Thanks and good-bye

[BlueGirl]

Before I leave, I wanted to say “thank you” to those who welcomed me and who responded to my posts. As I said in another post, I am very lonely and isolated. Since I don’t drive and no one at my church (the only place I can get to except the stores, bank, and post office) is interested in being friends with me, I will most likely stay that way unless a miracle happens to change it. I haven't even been able to find any friends on the net.

A special thank you to you, Vanessa. I’ll miss you most of all.
Did I tell you that, June, my friend/family that I mentioned in that other long post lives in PA? I’m curious, since you miss New England, why don’t you and your family move back there? I know it’s none of my business so just ignore the question. With my curious nature, I just had to ask anyway.
Take care and don’t let the jerks get to you, the ones at the Target or any others. If you send them an email about how they acted, I hope you get an answer, an honest one, from them. I’ll probably go on wondering what their reason was just as I keep wondering what the reason was of the woman who acted like she didn’t know me.
By the way, I have long hair (you mentioned that yours is short).

When I found this group and read some of the posts, I thought I had maybe finally found a place where I would fit in and where I would have other people, gay people who feel as I do, to talk with. That’s something I desperately need, but it looks like it was just another instance of getting my hopes up only to have them shot down. After someone pointed out to someone else that this site is for people who practice “non-violence” (I thought I did too) and after I found out that calling a spade a spade or calling a person what they are, as I see it, is considered violence, then I knew that I don’t belong here either. I need to be with and talk with people who will not only say what they think and feel but who will also allow me to do the same. My sister and I have never and will never get along because of her controlling, wannabe dictator attitude. She won’t hesitate to say what she thinks and feels on any given subject but if I don’t agree with whatever it is, and I don’t most of the time, I am to just keep it to myself. She and my mother are pretty much alike about that except for the way they handle it. My mother will just shut up like a clam and not say any more at all but my sister, will blow up, hang up, or walk out. I can't have discussions with them. If I’m not free to express my feelings too, whether someone agrees with them or not, then I’m out of here.

We use words to communicate. Each word has a certain meaning. For instance, according to the Random House dictionary that I have, the word “evil”, as an adj., means: 1. morally wrong or bad 2. harmful or injurious 3. unfortunate or disastrous. When I referred to Rep. Sally Kern as evil, I was chastised for having said that. Surely, no one on here would say that she isn’t harmful or injurious, or would they? If what she says about and against gay people stirs up some other extremists enough to cause some kind of harm to some gay person, wouldn’t that be causing harm and injury? And if she helps pass anti-gay legislation or helps prevent pro-gay legislation and, because of that, some gay people get fired or mistreated in some other way, then she deliberately caused harm and injury to someone. So, used as an adjective, she is an evil person. When I say that, I am not committing an act of violence, I am simply stating a fact based on what we know she has said and done and according to the definition of evil. But if the group considers my believing and saying that to be violent, then I don’t belong in this group. There seems to be so much “hair-splitting” and being afraid of saying something that isn’t nice. I can’t live that way.
Physical violence is one thing but if calling someone a hypocrite who says one thing but practices the opposite (claims to be doing God’s will but is actually doing the opposite) is violence, then Jesus Christ was a violent person too.

Do you think this country was founded on non-violence? Have you ever really thought about that? The Revolutionary War aside, do think that all who were involved in drawing up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights always talked “nice” to each other as people here say we’re to do and if we don't we’re being violent? If certain words are considered violent, do you really think that it was only non-violence that got the Blacks their civil rights? Was it nice words that won we women the right to vote? I don’t think so. And if we gay people are ever to have the rights and equal treatment that we want and are entitled to as American citizens, it's not going to be just nice words and love that's going to do it.

As for loving Sally Kern and all others like her, yes, that is exactly what Jesus said we are supposed to do but I cannot manage to do it and I’m not going to say I do. What ever else I may be, I am not a liar or a phony, unlike the fundamentalists who claim to love the sinner but hate the “sin”. With me, what you see is what you get. I have improved in some ways over the years and I hope I continue to but I am not perfect and I never will be. If you people are as loving and forgiving of everyone, including our enemies, as you talk, then great, keep up the good work. You are much better people than I am. But I will never be that good, at least not in this life. That’s why I need Jesus as my Savior. It’s because of HIS goodness, what HE did, and my acceptance of Him as my Savior, not MY goodness, that has saved me. The fundamentalists say that Jesus saved them but they really think it’s their being good (not committing certain sins) that save them.

