My first post

[Zerbie]

Big hugs!

((((( Chuck )))))


You got it.

My heart goes out to you, dealing with such things. Never having been in any similar situation, and not knowing you or your wife, I wouldn't dare to advise. You mentioned earlier that there was some abuse. You might want to bounce around with someone with some expertise dealing with troubled/abusive relationships to get their tips on most effective ways to go about the process of deciding to leave/how to leave, etc., since it sounds like that is what you are thinking of doing. It might help carry you through the difficult time to have a caring voice walk you through what worked/didn't work for them, for other guys in similar situations, etc.

You definitely have our prayers and best wishes. May the process be as minimally painful for all involved as it can possibly be.

[chuck2pastor]

For years I have struggled with self acceptance and self-love and a poor self image. There are many reasons for this struggle, parents, older brother, school friends who were always smarter than I was, but when I realized that I was gay and that the Bible called homosexuals an abomination-- then I really doubted that God loved me. I have struggled with this feeling for a long time, even as I have preached that God loves everyone, it was often God loves everyone but me. I am glad to say that now I know that God loves even me, and I am grateful for Mel White's sermon How Can I be Sure God Love Me too. His message touched me deeply. I am so glad to be a part of this forum, that Soulforce is here for people like me.

[Zerbie]

(((((((((( Chuck )))))))))))


So glad you made it here.

[daniel Ray]

Hi , I'm sure you know lots of scripture so this is just a reminder.

Jesus said. "Peace i leave with you, my peace i give unto you: not as the world giveth, give i unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14: 27

You are not alone.

[chuck2pastor]

I am planning to talk to my wife about my being gay and how that impacts our future relationship. I have outlined what I am going to say to her so that I am taking full responsibility and not blaming her in any way, and I plan to tell her explicitly that it's not her fault that I'm gay. She already knows I am attracted to men, but I had told her I was bisexual -- because I thought, somehow that was less of a blow to her than to think of me as exclusively gay. In my situation, I don't see how I can remain married to her. It's hard for me to admit that to myself, to write it in this forum and it will be even harder to tell my wife. But I cannot put this off much longer.

[paul]

Originally Posted by chuck2pastor

I am planning to talk to my wife about my being gay and how that impacts our future relationship. I have outlined what I am going to say to her so that I am taking full responsibility and not blaming her in any way, and I plan to tell her explicitly that it's not her fault that I'm gay. She already knows I am attracted to men, but I had told her I was bisexual -- because I thought, somehow that was less of a blow to her than to think of me as exclusively gay. In my situation, I don't see how I can remain married to her. It's hard for me to admit that to myself, to write it in this forum and it will be even harder to tell my wife. But I cannot put this off much longer.

Ah Chuck,

I am sorry. I know what you contemplate is scary, and that's sad. It is sad that being honest should be reason for fear. I understand, I have been there. I am paying for my honesty still (we come from similar situations). If I had to do it over again, I would still be honest. The cost of living a lie is much higher than the cost of honesty.

my best to you.
paul

[chuck2pastor]

Through our ups and downs, my wife has stayed with me because of our kids, and I think that she will not out me professionally for fear of losing the income needed to take care of them.

If she does out me professionally, I don't know what I will do. I have never had any other full time job, and my background with a major in psychology doesn't go too far -- counseling really requires at least a master's and preferably a Ph.D. There's a hiring freeze in my state right now so I couldn't find work there (which is what I had thought I might do if it came to this.) I will see where the Lord leads me. I will let you know when I plan to tell her, but it won't be in the next two weeks.

I have to plan out what to say to my kids and get feedback about that before I continue.

Just keep me in your prayers.

Chuck

[scott snedeker]

"Fear not"

Hmmmm who said that?

Don't let fear keep you from making the changes. I feel that you are growing out of the abused martyr stage similar to What I did. The Future has its challenges and its rewards. Looking back and especially going backward wont go on long even if you do. The stream of time pushes you forward without stopping. You are growing spiritually. You may even find yourself doing something completely different, Like waiting tables, and loving the novelty of a completely different way of making a living, of making friends with people who like you because you are gay from the start!

You might at a moment realize: How can I ever go back! I can't fit all that I am back into that tiny dark eggshell! I'm real! I'm alive! and I'm making it on my own terms!

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by chuck2pastor

Through our ups and downs, my wife has stayed with me because of our kids, and I think that she will not out me professionally for fear of losing the income needed to take care of them.

