How does it feel

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Okay, I can see that. With that in mind I think the "acquaintance, a buddy, or pal, maybe a "friendly" companion with whom one can enjoy certain times together" is the step to acceptance and understanding. Get to these levels and you have a good or at least better chance to find a friend.

That's probably so. Yeah, hadn't articulated that before but it makes sense.

I tend to be pretty quick to be friendly and mostly open with people (that becomes more true with time, I seem to get more social as I grow up). But there's a point of real friendship intimacy where it only makes sense to let those cross who you know cherish the inner parts of you.

For the every day stuff, the most important thing is getting along amicably. Agreement and the deeper stuff, is not necessary for a smooth and happy companionship on an ordinary level.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by Daniel

And I wonder if I am throwing a bomb into the room, but I've been present when the banter about straight people was- shall we say- less than pleasant. Of course, the discussion (more like gossip) was not about loving the sinner, but the tone of the conversation (if you could dignify it thus) was definitely south of the border.

Born out of pain? Anger? Whatever. In the end is that an adequate excuse?

Gay. Straight. We all seem to stick together at times in some sort of herd mentality, afraid to stick our necks out of the dominant thought being offered, which is often a negative one.

Listen. I've said some very uncharitable things about my missionary older brother, who I haven't spoken to much in the last year: our last written interaction was less than savory- and I find myself still smarting at the thought of it. I let the moment pass when what could have been said should have been said (which brings to mind the' nice gay man' syndrome.....better to kill that dynamic off ASAP....it only leads...in the end...to unhappiness).

Will the breach be healed? Will this 'sinner' be seen differently? I have to confess that part of me is so angry that I don't care. Yet, there is another part of my mind that cares very much: not that I be validated by someone who invalidates me as a person, but that we are, seemingly, estranged and may never really know each other even though we are, biolgocially speaking, family.

So I say my prayers, and keep in mind that life has a way of bringing change when least expected. Sometimes we can't wait for people to catch up- or grow up. We simply have to keep going down the path we've chosen. And as is said at the end of Candide: make our garden grow.

I am so lucky to get along with my brother and sister. That said, family can be tough gay or straight issues.
I have a friend that after announcing the pregnancy of her partner, (artificial insemination) had a Brother-in-law that insisted on having an intervention. Her Father , a 75+ conservative Christian that believes homosexuality is a sin heard about it and said NO! He said, this is my daughter, agree or disagree (with her life) we love her and these are our grandchildren. (Twins)
The old man tossed his theology aside for the love of his daughter.
I'm sure the brother-in-law is still pouting. She has wonderful parents.

Sometimes we can't wait for people to catch up- or grow up. We simply have to keep going down the path we've chosen. And as is said at the end of Candide: make our garden grow.
I agree. do what brings you peace in your heart.
One thing I learned from my father is not to expect more from someone than they are capable of giving.

[daniel Ray]

The word says to love those who despitefully use us. That may be a difficult task but should bring growth. It becomes more difficult to use someone who shows you love.

[drewcaine]

It's very ambivalent...just the other day I was talking with Shane and he was like, "I have no beef with you homosexuality whatever, I mean, that's...that's your choice, do whatever you want to." He was more concerned with my character, and which is something that I did on Facebook and won't discuss it right here...but it was something I only semi-intentionally did.
I'll have to discuss homosexuality with him one day. I don't consider myself part of the church, I only care about the Lions for Christ group.
drewcaine

[scott snedeker]

I have so little free time (I'm sneaking a break at work now) that I find that I must be very careful how I spend it.

If I waste my time with someone who is passively homophobic, I get very angry with myself.

I believe this illlustrates cultivation of a sense of entitlement to the comfort and joy of being embraced just the way I am.

Not attacked

Not Shunned

Not discriminated against

Not Tolerated

Not Accepted

But Embraced

The rest is a waste of my life and spirit.

I feel it!

It's Time to live!

[Zerbie]

Like this?
((((((((((((((( Scotty )))))))))))))))))



Namasté, Ash.

[Alecto]

::internet crush on scotty gets this || much bigger::

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Like this?
((((((((((((((( Scotty )))))))))))))))))



Namasté, Ash.

Originally Posted by Alecto

::internet crush on scotty gets this || much bigger::

Oh yeah! You guys are the best!!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Oh yeah! You guys are the best!!

Nah! We just love you so much, that's all.

[Daniel]

I'll go with that!

Anything less is.....well......less.