I’m going to post one more message in another forum concerning church, then that will probably be my last. I will miss having people to talk with (again) but my "violence" keeps me from fitting in here.

BlueGirl

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by BlueGirl

Before I leave, I wanted to say “thank you” to those who welcomed me and who responded to my posts. As I said in another post, I am very lonely and isolated. Since I don’t drive and no one at my church (the only place I can get to except the stores, bank, and post office) is interested in being friends with me, I will most likely stay that way unless a miracle happens to change it. I haven't even been able to find any friends on the net.

A special thank you to you, Vanessa. I’ll miss you most of all.
Did I tell you that, June, my friend/family that I mentioned in that other long post lives in PA? I’m curious, since you miss New England, why don’t you and your family move back there? I know it’s none of my business so just ignore the question. With my curious nature, I just had to ask anyway.
Take care and don’t let the jerks get to you, the ones at the Target or any others. If you send them an email about how they acted, I hope you get an answer, an honest one, from them. I’ll probably go on wondering what their reason was just as I keep wondering what the reason was of the woman who acted like she didn’t know me.
By the way, I have long hair (you mentioned that yours is short).

When I found this group and read some of the posts, I thought I had maybe finally found a place where I would fit in and where I would have other people, gay people who feel as I do, to talk with. That’s something I desperately need, but it looks like it was just another instance of getting my hopes up only to have them shot down. After someone pointed out to someone else that this site is for people who practice “non-violence” (I thought I did too) and after I found out that calling a spade a spade or calling a person what they are, as I see it, is considered violence, then I knew that I don’t belong here either. I need to be with and talk with people who will not only say what they think and feel but who will also allow me to do the same. My sister and I have never and will never get along because of her controlling, wannabe dictator attitude. She won’t hesitate to say what she thinks and feels on any given subject but if I don’t agree with whatever it is, and I don’t most of the time, I am to just keep it to myself. She and my mother are pretty much alike about that except for the way they handle it. My mother will just shut up like a clam and not say any more at all but my sister, will blow up, hang up, or walk out. I can't have discussions with them. If I’m not free to express my feelings too, whether someone agrees with them or not, then I’m out of here.

We use words to communicate. Each word has a certain meaning. For instance, according to the Random House dictionary that I have, the word “evil”, as an adj., means: 1. morally wrong or bad 2. harmful or injurious 3. unfortunate or disastrous. When I referred to Rep. Sally Kern as evil, I was chastised for having said that. Surely, no one on here would say that she isn’t harmful or injurious, or would they? If what she says about and against gay people stirs up some other extremists enough to cause some kind of harm to some gay person, wouldn’t that be causing harm and injury? And if she helps pass anti-gay legislation or helps prevent pro-gay legislation and, because of that, some gay people get fired or mistreated in some other way, then she deliberately caused harm and injury to someone. So, used as an adjective, she is an evil person. When I say that, I am not committing an act of violence, I am simply stating a fact based on what we know she has said and done and according to the definition of evil. But if the group considers my believing and saying that to be violent, then I don’t belong in this group. There seems to be so much “hair-splitting” and being afraid of saying something that isn’t nice. I can’t live that way.
Physical violence is one thing but if calling someone a hypocrite who says one thing but practices the opposite (claims to be doing God’s will but is actually doing the opposite) is violence, then Jesus Christ was a violent person too.

Do you think this country was founded on non-violence? Have you ever really thought about that? The Revolutionary War aside, do think that all who were involved in drawing up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights always talked “nice” to each other as people here say we’re to do and if we don't we’re being violent? If certain words are considered violent, do you really think that it was only non-violence that got the Blacks their civil rights? Was it nice words that won we women the right to vote? I don’t think so. And if we gay people are ever to have the rights and equal treatment that we want and are entitled to as American citizens, it's not going to be just nice words and love that's going to do it.

