ZeitGeist

[Gregory_de_Bois]

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

I don't like this film. At least not the first third of it. I don't like how virulently anti-Christian (and religion) it was. I need you to pray for me. I believe strongly in God. I'm not really that conservative, I am more of a post-liberal, but this movie was just unpleasant.

Have any of you seen this?

[tpdncr4christ]

It's definitely interesting. I'm watching it now. Good points. I'll post a reply when I've watched the whole thing.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Yeah, it was pretty interesting. The corrolations between Jesus and the other religions were actually fairly enlightening. However, the narrator seemed to want to use that to say that therefore Jesus is an invalid. That was where I didn't like it. Also, they mix up a lot of points. Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25. He was born (more likely) in the spring. And was Josephus really debunked as a fraud? 'Cause that was a first for me. And I have read too much Church History.

[Progo35]

Hey, Greg,

I have not seen the movie, but I'm sure you're telling the truth about it being virulently anti Christian/religion. Unfortunately, some in the media today seem to feel that demonizing (pardon the pun) Christians, Jesus and traditional Christianity is beneficial to society. It's frustating. The way the movie phrased the information about Josephus is inaccurate: from what I've read, there was disagreement amongst church historians as to the accuracy of his reporting, but he wasn't "debunked as a fraud." Like any other scholar, he had his work scrutinized and ended up with some who saw the information he presented as valid and some who did not.

Also, I might be reading too much into the film's title, particularly having not seen it yet, but Zeitgeist was the concept that Hitler emphasized in controlling the German populace. He tried to hijack religious imagery to brainwash people, to the extent that he actually sponsored pseudo-nativity pageants with Zeitgeist (an impersonal, spritual force embodied through the will of the German people), instead of Christ, as the main character. So, the use of that title in connection with Christianity suggests to me that the producers are actually trying to follow Hitler's example of making the historical Jesus look like a weak fool (which is something he borrowed from Nietzsche and other philosophers) or to send the subliminal message that traditional Christian/religious doctrine is on par with Fascism.

[Joe Brummer]

I apologize in advance if this sounds abrasive, but that is a part of the point I am making anyway. Any attempt to debunk, challenge or go against "god" is going to upset believers. In my experience, it shakes people at their core. It can be disturbing.
______________________________________________
As to your initial post:

For a non-theist, (who use to be a theist), this film makes sense to me in a way that may not make sense to you. I only hope I can help you to see the other side of the issue, and that is the other's "NEEDS". This is not a "but" or an excuse for the film, or any anti-religious person, but I do hope to open you to some nonviolence principles as well as some atheist views....

To start, I have watched a good portion of this film, and I have also read Richard Dawkins Book, "The God Delusion". I understand the need for "recovering theists" to be anti-Christian or anti-religion. I would suggest to you that anytime you see someone as anti-"fill in blank" stop looking at the what and look at the "need". What need does their "anti-?" fill? Is it anti-Christian, anti-American, anti-southerner, what is the anti and what human need is really being expressed. It is there that you will find less anger, disgust and fear.

You said you found this unpleasant, but I suspect that was because you saw this as something that had to do with you as a Christian. That was your first mistake and the mistake of all believers. This is not about you. It has everything to do with the person who created it. I am always amazed when someone is devastated at the word of others. How did you take them? Did you see a need or an attack? If you saw a need from you fellow man, than it seems more human. If you saw an attack, then CHECK AGAIN and AGAIN because the issue is, you need to look for the human need in others not the attack on you. People do not attack you; they attack their own unmet needs.

What is the human need of the speaker? When you can see this, you will not be angry, you will find empathy and compassion.

On the flip side, as an atheist, I have learned that any attempt at debunking religion seems anti-religion. This is pretty tough to get around. As respectful as one may try to be, there is little that can substitute for reason. I admit as a former believer that most religious belief is against reason. That is tough to swallow for most believers. NO one wants to hear that their belief system is against reason but all religious systems are against reason. That is why you need faith. All faith is blind by definition.

Faith is the idea that you will believe in something despite the evidence against it. Faith is the idea you will STILL believe in something the evidence is against. Faith is believing in the unbelievable. Faith does believe what cannot be believed.