And while I agree that a nonviolent response (of the mind, word, deed) to passive (much less active) homophobia can be a hard road, there are problems- practically speaking - with following the scriptural admonition that has been offered by Daniel Ray.

Embracing. Embracement- comes after there is a connection. And one cannot force a connection, either with one's inner being or an external person- this much we know from modern psychology. Loving one's enemies- is not where one starts, but were ones ends after much practice.

Where does one start?

One answer: there are things to be learned from other faiths. Christianity is big on what to do (a good thing) and Buddhism, Jainism etc are big on how to do what must be done (a good thing).

Breaking the matter down? Buddhism, Janism etc suggest having compassion for one's self first, then extending it to others in a systematic way. Enemies? Not first on the list. Why? Because there is something called training the mind. And the untrained mind doesn't respond very well. Giving it the hardest thing to do first is kinda stupid. Kinda like giving someone who can't play a simple scale a Beethoven Sonata.

This kind of thing takes time, energy and commitment.

I say keep the thing simple: practice, whether is it scales or love, can be done in ten minute segments. It may not seem like a lot, but it adds up.

Where did I learn this? From a worldclass musician. She said to me: "Learn your arias in bits and pieces- before you know it, you will have the whole thing down." She was right. I think the same thing applies to love.

The goal? How to be a wordclass lover.

[scott snedeker]

This lesson keeps coming up!!! Fear has always been a rotten influence on my decisions.

Love from within. For some reason I'm struggling with this again. Is this like your Beethoven sonata example, Daniel? Like Beethoven's music in which he will take a theme and develop it and invert it and develop it and change the key, and develop it and......

Am I doing the same thing? And why? Just today I had to stop feeling guilty for taking time off work. Now I have been worked to a frazzle---294 hours in 4 weeks! why should I feel guilty?

I had to turn it around and pat my self on the back for standing up and taking care of my needs. I had to praise myself for exploring ways to let in joy, because I deserve to be treated well by my self!

Only then did my fear of failure evaporate and my ticking stop. How do you sanctify loving and praising yourself?

Gotta learn that one!

Does service to others before you can love yourself harm you emotionally and spiritually? I think sometimes it does by reinforcing the lie that other people's needs are more important than yours.

So then does that mean that learning to love yourself and care for your needs benefits others collaterally?

I like that one! Evaporates guilt with no residue!

[Zerbie]

Oh Scotty, darlin'!

We cannot serve others if we are run down into the dust. If we become exhausted, near-annihilated shadows, how much less then we may ever offer to the world.

This is one of those things like putting on your own oxygen mask first before assisting your child. Gotta make it habitual. If we aren't in top form (or close to it) we are then offering less of our spirit, less of our potential intelligence, alertness, awareness, strength, reserve, etc than we could. The stronger we are, the more we will have to give. And when we are strong in ourselves, giving becomes a joy, as it is meant to be.

[paul]

Whew,

For most of my life I have tried to develope love based on my own understanding of the bible's instruction on the topic. I have also been influenced by Buddhism and Hindu stuff mixed in along the way, particularly in regards to how I interpret the bible.

Here's the gist of it. I took a lot of my definition of love from I Corinthians 13: "...love is patient, kind, is not self seeking, keeps no record of wrongs, always trusts, always hopes, always persevers. Love never fails..."

I mixed that together with: "love the Lord your God with your whole being and love your neighbor as yourself," "there is no greater love than to give up your life for another," "love your enemies," and "we love because God first loved us."

For me, those scriptures left no room for myself. Yes, I understand now how they can being interpreted differently to include self love, particularly, "love your neighbor as your self." But I never really bought into that as a Christian. My take was that Jesus taught that we have to "lose our life to find it." My interpretation was we "lose our life" by loving, and the greatest lover gives up their life.

What I discovered early on was, this is impossible (how can self be unself[ish]). I cannot do it. I figured since the directive to love remained inspite of my lack, that there must be a different answer. I then figured the source of love existed outside of I, i.e., God. "God is love." I came to believe that love has to come from "God," that I had to connect to God in order to love...or put another way, the opportunity to love is an opportunity to connect to God. The bible teaches that "in God we live and move and have our being."

In the last few years my take on love has been shifting. We are all connected, so by loving another, we are actually loving ourselves as well. The better we love another, the better we love ourself. It all figures into the unseen and the eternal, in my feel.

I like Daniels term "world class lovers," I sense the goal behind it is to go beyond. I am suspecting that to do this I have to disconect from the seen, from the temporal, and act as an eternal being in a temporary situation. That eternal perspective is what gets me past the unreasonableness of loving my enemy.