As for loving Sally Kern and all others like her, yes, that is exactly what Jesus said we are supposed to do but I cannot manage to do it and I’m not going to say I do. What ever else I may be, I am not a liar or a phony, unlike the fundamentalists who claim to love the sinner but hate the “sin”. With me, what you see is what you get. I have improved in some ways over the years and I hope I continue to but I am not perfect and I never will be. If you people are as loving and forgiving of everyone, including our enemies, as you talk, then great, keep up the good work. You are much better people than I am. But I will never be that good, at least not in this life. That’s why I need Jesus as my Savior. It’s because of HIS goodness, what HE did, and my acceptance of Him as my Savior, not MY goodness, that has saved me. The fundamentalists say that Jesus saved them but they really think it’s their being good (not committing certain sins) that save them.

I’m going to post one more message in another forum concerning church, then that will probably be my last. I will miss having people to talk with (again) but my "violence" keeps me from fitting in here.

BlueGirl

Oh hon', I really hope you don't go.

I think most of us come down more or less where you do regarding Sally Kern and that it was one individual (or a couple of individuals) who are so laser-focused on loving our enemies that we got into the "hair-splitting" (good word for it) debate. I recall my take on Sally Kern being quite similar to yours. While I did draw the line at calling her an evil person, her actions are evil, and it was my sense they were deliberate. I got roundly chastised, inappropriately. But I know the person it came from and I know why he said what he did. I care about him. Whatever, we disagree and life goes on.

This is the internet. It's public space. We cannot keep people from posting (short of breaking the forum guidelines).

You, dear Blue-Sue, are now something like the third person in recent weeks to either take a hiatus or leave this forum because someone disagreed with them.

I maintain that the way to keep this forum from being a small group all of whom agree on every little thing is for precisely those people who were turned off to stick around.

We are all here for various reasons. I first came here seeking a resource to get involved in activism. That quickly changed and I come here now to be with friends and get personal support. But there are still people around who use this forum first and foremost to share their fierce convictions about what does and does not work effectively in the arena of socio-political activism. Their opinions are strongly stated. Don't let them drive you off.

Reconsider, Sue. If there's someone you really don't like, put their name on "ignore" and you won't have to read anything they write.

[Vanessa White]

Take a breath, and hold on a moment.

First of all, I will answer your question about New England; my family and I are settled here in PA right now, and our daughter is in school, so we don't want to pull her out. We have talked about retiring anywhere from Cape Cod to Florida, so time will tell!! Your questions are welcome, and if I find them too intrusive, from you or anyone, I will let you know. K?

I am really sad to hear that this forum has not lived up to what you thought it would be. I really see it as a very welcoming place; and yes, we do disagree here, quite frequently I might add. To me, that has become how I grow and critically think a little bit more each day. There have been those of us that feel rejected, pissed off, frustrated, unheard, and I think we take a break, go away for a bit, or post in a huff and then come back refreshed. Again, I see that as growth. Two years ago, Sally Kern would have been described as "evil" by myself; I would be feeling powerless and "What's the use?" because of attitudes like hers. Today, in part because of the people that I have encountered here, I feel more able to think about what I CAN do to combat it, fight it, peacefully dialogue about it, without it destroying my sense of self. That, by no means, happened overnight. It has been a very long journey. But it is getting more fruitful every day.

Please, don't lose heart. I mean, if you really believe it is best for you to go, then follow what is right for you and go. But, the thing is, you are already isolated as you have said, and it could be good for you to be here, so that you have some connection. I have found in the past, that posting on Soulforce is much like my relationships in real life: it seems when I have a need to connect with others in a big way, there are many other things happening; it can't be my only source of support. WHen I relied on it to be that, I was disappointed at times. Everybody here has their own story of what they are called to off the internet. That being said, some of the people here have been here for me at the most trying times of my life, so far, and for that I am eternally- and I mean that- GRATEFUL.

Do what you need to, but make sure it is a truly, self-loving decision. And, if you do go, come back anytime. We will leave the light on for you.....

Thank you for your kind words, be blessed, Vanessa

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Oh hon', I really hope you don't go.

I think most of us come down more or less where you do regarding Sally Kern and that it was one individual (or a couple of individuals) who are so laser-focused on loving our enemies that we got into the "hair-splitting" (good word for it) debate. I recall my take on Sally Kern being quite similar to yours. While I did draw the line at calling her an evil person, her actions are evil, and it was my sense they were deliberate. I got roundly chastised, inappropriately. But I know the person it came from and I know why he said what he did. I care about him. Whatever, we disagree and life goes on.