If she does out me professionally, I don't know what I will do. I have never had any other full time job, and my background with a major in psychology doesn't go too far -- counseling really requires at least a master's and preferably a Ph.D. There's a hiring freeze in my state right now so I couldn't find work there (which is what I had thought I might do if it came to this.) I will see where the Lord leads me. I will let you know when I plan to tell her, but it won't be in the next two weeks.

I have to plan out what to say to my kids and get feedback about that before I continue.

Just keep me in your prayers.

Chuck

my ex did everything she could to out me, sometimes, I swear she was stopping strangers on the street to tell them it backfired. she ended up looking pretty bad. as scotty preaches here, don't let fear hold you back. what happens will happen, and you WILL be able to handle it as it comes.

[Zerbie]

Hmmmm, am I being a naysayer here?

I would suggest to Chuck (and am suggesting it!) that you have at the very least *some*thing in mind to turn to in the event that, despite your expectation, perhaps your wife *does* out you at work.

Did you not earlier in the thread mention that you thought some of her behavior was abusive? (If I'm confusing you with another poster please forgive the error!!) If so, it might not be outside the realm of possibility for her to take an action in order to be controlling, shaming, or punitive. Statistics show that men who take steps to dissolve or leave relationships with abusive women are most likely to be targeted for punitive or vengeful actions during the time of leaving.

She *might* mayyyyybe take action against you in anger --- I'm not trying to judge your wife's character, I have no idea who either of you are and could not begin to do so. But from hearing what I've heard from you (if I haven't confused you with someone else), I do think you'd be wise to have something in the works as a professional 'safety' plan just in case the worst happens.

Then, once you have a safety plan sketched out, go and do as Scotty says and be fearless. Like packing a first aid kit for a long hiking trip, have your safety sketched out in case you need it, then forget about it and concentrate on the adventure ahead.

Balance.

[chuck2pastor]

I'm not a Calvinist (and I don't want to discuss all the issues that pertain to that) but I agree with U-dog's post and I don't see what it is about his post that is Calvinist. Am I missing something?

[chuck2pastor]

I don't think I'm being inauthentic because I choose not to share with my congregation and denominational leaders things which are really none of their business. There is a huge difference between being inauthentic and choosing carefully those to whom I share the most intimate details of my life. Many other pastors have been and are in the same position I'm in. I preach the Word every Sunday morning. I visit the sick and shut-in. I baptize infants and adults, officiate at funerals and weddings. I walk with people on their journey with Christ. The church I serve reaches out to the community in tangible ways, by providing a soup kitchen, a food pantry and financial assistance to those who need help paying their rent or electric bill or... None of these persons needs to know that I'm gay, and my coming out to them would do more harm to them than it would ever help me. Since most of the leadership of the church are homophobic, they would most likely leave the church rather than work with a gay pastor. I might change my mind one day, but for now, I choose to remain closeted at my church, even as I come out to a select group of friends.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by chuck2pastor

I don't think I'm being inauthentic because I choose not to share with my congregation and denominational leaders things which are really none of their business. There is a huge difference between being inauthentic and choosing carefully those to whom I share the most intimate details of my life. .

I agree with Chuck. Authenticity does not require divulging personal information (however politically laden it might be) to anyone and everyone.

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Well you can be authentic and get defrocked or you can be inauthentic and keep your ministry. Either way you pay a price. Ain't Methodism fun.

The struggle in life is to live as authentically as possible. It is a universal struggle, and one that most only manage to some degree.

To what is each of called to be authentic? For a GLBT person it may be that they are called to be authentic to the way in which God made them. For a minister it may be to be authentic to the call of God on their lives. It's an easy decision, really - at least, until we consider that people are not one dimensional caricatures. Nor are we two dimensional - in this case, the dichotomous choice between being authentically gay or authentically a pastor. All of us have competing aspects and priorities to which we must be authentic - and there are a hell of a lot of them.

This exchange seems to be about two different choices being made.
One way of looking at it is:
Someone made the choice to forgo ministry to be authentically gay.
Another made the choice to pursue inauthentic ministry at the expense of being authentically gay.
The other way is:
Someone made a choice to forgo authentic ministry to live as an out gay man.
Another made the choice to engage in authentic ministry at the expense of being closeted.

Neither one is a great option but, either way you look at it, the person involved made the decision to that suited who they are, where they are and what they feel called to. Both decisions come with positive aspects, and both come with negative in abundance.

The danger is that we could try to gloss over the negative price of our own decision by being self-righteous and claiming that ours is the right choice that everyone should have made. This, of course, would be self-indulgent as well as self-righteous.

The overarching problem is not that different people have made different choices, but that people have to make choices in the first place. The problem is a system in which being fully authentic is not possible. Another problem is that people who make choices might denigrate those who make different choices. When this happens, the system wins.