I am not against religion, but I am am for its control.

Most Christians, not all, are against that, but religion is not exactly had a reputation of "making peace" in the world. A case could be made that religion supports peace, but we all know a case against religion is easier to make when we see the atrocity and th stats of atheists countries. Religion can be, has been and is the source or more violence than peace.

You need to see the other side to do away with enemy images. This is a staple of nonviolence. We all need to see the other side of the coin as a humans with NEEDS rather than an enemy with an agenda. I would suggest you look at those opposed to you with a quest for "human needs" rather than hate or belief in god. What do they need? What do they need from their "anti-gay" beliefs? Looking at these beliefs and how to fill those needs without hating gays is really important.

Imagine faith in god or religion to be like alcohol. Most that taste it are fine. Others have an unnatural obsession with it, others find it to be a reason to party, bring others together to have fun. On the other hand some have parties and think "it" enhances the party others think it invites violence to the party!

Religion and alcohol are very similar, they are either a source of energy that enhances life or a drain that causes violence. Both religion and alcohol cause peace and calm for some and pain and violence for others. Strange how similar they are.


" ...This is not about you. It has everything to do with the person who created it. I am always amazed when someone is devastated at the word of others. How did you take them? Did you see a need or an attack? If you saw a need from you fellow man, than it seems more human. If you saw an attack, then CHECK AGAIN and AGAIN because the issue is, you need to look for the human need in others not the attack on you. People do not attack YOU, they attack their own unmet needs.

[Dumbledore]

Definitely take some time to visit unChristian. It is a book and site run by Evangelical Christians that realize that Christianity has gone wrong. Let's hope this really makes a difference.

http://www.unchristian.com/

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore

Definitely take some time to visit unChristian. It is a book and site run by Evangelical Christians that realize that Christianity has gone wrong. Let's hope this really makes a difference.

http://www.unchristian.com/

Yes! and actually read the book. very compelling.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

I apologize in advance if this sounds abrasive, but that is a part of the point I am making anyway. Any attempt to debunk, challenge or go against "god" is going to upset believers. In my experience, it shakes people at their core. It can be disturbing.
______________________________________________
As to your initial post:

For a non-theist, (who use to be a theist), this film makes sense to me in a way that may not make sense to you. I only hope I can help you to see the other side of the issue, and that is the other's "NEEDS". This is not a "but" or an excuse for the film, or any anti-religious person, but I do hope to open you to some nonviolence principles as well as some atheist views....

To start, I have watched a good portion of this film, and I have also read Richard Dawkins Book, "The God Delusion". I understand the need for "recovering theists" to be anti-Christian or anti-religion. I would suggest to you that anytime you see someone as anti-"fill in blank" stop looking at the what and look at the "need". What need does their "anti-?" fill? Is it anti-Christian, anti-American, anti-southerner, what is the anti and what human need is really being expressed. It is there that you will find less anger, disgust and fear.

You said you found this unpleasant, but I suspect that was because you saw this as something that had to do with you as a Christian. That was your first mistake and the mistake of all believers. This is not about you. It has everything to do with the person who created it. I am always amazed when someone is devastated at the word of others. How did you take them? Did you see a need or an attack? If you saw a need from you fellow man, than it seems more human. If you saw an attack, then CHECK AGAIN and AGAIN because the issue is, you need to look for the human need in others not the attack on you. People do not attack you; they attack their own unmet needs.

What is the human need of the speaker? When you can see this, you will not be angry, you will find empathy and compassion.

On the flip side, as an atheist, I have learned that any attempt at debunking religion seems anti-religion. This is pretty tough to get around. As respectful as one may try to be, there is little that can substitute for reason. I admit as a former believer that most religious belief is against reason. That is tough to swallow for most believers. NO one wants to hear that their belief system is against reason but all religious systems are against reason. That is why you need faith. All faith is blind by definition.

Faith is the idea that you will believe in something despite the evidence against it. Faith is the idea you will STILL believe in something the evidence is against. Faith is believing in the unbelievable. Faith does believe what cannot be believed.

I am not against religion, but I am am for its control.