This is the internet. It's public space. We cannot keep people from posting (short of breaking the forum guidelines).

You, dear Blue-Sue, are now something like the third person in recent weeks to either take a hiatus or leave this forum because someone disagreed with them.

I maintain that the way to keep this forum from being a small group all of whom agree on every little thing is for precisely those people who were turned off to stick around.

We are all here for various reasons. I first came here seeking a resource to get involved in activism. That quickly changed and I come here now to be with friends and get personal support. But there are still people around who use this forum first and foremost to share their fierce convictions about what does and does not work effectively in the arena of socio-political activism. Their opinions are strongly stated. Don't let them drive you off.

Reconsider, Sue. If there's someone you really don't like, put their name on "ignore" and you won't have to read anything they write.

As usual Zerbie you are right on target. None of us will ever find a place where absolutely everyone agrees, unless its some sort of unhealthy cult situation and even there you'd find disagreements, I'd bet.

I know of a Franciscan priest who says, "I'll be totally nonviolent about 15 minutes after my death." Nonviolence is what we strive for, but I doubt seriously if any of us ever will fully attain it. I remember making a remark about Cardinal Law being the "scum of the earth." And my friend reminded me that he might be scum of the earth, but he was still a child of God. I was grateful for his reminder. We only grow when we can acknowledge our limitations and learn from one another. A mistake, is only a mistake, if we don't learn from it.

Stay, Blue Sue and learn and teach with us, for no one is perfect except God. Our work is to be perfected, not to be perfect. It's a process and each day as we strive for nonviolence in our lives, we become stronger and hopefully more perfected. It's a verb, not an outcome.

Kara

[BlueGirl]

Thanks to all who responded and who asked me to stay, I do appreciate that, but I really don't think I belong here. If a certain group, any group, is for only a particular belief or purpose, then anyone who doesn’t believe in that particular thing wouldn’t fit in so what would be the purpose of their being there.
I wasn't saying I was going to leave because someone disagrees with me but because how I feel and react to things seems to be different from the mission and beliefs of SoulForce.
Before I read the SEVEN "SOUL FORCE" BELIEFS ABOUT MY ADVERSARY that Keltic63 posted concerning calling someone a hypocrite, and the “Pledge to Non-Violence”, I thought I believed in non-violence but evidently I don’t.

I’m an outspoken person. Maybe that’s one reason I don’t have any friends, I don’t know. But if I feel strongly about something and it’s important to me, I’m not going to keep quiet and let someone think I’m in agreement with them if I’m not, if that’s what it takes for someone to like me. And friends or no friends, I hope I never get to the point that meanness and things that are evil don’t bother me enough to say something, that I just take them in stride and not get outraged when I hear of injustices and cruelty done against decent people and animals too, outraged enough to do something about it if I can or at least speak out about it and call the people doing it exactly what they are, what ever that may be. After that business with Sally Kern, I sent a check to the Victory Fund. It wasn’t much but I felt I was at least doing something. I’d sent money to them before but I’m far from being one of the rich gays that she mentioned. I definitely believe in activism. I can’t do much but every once in a while I get a chance to do something, even if it’s only to send a small donation to ones who are working and fighting for our rights or to write a letter. I feel pride every time I watch the documentaries I have of some of the pioneers of the early gay rights movement, people such as Lilli Vincenz and Frank Kameny and lots of others. They spoke out when it was a lot more dangerous to do so than it is now.

I’ve read on here of some gay people who go to fundamentalist churches where they hear all kinds of lies and hateful, un-Christian things said about them and other gay people. I couldn’t keep going there and listening to that for anything. I wouldn’t have any respect for myself if I did. I know because I’ve been there. There’s been times I’ve kept quiet, and am very sorry now that I did, but I sure didn’t keep going back for more. Why would a person want to be with and worship with people who don’t like them and who say that God doesn’t like them either? That’s something else I keep trying to figure out. I can worship the Lord ANYWHERE. It doesn’t have to be in a certain kind of building called a church and with people who don’t like me. But I guess that’s a subject for one of the other boards.