Personally, I find this talk about what is authentic and what isn't to be troubling. It sounds very self-righteous, self-indulgent and divisive. It also does nothing to help the person who came here looking for community and help during a difficult time in their lives.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

The overarching problem is not that different people have made different choices, but that people have to make choices in the first place. The problem is a system in which being fully authentic is not possible. Another problem is that people who make choices might denigrate those who make different choices. When this happens, the system wins.

Personally, I find this talk about what is authentic and what isn't to be troubling. It sounds very self-righteous, self-indulgent and divisive. It also does nothing to help the person who came here looking for community and help during a difficult time in their lives.

RE the part in bold: BRILLIANT! Andy, this is incredibly insightful and it gets to the core of some conflicts we as a group run across from time to time - conflicts which really can raise some tension among us. I think it's correct that the flawed 'system' wins when this happens to us. We lose solidarity when that happens to us.

Andy - I vote for you making that paragraph your new signature quote. I would love to see this quoted every day. If you don't make it a signature, well, perhaps I will. But I don't wanna ditch the Rumi, either.

Regarding your last paragraph, that is what bothered me too. I would prefer that we be here as a supportive resource and group of friends to one another, including respect for an individual's personal choice to remain 'closeted.' That is more important (at least, it is to me) than philosophies and ideologies, even important ones. The point is to serve the human being.

The danger with an ideology is when we find one that serves us, we think we've found that which will serve everyone else, and we mistake it, in a way almost as a panacea or universal rule, when in fact it was only the best of several options for us, individually. Another individual's best option may be one that was not good for us.

Regarding our disagreement with Antony, whom I love, I also think it's really clear that Antony speaks the way he does out of a desire to preserve and protect others from pain and great emotional cost, and to help make that flawed system obsolete. But Antony: I agree with Chuck & Andy that there is no one always 'correct' option. As Andy points out, either 'choice' is one not made in freedom but made under duress. If we miss this point, the 'system' that constrained our choices remains intact.

[chuck2pastor]

I have heard the above quoted many times. Although I have never preached on any GLBT issues (either pro or con), I have joined a group in my AC which advocates for the full inclusion of the GLBT community in the life of the church, including ordination. So I'm not exactly silent, even though the average person thinks of me as a straight friend of the gay community.

As I struggle with coming out to my family, I don't have the emotional wherewithal to deal with coming out professionally. I understand that my wife may indeed out me to my religious community and that I may well have to switch jobs rather quickly, but I need to move ahead without having all the answers in place. I pray that I am following God's leading and not simply my own desires. If I am doing God's will, then God will indeed lead me to whatever work God has for me.

Peace,
Chuck

[scott snedeker]

Chuck, I think you are doing great. You are overcoming your fear of the repercussions of being known as a Gay being. I think it is okay to come out in a piece at a time, to ease your fear a portion at a Time.

The worst fears are phobias like arachnophobia for instance. If you were to drop a tarantula on the head of someone with arachnophobia, you would traumatize that person. But if you gradually desensitized them by starting with a tiny spider across the room and each day got a little closer, eventually the person could be holding a tarantula and petting her.

You have had amazing success so far. You are pecisely where you are supposed to be right now. It's perfectly sucessful to venture only so far from your comfort zone and hold for a while until you are ready to venture further

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by chuck2pastor

As I struggle with coming out to my family, I don't have the emotional wherewithal to deal with coming out professionally. I understand that my wife may indeed out me to my religious community and that I may well have to switch jobs rather quickly, but I need to move ahead without having all the answers in place. I pray that I am following God's leading and not simply my own desires. If I am doing God's will, then God will indeed lead me to whatever work God has for me.

Peace,
Chuck

I really admire you. You're doing amazing work and you have my prayers and support.

Love,
Antony

[Daniel]

Chuck- there is a lot said for doing one thing at a time. For most people the 'personal' part comes first, then the 'professional'. And seeing that no one is handing out prizes at the end of the day, how you go about the matter is as individual as the person or person's involved. There aren't any rules to follow- except- perhaps one. And that is to be yourself.

As others have said: I think you are doing great.

[TigerXero]

Originally Posted by chuck2pastor

I just got done talkikng to my wife. She is still angry and hurt and told me in an accusing tone that I'm not going to do anything about it. I couldn't say anything to her because I know that I'm not going to try to move from my current appointment.

I just wanted to say that she was potentially in denial at the situation, hence her comments of disbelief in you actually doing anything.

I also have no idea how out of place this comment is (as I haven't read what currently being posted before my post), so I just wanted to apologize if I interrupt anything.