Most Christians, not all, are against that, but religion is not exactly had a reputation of "making peace" in the world. A case could be made that religion supports peace, but we all know a case against religion is easier to make when we see the atrocity and th stats of atheists countries. Religion can be, has been and is the source or more violence than peace.

You need to see the other side to do away with enemy images. This is a staple of nonviolence. We all need to see the other side of the coin as a humans with NEEDS rather than an enemy with an agenda. I would suggest you look at those opposed to you with a quest for "human needs" rather than hate or belief in god. What do they need? What do they need from their "anti-gay" beliefs? Looking at these beliefs and how to fill those needs without hating gays is really important.

Imagine faith in god or religion to be like alcohol. Most that taste it are fine. Others have an unnatural obsession with it, others find it to be a reason to party, bring others together to have fun. On the other hand some have parties and think "it" enhances the party others think it invites violence to the party!

Religion and alcohol are very similar, they are either a source of energy that enhances life or a drain that causes violence. Both religion and alcohol cause peace and calm for some and pain and violence for others. Strange how similar they are.


" ...This is not about you. It has everything to do with the person who created it. I am always amazed when someone is devastated at the word of others. How did you take them? Did you see a need or an attack? If you saw a need from you fellow man, than it seems more human. If you saw an attack, then CHECK AGAIN and AGAIN because the issue is, you need to look for the human need in others not the attack on you. People do not attack YOU, they attack their own unmet needs.

Wow! That was very indepth. Thanks for that wonderful reply. I agree with most of what you said. This really helped me.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Yes! and actually read the book. very compelling.

I just went to the website and realized my Pastor contributed. Sweet!

[yesdrs13]

Originally Posted by Gregory_de_Bois

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

I don't like this film. At least not the first third of it. I don't like how virulently anti-Christian (and religion) it was. I need you to pray for me. I believe strongly in God. I'm not really that conservative, I am more of a post-liberal, but this movie was just unpleasant.

Have any of you seen this?

Hi, I'm new to this site today and wanted to find more input of this film... I, obviously, found it and agree with you... I don't believe in the first part of this film, but the thing that I was really upset about it was the last part of the North American Union and the "Veri-chip" implanted into humans... I'm sorry but my belief is that if I was intended to have a "chip", I would have been born with one from God... not implanted from our "wonderful" government.

I also wanted to note that there is a web-site that people are forming AGAINST this procedure... you can look it up at

http://noverichipinside.com/

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Originally Posted by yesdrs13

Hi, I'm new to this site today and wanted to find more input of this film... I, obviously, found it and agree with you... I don't believe in the first part of this film, but the thing that I was really upset about it was the last part of the North American Union and the "Veri-chip" implanted into humans... I'm sorry but my belief is that if I was intended to have a "chip", I would have been born with one from God... not implanted from our "wonderful" government.

I also wanted to note that there is a web-site that people are forming AGAINST this procedure... you can look it up at

http://noverichipinside.com/

In retrospect, I find the first section entriguing as I think it further points to Christ. I didn't finish the film, but I think I would be less disturbed by it now. As for the verichip, well I don't know what to think about that right now.

[scrupulous_stoic]

I've noticed several discrempensies with the documentary's section on Christianity. Minor, but still there.

[Emproph]

I watched the whole thing. I wasn’t planning on it, but after what’s been said in the comments, I was curious.

No doubt it grabs you right away, but several minutes in, once the information portion began to flow, I was hooked. Watched it in one sitting.

It’s nearly 2 hrs long, but I IMPLORE those of you who’ve only seen part of it, to watch it till the end. Everything that was said in the beginning of it was meant to provide context to it’s ending warning and HOPE.
~~~
Here’s a tip if you want to play it from the point where you left off, or anywhere else in between:

Google videos (and youtube videos for that matter) cannot be navigated until the entire portion of the video downloads. Which usually takes longer than the play speed of the video itself.

In other words, if you miss something somebody said, or want to skip ahead, you can’t do that until your computer reads the entire video. You can see this happening when the line on the play-bar moves past the point it is playing at.

Until that bar reaches the end, you can’t go back or forth in the video.

So here’s a tip if you want to play it from the point where you left off, or anywhere else in between. Play it (or download it) while you’re not using the computer, or set aside a window to do so in while you’re working on the comp. Make sure to turn down the volume bar too until you’re ready to watch it.