That was an excellent letter you wrote to those women, Vanessa. I hope you get an answer to it and a decent explanation.

I’m not sure right now what I’m going to do about staying or not. I really don’t feel like I can express my true feelings if I stay and I don’t want to just argue. I have a lot of stress in having to deal with my mother and some other things so I need a really comfortable place I can go to.
If I don’t talk with you anymore, thanks again and best of luck to all of you.

BlueGirl

[preachers kid]

Hopefully you will find a another Christian website that you like better. I'm active on another Gay Christian website. I'm a lot more active on that one this this one.

[matthewspeed]

Blue Girl,
I can understand your dilemma. I'm sure you have read the threads posted by me concerning the Iraq War and what a stir became of it. I felt that my opinions were tossed aside as well. But I have to understand the passionate views that all have on many subjects. I am learning to choose my battles here at Soulforce and in life in general. My goal is to understand others view points and learn from them. I will never change my beliefs due to peer pressure, but If I learn something that challenges my current beliefs, I will be humble enough to change my mind.

I say all this, because YOU may have viewpoints that can challenge some of us on this forum. I wish you would stay. Your voice counts, my voice counts, all our voices count. Shame on anyone that would attempt to suppress your views. Some on this forum are more stubborn than others, but many want all voices heard. If you still decide to leave, I pray Gods blessings on you.

You will be missed.

-Matthew

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by BlueGirl

I thought I believed in non-violence but evidently I don’t.

I’m an outspoken person. Maybe that’s one reason I don’t have any friends, I don’t know.

Oh please.....to this reader's eyes you do know the reason- it's in black and white- and you are giving yourself a pass to say whatever comes out of your mouth with- perhaps- too little thought about the consequences. And you wonder why you have no friends?

Hello! There is something called violence of the mind and violence of the tongue and violence of the hand.

No one is perfect. No one arrives at nonviolence like some destination. One learns how to be nonviolent step by step.

I don't know you, but your words say something important: you have no friends. And guess what? You are pulling out of the interaction here, and dud.....you have no friends. Get it? You're fullfilling your own prophecy, don't ya think?

Know what I think? It's high time that you stopped taking yourself so God Damn Seriously. And I know of what I speak: I'm one of those who does that. Constantly. Boy can I do that! Wanna see who can be more serious? I bet I gottcha beat by a mile. And isn't that just plain silly?

And with all the love in my heart I want to say to you:

Lighten up girlfriend!

I mean- what are we here for? To have conversation; to love; to share. It's not a club where everyone signs a piece of paper and holds up their hand and makes some pledge and then everyone gets hazed. It isn't a club for the nicest and the wisest. It's a place where things can get messy, but, in the end, everyone pitches in and does what they can to get things on the right foot again.

A word to the wise: believing in nonviolence and being nonviolent are two distinct things. They are not the same thing. I can think of building a ship but if I don't get out hammer and nails, ain't nothing gonna happen.

So- do you have something to learn about nonviolence? Do I? I would venture that if you thought about this awhile you would answer yes to both questions.

Look. If you take yourself out of engaging with others who make you feel a tad bit uncomfortable, that tells me that you may be overly concerned with being 'right' and making yourself feel comfortable. And that's too bad. You are simply depriving everyone else of the light that is inside you. And the truth is, I think, that we only really connect - on a deep level- with others when we get out or our comfort zones, both mental and emotional.

Learning to be nonviolent- as I've experienced it- means that we have to get comfortable with being stretched and challenged on our 'stuff'. And you must know by now that we all have our 'stuff'. No one comes to the table without it.

It's how we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

[BlueGirl]

I don't know what struck a nerve with you, Daniel, but first of all, I am not your girlfriend and if you call your response to me as speaking in love, then I've had the wrong idea about what love is. Sounds to me like it's on the same order as "loving the sinner but hating the sin". Some of us know how much love is in that, don't we, and I can do without that kind of love.

Secondly, no, you don't know me and you have me figured all wrong but of course you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

Thirdly, if I prefer to choose to be where it's more comfortable instead of where it's uncomfortable, that's my right and my business.

And fourthly, maybe I'm not working towards being completely non-violent. Maybe I prefer violence sometimes over non-violence, depending on who and what. If so, as long as I don't break any laws, at least none of man's, that is also my right to choose.

