couldn't NOT post on Chris' blog. This what I wrote.

Chris,

I'm Andy. For the sake of openness, I am Rev Andy Little - a straight, married minister who has battled my way from being vehemently anti-gay (all in the name of Christ) to being a vociferous LGBT ally (all in the name of Christ). I am also a participant and frequent poster on Soulforce.org.

My passage has been one heck of a rocky road, but not near as rocky as yours. My dilemma was coming to terms with what I assumed was God's word about other people, yours is coming to terms with other have told you is God's word about your very identity.

You said that the Holy Spirit "moves and lays things on your heart." How does the Spirit do that, Chris? My experience has been that the Holy Spirit speaks many, many times through people - people who, I would have thought, had little or no reason to address an issue or situation with me - people who step out in an unexplainable way to show me God's love. The Spirit has also been present as I have read Scripture and have seen new things and had new revelations about the possible meanings (I say possible, since no-one but God can have the absolute knowledge of God's word).

When I read "However, trying to puncture my beliefs with a check list of counterpoints is kinda… uhhh… useless" and "So that’s what it would take to alter my thinking on a lot of this stuff I’m struggling with", I am afraid I hear someone saying, "I am too locked into my rigid beliefs that I won't change my thoughts unless the Spirit forces me to." God gave us faith, which we could not have without also having reason and experience. God creates us as whole human beings and I think it dishonors God when we set aside the God given assets with which we have been endowed.

You want to dismiss Keltic and Paul? Okay! Is that because they are gay, so they couldn't possibly hear and speak the revelations of the Holy Spirit? If so, how will you hear them? So, dismiss me, Chris. Why, as a straight married minister, would I take the time to come here and post a response to someone musings about being gay and Christian? Why would I give a care?

It's because you are a brother in Christ, Chris. A person who's post revealed a depth of loneliness and pain that made me want to care. I really tried to stay away from this conversation - I just don't have the time - but, I couldn't. The urging was too strong.

I believe, Chris, that the Spirit has been talking to you, and you have been shutting it out. You are hearing from people who have no possible gain or self-interest in your walk with God - except that they love God and, because of that, they love you. Jesus wept for Mary and Martha over the pain they felt over Lazarus' death - he didn't weep because Lazarus was dead, since Jesus knew he was going to raise him - he wept because they hurt and he was deeply moved by their pain. Why would three people, with lives of their own, give a rat's behind about your life, Chris? Because we were moved to love you by the Spirit nudges us.

Re-read this sentence, "trying to puncture my beliefs with a check list of counterpoints is kinda… uhhh… useless." If someone said that to you, when you were trying to share scripture and faith with them, what would you think? First, the word "puncture" indicates you think that your beliefs are fragile - at least, to me. And, what? You think faith grows from just looking at irrelevant generalities? Faith deserves reflection - it isn't something that is fixed and concrete and needs to be protected. It is vibrant and alive and, with the help of whoever the Spirit chooses, requires our active participation.

I don't want to be judgmental, Chris, but I am afraid that I am seeing the words of someone is afraid that examining their faith will cause it to tumble into bits and pieces. What kind of faith is that? The Spirit moves - stop trying to put up walls to restrict those movements.

[Daniel]

Great post! Great message!

[paul]

that was...amazing. You are such a person, thank you for sharing your self.
paul

[drewcaine]

I don't like the fact that he put us on the same level as an alcoholic...but then again think of the kind of people he's probably been around.
Anyways, he'll just have to find the truth for himself. That's what I had to do, so there's no point now to pester him about it. You've done what you could, now it's his turn.
drewcaine

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by drewcaine

I don't like the fact that he put us on the same level as an alcoholic...but then again think of the kind of people he's probably been around.
Anyways, he'll just have to find the truth for himself. That's what I had to do, so there's no point now to pester him about it. You've done what you could, now it's his turn.
drewcaine

These are wise words.

We can only take steps like these at our own 'right' time. None of us could have dealt with it earlier than we did - or we would have. He will have to move at his own timing. We must be gentle and respectful of that timing. As Drew says, we did what we could. The rest is up to him.