~~~
That said, this was one of the most incredible things I’ve ever seen in my life. It should be required viewing for everyone on the planet. If for no other reason than it’s potentially prophetic vision (so as to compare against the very near future).

It could easily be construed as one of the grandest compilations and expressions of conspiracy theories, but for me, the ending left no doubt. The message was about love, albeit to WAKE THE HELL UP and love! But still, love.

Everything else in the movie was designed to lead up to that. And for those of you who have not watched, be warned, not only are there some very hard things to consider, but there are also some very harsh images in it, which once seen, cannot be forgotten.

If the news actually showed the news, there would be no war in Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter. America would see to it, but we’re suckers for a good time. And that’s the entire point of this film. We’re dead asleep to our own future, and it’s right here in front of our faces to see, if we just look.
~~~
It wasn’t about any contention with Christianity or Jesus as far as I could see. His point was to show that the attributes of Jesus Christ’s life, were not unique in the historical record. The film documents several examples of historical figures that have the exact same profile, physically, and in a spiritual sense, that Jesus had.

I have to do more research, but I saw the film’s point for this, as a precursor to show how man has been manipulated, via religion, through readily available conceptual structures, throughout the ages.

For the record, I’m a seer, but that only came after having been a believer. So for me, I can imagine that these different expressions of saviors may have all been the same person.

Point being, you can go either way with the information presented. You can say everything is false, or you can hold room for an even larger truth.

Most importantly though, it shouldn't matter which is the case. Think about it, even if all those historical figures WE’RE Jesus in different forms, with all of the power of God at their disposal, they still are incapable, or unwilling to prove that fact to us, right here and right now.

Clearly, there must be a reason for this.

We just can never know, at least at this point. But what we DO know, is that love is the answer. Doing unto others as we would have done unto us, treating others as we would want to be treated - the Golden Rule. This much clarity has been instilled in us as being what is best for all, whether one believes in a god or not.

This was the entire purpose of the film. Not only does the non-belief, or belief in a god not separate us, but that the very IDEA of such a separation between ourselves and others, has been being exploited since the dawn of man. The moment we stood up and said “I am,” was the moment someone else stood up and said “I am better than you are.”

Which has now lead to 9/11 being an inside job. They document that, and then document how WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, were all, also perpetrated by our own US Gov. And then conclude that if the Gov. was not responsible for it this time, it would be the exception to the rule.

This was to take away our rights, in order to wage an unjust war, on an oil rich country, for the sake of more power. And it’s just the beginning, there’s still the matter of causing another, greater terrorist attack, so that the Constitution can be scrapped outright, and we can thus invade Iran, not to mention reinstitute the draft. Not to mention the Bush administration staying in power indefinitely.

We shall soon see if this presidential campaigning is real, or just being allowed for the time being.
~~~

Originally Posted by yesdrs13

Hi, I'm new to this site today and wanted to find more input of this film... I, obviously, found it and agree with you... I don't believe in the first part of this film, but the thing that I was really upset about it was the last part of the North American Union and the "Veri-chip" implanted into humans... I'm sorry but my belief is that if I was intended to have a "chip", I would have been born with one from God... not implanted from our "wonderful" government.

I also wanted to note that there is a web-site that people are forming AGAINST this procedure... you can look it up at

http://noverichipinside.com/

Thanks for the link yesdrs.

I don’t think you meant to characterize the film of being supportive of “the veri-chip,” so I wanted to clarify that for anyone who hasn’t watched it yet.

The film was warning of real examples of HOW this is coming to be. The most important thing they said about the matter was that it wouldn’t be forced on us, we would demand it as a populace. All it takes is another, greater, terrorist attack, and we’ll be so panicked, that we’ll approve a law deeming that all houses must be built of Plexiglas.

Wiping my ass in full view of the traffic on Main street and Noggin, embarrassing. The fact that I won’t be shot while doing it, priceless.

