Outing in Church

[hkhb15963]

I dont know if you've read my "Hi, My Name Is..." Post, but I, like the author of this thread (presumably since he's an Evangel Grad) have had quite a few dealings with the dramatic clash that homosexuality and christianity seem to produce when in the same proximity. My life's ambition was to be a minister, mostly because I love people, and firmly believed that Christianity was the most effective tool for helping people. After all, the tagline at most churches is "come experience life to its fullest" or "be set free" or "empowering disciples to make a difference" etc etc. Having been on staff at a "mega-church" I have seen the underbelly of control and fear-motivated propoganda at its worst, and I completely understand why anyone who's taken a bite out of the american church would promptly spit it back out. Throughout History, religion, on whole, has been responsible for some of the most cruel, inhumane, and unjust acts. (see http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html )

The real problem is not a single religion, although Christianity and Paulianty (haha) certainly hold their fair share of discrepancies. The issue is when something as personal and intimate as spirituality is mandated by a committee, board, denomination, govt entity, etc. The teachings of Christ are beautiful, as are the teachings of nearly all the worlds religions, its the interpretation of those teachings with intent for exclusivity and intolerance and hatred for others who disagree, that produce the hostile environment for GLBT's and any other "other" that is out there in the world. As for hatred and murder being equal, I think the purpose of that teaching is to show that our internal "sins" are just as relevant as our external "sins". To hate another is to wish them removed, either by wishing them dead or wishing them to be someone else....

Luckily, for most GLBT's being someone else just isn't an option anymore.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by hkhb15963

I dont know if you've read my "Hi, My Name Is..." Post, but I, like the author of this thread (presumably since he's an Evangel Grad) have had quite a few dealings with the dramatic clash that homosexuality and christianity seem to produce when in the same proximity. My life's ambition was to be a minister, mostly because I love people, and firmly believed that Christianity was the most effective tool for helping people.

The real problem is not a single religion, although Christianity and Paulianty (haha) certainly hold their fair share of discrepancies. The issue is when something as personal and intimate as spirituality is mandated by a committee, board, denomination, govt entity, etc. The teachings of Christ are beautiful, as are the teachings of nearly all the worlds religions, its the interpretation of those teachings with intent for exclusivity and intolerance and hatred for others who disagree, that produce the hostile environment for GLBT's and any other "other" that is out there in the world.

And when I came out I left the AG church. No two ways about it. I wasn't about to- or capable then- of making an effort to stay in the church. It didn't enter my mind as an alternative. And in those years (80's), there was only the very beginnings what has now become gay congregations which are pentecostal. And to be truthful, I'm not sure how I would feel being in that kind of environment now. I've morphed into a Buddhist who leans towards - at least outwardly- the Episcopal Service.

I love the way you state matters and your perspective. Like Zerbie- I hadn't thought of the extent to which Paulianty (or Paulianity?) is part and parcel of modern Christianity- and it's effect on gay people. You've really put your finger on something by giving this aspect a name.

Glad you are here!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

.

Like Zerbie- I hadn't thought of the extent to which Paulianty (or Paulianity?) is part and parcel of modern Christianity- and it's effect on gay people. You've really put your finger on something by giving this aspect a name.

!

Just to be clear, I meant that I had been putting it in exactly those terms and thought I was the only one.

To hk: I do not misunderstand the relevance of hatred as an inner enemy. That is a very relevant conversation to have. I am wary of "equating" words to murder b/c the actions are not the same. They can have a cause/effect, which is why it's relevant. But if we say speech is equal to murder, here we go into the 'hate speech' worm can, not to mention by saying this woman's words are equal to murder, we open ourselves to the arguments saying *we* are the intolerant ones for wanting no view but "ours" expressed. It is such a wormcan.

I do understand why you said it. It's a step I'd like to qualify, personally, is all.

I hope that was clear - I have to log off literally this very second.

[BruceChris]

I remember the story of Denmark, when it was occupied during the second world war. The Germans gave orders that all Jews must wear a yellow Star of David, to make themselves plainly visible, apart from the ordinary Danes.

So the king of Denmark called for a gathering of the Danish people, and when they had assembled, he walked out on the balcony in front of them, proudly wearing a yellow Star of David.

It was quite a fashion statement, soon everyone was wearing it, and it drove the Germans nuts.

I would hope that some respected heterosexual member of that church would come to church wearing a pink triangle, and ask his friends and fellow church members to do the same.

Or as John Kennedy, when confronted by the East Germans about the future sovereignty of Berlin, said, "Ich Bein Ein Berliner" !


http://www.glsenco.org/Resources/GLB...k_triangle.htm

Peace and somewhat militant Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

In fact, it's a fabulous idea.

Isn't it interesting that we tend to think that we are the ones that have to 'fix' the problem, when, in fact, the 'solution' can be found outside the 'box'.

And to go laterally a bit- as is my wont sometimes- you post reminded me of the words of Oscar Wilde:

Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much.

While I imagine Wilde meant to be witty- and he was a very witty man- there is an element of truth in what he said. And your reminding us of the actions of the courageous Danish would seem to be a variation of Wilde's observation.

Nothing is so befuddling - and mind expanding- as when people stop playing by the rules set for them by others.

Great post BruceChris!

[pnggrad79]

Anyone who outs someone without their knowledge or consent is just wrong. This person is obviously got issues. OMG! Is it any wonder that wonderful people like Zerbie are turned off to church when there as so many assholes in it. I think Jesus knew that, too!

[hkhb15963]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

To hk: I do not misunderstand the relevance of hatred as an inner enemy. That is a very relevant conversation to have. I am wary of "equating" words to murder b/c the actions are not the same. They can have a cause/effect, which is why it's relevant. But if we say speech is equal to murder, here we go into the 'hate speech' worm can, not to mention by saying this woman's words are equal to murder, we open ourselves to the arguments saying *we* are the intolerant ones for wanting no view but "ours" expressed. It is such a wormcan.

I do understand why you said it. It's a step I'd like to qualify, personally, is all.

I hope that was clear - I have to log off literally this very second.

I certainly hear your perspective Zerbie, and I must say that I value your analytical abilities and appreciate your propensity for concise debate. I certainly agree that the consequences of murder and hatred differ, especially with regard to penalty in the physical world. However, in the realm of theology, in dealing with issues of sin and spiritual consequence with regard to holiness as perceived by mainstream christianity, the evil of murdering is on the same level as the evil of hatred. 1 John 3:15 says "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer..." My comment was intended to highlight the blatant disregard of this theological principle. I carefully chose the phrase: "In the language of Christ ...." because these are not necessarily my opinions expressed or implied, simply a broader context of the same "system of belief" that is so often misused to justify spiritual violence. If any intolerance is present, it is the intolerance of her own religion against her actions. Scary!