BlueGirl

[BlueGirl]

To the ones who did respond in a caring manner, Thank You.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by BlueGirl

And fourthly, maybe I'm not working towards being completely non-violent. Maybe I prefer violence sometimes over non-violence, depending on who and what. If so, as long as I don't break any laws, at least none of man's, that is also my right to choose.

Struck a nerve? I don't think so. From my viewpoint you are the one iching for a fight on these forums: the angry lesbian thing (if it is that is what it is- only you know) is so so tired.

And to take your own words.....

If you wanna be violent, then this isn't the place for ya.

I tried- really I did to reach out to you in my own way- sorry it wasn't good enough for ya.

So be it. It's your life. And you will live it however you want. Just remember- this person tried to be your friend and you did it again- lost one.

Your choice.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by BlueGirl

maybe I'm not working towards being completely non-violent. Maybe I prefer violence sometimes over non-violence, depending on who and what. If so, as long as I don't break any laws, at least none of man's, that is also my right to choose.

BlueGirl

I may have a different view than many other on this forum.

I see demonizing of homophobes as a healthy step in establishing my sense of entitlement to what they want to deny me.

I am a follower of Abraham, adiscipline of thought focus and thought hygiene.

In Abraham's emotional scale, the next step from Victim status is revenge followed by rage followed by anger followed by annoyance followed by appreciation.

Revenge and rage may be the only step up from victim status that you can reach right now. I have been where you are.

So naturally I feel that you are entitled to demonize homophobes at this step in your emotional development. I think that you are right where you are supposed to be.......for now.

And when you have had your fill of vengence, rage, anger, It will be time to move on, because to stay in revange and rage will get old......and truly become hell on Earth for you......later.

But for right now I think it may be the healthiest spiritual/ emotional step for you. Get all you can from it now, because in the future I doubt you will want to go back and repeat this phase. I think you need to do this on the way to what you truly want....... love and joy.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

I may have a different view than many other on this forum.

I see demonizing of homophobes as a healthy step in establishing my sense of entitlement to what they want to deny me.

Revenge and rage may be the only step up from victim status that you can reach right now. I have been where you are.

And don't you sometimes find yourself visiting back at this "step?" I sure do.

Sometimes I read/hear/witness something so egregious from the anti-gay machine (or other insanity) that I wonder what idiocy got into me that I thought I should ever try to reach out in respect and love to something so vile. It's always a back and forth thing for me. None of us is able to live up to our own ideal all the time, even when we've identified it. Just do the best we can.

Sue, sorry Daniel's post upset you. I can see why it did. He really is a great friend to have and I am *sure* he did not mean to make you angry.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Sue, sorry Daniel's post upset you. I can see why it did. He really is a great friend to have and I am *sure* he did not mean to make you angry.

See. I can get angry too.

Sue: you're not the only person in this world with an ego.

Let me be very clear here: when you said you didn't have friends, I listened to what you had to say, and endeavored to address the matter as a friend would- that is- no bullshit. Maybe you just wanted to rant and not have the matter addressed. You tell me. And who am I to address it? Just me. You brought it up- tossed the ball over the net - and I threw it back. Didn't like the serve? Look at what you wrote.

Either you mean what you say or you don't. Which is it? Want to be friends? Then I'm right here for ya. But let's get something straight: you don't get to have it both ways: you don't get to come here, criticize the decor and then leave saying it isn't good enough for ya and then whine when you aren't 'loved'. You were loved, and have been by just about everyone posting to you. But the minute someone like myself mirrors your words back to you- oh- there is hell to pay.

Seemed to me that you arrived here begging for love and with a hell of a lot of attitude. So you're human. What else is new? Wanna play or stay in your own self-designed sandbox and hold all the toys?

Truth is: I don't see how you can have it both ways: be 'right' and be 'happy' at the same time. Ego's love to be right and fight. Happiness? Scotty is on to a very helpful perspective.

If you're going to get anything out of being here (and I hope it isn't some juice from getting off on being pissed off) you might listen to what the good doctor has to say.

There may not be a high glossy varnish on my words, but that doesn't mean I don't mean what I say or have an interest in your welfare. I do- believe it or not. If I didn't, I wouldn't have posted in the first place.