All the explosives for the tenets of our civil rights have been put in place as the result of 9/11. One more similar attack, and the implosion occurs. And then it will be virtually too late. We’ve had ample time to see that the fundamentalists are indeed insane. Another, even larger fear of death mantra to fuel their already faithless panicky souls, and they will come out of the woodwork in droves to see to it that every man woman and child on Earth is implanted with a chip to avoid another “terrorist” attack.

Remember, your bank account, passport and legal identity is on that chip. You protest the government, and they turn it off.
~~~
I’ve already come to these conclusions, at least as a very plausible possibility. So I don’t need the film to tell me this stuff.

One of the unique things about this film is it’s genre and editing. It’s almost a testament to editing itself. The voice over is minimal - the only original part of it. The rest is existing and historical audio, video, imagery, and text, to convey the message - presented in very short attention span formula - for 2 hours!
~~~
Again, you have to watch it till the end, because it basically comes full circle back to the beginning. Even IF Jesus, or any of the other savior characters in human history weren’t real, their message is STILL the ultimate truth - to love others as ourself, to do unto others as we would have done unto us.

This is our salvation.

[daniel Ray]

Originally Posted by Emproph

I watched the whole thing. I wasn’t planning on it, but after what’s been said in the comments, I was curious.

No doubt it grabs you right away, but several minutes in, once the information portion began to flow, I was hooked. Watched it in one sitting.

It’s nearly 2 hrs long, but I IMPLORE those of you who’ve only seen part of it, to watch it till the end. Everything that was said in the beginning of it was meant to provide context to it’s ending warning and HOPE.
~~~
Here’s a tip if you want to play it from the point where you left off, or anywhere else in between:

~~~
That said, this was one of the most incredible things I’ve ever seen in my life. It should be required viewing for everyone on the planet. If for no other reason than it’s potentially prophetic vision (so as to compare against the very near future).

It could easily be construed as one of the grandest compilations and expressions of conspiracy theories, but for me, the ending left no doubt. The message was about love, albeit to WAKE THE HELL UP and love! But still, love.

Everything else in the movie was designed to lead up to that. And for those of you who have not watched, be warned, not only are there some very hard things to consider, but there are also some very harsh images in it, which once seen, cannot be forgotten.

I have not seen the movie, however, after reading this thread i have a definate vision of its content; as if imagineing the crusifixion scene of Jesus Christ were'nt horrible enough in itself. Just as the gospels show us, a conspiracy was in place, to end the threat of Jesus' teachings, which were to bring truth and freedom to those oppressed by the leaders of his day. The prophetic potential would be the same as that shown in The New Testament, continueing for the past two millennium. I think Jesus was saying, wake up!

If the news actually showed the news, there would be no war in Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter. America would see to it, but we’re suckers for a good time. And that’s the entire point of this film. We’re dead asleep to our own future, and it’s right here in front of our faces to see, if we just look.
~~~
It wasn’t about any contention with Christianity or Jesus as far as I could see. His point was to show that the attributes of Jesus Christ’s life, were not unique in the historical record. The film documents several examples of historical figures that have the exact same profile, physically, and in a spiritual sense, that Jesus had.

I have to do more research, but I saw the film’s point for this, as a precursor to show how man has been manipulated, via religion, through readily available conceptual structures, throughout the ages.

For the record, I’m a seer, but that only came after having been a believer. So for me, I can imagine that these different expressions of saviors may have all been the same person.

Again, i see this as the message that Jesus brought us, as well as the other spiritiual teachers that fit the same profile. They are saying that we have the truth, right in front of us, actually right within us. The news we subject ourselfs to is reported as to what someone else wants us to hear and see, like you say, not necessarily factual. Jesus and other teachers were able to see this clearly and they struggled against the manipulation, that is certainly a portion of thier messages. Wheather they are seen as seperate or the same, the messages do parallel.

Point being, you can go either way with the information presented. You can say everything is false, or you can hold room for an even larger truth.

I've been having a discussion on this with two friends this past week. My church tends to go back to The Old Testament frequently, (there are some good lessons to be found there) but no matter where you go, it seems obvious to me that all comes back to one point: Accept the truth, let go of the past and walk boldly forward (holding to your saviors hand) into the world. Step into the light! walk with understanding, forgivness, acceptance, shake off all the "demons" you can and love one another. I believe Jesus says, open your eyes, mind and heart.

Most importantly though, it shouldn't matter which is the case. Think about it, even if all those historical figures WE’RE Jesus in different forms, with all of the power of God at their disposal, they still are incapable, or unwilling to prove that fact to us, right here and right now.

Clearly, there must be a reason for this.

We just can never know, at least at this point. But what we DO know, is that love is the answer. Doing unto others as we would have done unto us, treating others as we would want to be treated - the Golden Rule. This much clarity has been instilled in us as being what is best for all, whether one believes in a god or not.

We are the ones who have to prove that Jesus (and other spiritual figures) is right here, right now, not him (them). Yes, my friend, The Golden Rule, i doubt we would be here in such great numbers today without it.

This was the entire purpose of the film. Not only does the non-belief, or belief in a god not separate us, but that the very IDEA of such a separation between ourselves and others, has been being exploited since the dawn of man. The moment we stood up and said “I am,” was the moment someone else stood up and said “I am better than you are.”

Which has now lead to 9/11 being an inside job. They document that, and then document how WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, were all, also perpetrated by our own US Gov. And then conclude that if the Gov. was not responsible for it this time, it would be the exception to the rule.

This was to take away our rights, in order to wage an unjust war, on an oil rich country, for the sake of more power. And it’s just the beginning, there’s still the matter of causing another, greater terrorist attack, so that the Constitution can be scrapped outright, and we can thus invade Iran, not to mention reinstitute the draft. Not to mention the Bush administration staying in power indefinitely.

We shall soon see if this presidential campaigning is real, or just being allowed for the time being.

~~~

Yes, we have been and are being exploited, no question about that. The powers that be are just that, whoever has the most money or resourses has the most power. This is why we need to wake up, so that we can support eachother and help our brothers and sisters to deal with the pain, opression and misery brought about by the world authorities, right on down to the local authorities, even our local "moral majority", friends and family.

Thanks for the link yesdrs.

I don’t think you meant to characterize the film of being supportive of “the veri-chip,” so I wanted to clarify that for anyone who hasn’t watched it yet.

The film was warning of real examples of HOW this is coming to be. The most important thing they said about the matter was that it wouldn’t be forced on us, we would demand it as a populace. All it takes is another, greater, terrorist attack, and we’ll be so panicked, that we’ll approve a law deeming that all houses must be built of Plexiglas.

Wiping my ass in full view of the traffic on Main street and Noggin, embarrassing. The fact that I won’t be shot while doing it, priceless.

All the explosives for the tenets of our civil rights have been put in place as the result of 9/11. One more similar attack, and the implosion occurs. And then it will be virtually too late. We’ve had ample time to see that the fundamentalists are indeed insane. Another, even larger fear of death mantra to fuel their already faithless panicky souls, and they will come out of the woodwork in droves to see to it that every man woman and child on Earth is implanted with a chip to avoid another “terrorist” attack.

Remember, your bank account, passport and legal identity is on that chip. You protest the government, and they turn it off.
~~~
I’ve already come to these conclusions, at least as a very plausible possibility. So I don’t need the film to tell me this stuff.

This is downright scarey! I'm afraid it is inevitable, the chips are comeing, hopefully not in my lifetime. BTW, that's a real crappy vision you gave us :-). At this point i might want to close my eyes. No matter what, we will need to take the saviors hand to be able to endure our futures, beginning, this next moment.

One of the unique things about this film is it’s genre and editing. It’s almost a testament to editing itself. The voice over is minimal - the only original part of it. The rest is existing and historical audio, video, imagery, and text, to convey the message - presented in very short attention span formula - for 2 hours!
~~~
Again, you have to watch it till the end, because it basically comes full circle back to the beginning. Even IF Jesus, or any of the other savior characters in human history weren’t real, their message is STILL the ultimate truth - to love others as ourself, to do unto others as we would have done unto us.

This is our salvation.

You are making the point - it comes full circle! This is our salvation, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. love We certainly will have to watch it until the end; even unto the beginning.