The End

[awediot]

Do you believe in THE END OF THE WORLD as we know it?

Please feel free to elaborate, while you can...

[awediot]

...or just the end of this line of thinking?

[schoolboi]

As usual for me I will begin with saying what I don't believe in:

I grew up believing in a pre-tribulation rapture, but I do not believe in a rapture now. As a matter of fact I believe that this false doctrine of escapism is one of the most troubling ideologies that the church faces today. This theory about a god who will whisk us into the air at any moment so we don't have to care for creation, fright for equality and social justice, or continue to any scientific endeavor frightens me. I truly believe that it is anti-gospel and the true spirit of anti-christ

I have heard to people say "I just want to be ready when the end comes." I truly believe that this statement is one of the scariest ideas that this false escapist "rapture" theology creates. This ideology creates a very self-centered individualized Christianity.

Even if one day Jesus was going to "beam us up" like Scottie on Star Trek, our greatest concern should not be are we ready for the ride. Our biggest concerns need to be, are the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the sick cared for, justice fought for, creation protected, and are the poor having the good news preached to them.

I say to you, "Why stand ye gazing up into heaven?" It is time to stop looking to the skies for Jesus, and for us to BE the appearance of Christ to those in need. Truly this is our commission and our "blessed hope".

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by schoolboi

I grew up believing in a pre-tribulation rapture, but I do not believe in a rapture now. As a matter of fact I believe that this false doctrine of escapism is one of the most troubling ideologies that the church faces today.

It is time to stop looking to the skies for Jesus, and for us to BE the appearance of Christ to those in need. Truly this is our commission and our "blessed hope".

Hear Hear! Could not agree more. What troubles me about Rapture theology is that it is often used to avoid the sticker issues that face us. More than once, a family member has bailed out of a conversation by stating that all will be revealed when the Jesus comes back. It's used as the great cosmic cop-out. Christianity's version of the negative aspect of Buddhism's Karma which can be reduced to 'why bother about anything- I'm coming back!" It's what we do here that counts. Right in the here and now.

End of the World? How about End of Life? If you knew that your ticket was being punched tomorrow, what would you do? That would be the end of your world.

[Emproph]

Now that I found the lyrics I realize it's more of a personal perspective rather than the way I’ve been interpreting it. (But I say screw it! I'm going to continue to be more inspired than I was meant to be. )

{All the riches in this world
Couldn't fill this great big hole (I surrender)
It takes something so much more (I surrender)
Only you can take me
You can make me whole}

But it’s these last few lines and intensity of that part of the song just pack that emotional punch and nail the meaning of the message of “The End” by reframing it as “The Beginning.”

Its not the end this is the beginning
Its not the end...its not the end...
Its not the end this is the beginning

http://www.krystalmeyers.com/km2.html
(^The song should start right up and play through)

(PS -I've got lots more on this train of thought.. )

[Dan]

I saw a bumper sticker recently that said, "Pray for the Rapture...so the rest of us can live in peace."
It would be nice to get rid of judgmental-ness, arrogance, and spiritual violence; it is probably wishful thinking, because we all have our areas of prejudice or blindness. What helps me to stay humble in the presence of intolerant Chrisitianity are the Soulforce principles outlined in response to James Dobson's assault. It is also important to remember we are all wired to deal with our fears, and our fears often drive our behavior (including theological behavior). Most people are trying to do the best they can in a challenging life.
I try to think, "What are the issues this person is dealing with?" when confronted by the high-minded spiritual arrogance.
I don't really believe in the Rapture as it is usually portrayed nowadays (I see The Revelation of John as a coded letter of encouragement to a Christian community under oppression from the Roman Empire in the late 1st century, not a long term apocalyptic prediction - see book by Barbara Rossing).

Yet..it is a funny image to think about people who thought they were so right to be surprised at the end.

Dan

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Dan

I saw a bumper sticker recently that said, "Pray for the Rapture...so the rest of us can live in peace."...

That's hilarious!^ Right on.

Originally Posted by Dan

Yet..it is a funny image to think about people who thought they were so right to be surprised at the end. Dan

That post nailed it. I could probably take a drill to it, but it was so non-offensive it could have passed for conservative Christian, the exact type of key "behavior" we need to get "through" to them.

OK, every LGBT person on the planet is now required to take acting classes to accomplish this purpose. We're not only in the position of saving them, we have the obligation to do so.

They are not our nemesis, figuring out how not to consider them our nemesis is our nemesis.

[awediot]

When I was a kid, and believed everything they told me, I wondered how in the world all these 'signs' could take place, while being spelled out so clearly, only to result in denial and people running to the hills, covering their heads. The prophecies describing what was thought to mean crazy weather, spreading wars, starvation and disease, a falling away from God back into a false, globalist religion of self-deification, the explosion of hedonism and materialism, the cashless society uniting under One government, one military and one occult spirituality that would worship the man who ruled it, the actual required marking of every person on the planet, leaving those who refused it to starve and die homeless, and even after the saved were magically twinkled away, those remaining would still choose to disbelieve and explain the rapture away as something else, the culmination of all these things, spelled out thousands of years ago, would still fail to move people closer to God. And to top it off, these prophecies flat out described their own dismissal and demise, essentially claiming Christianity predicts its own climactic destruction. To have all this occur, swirling around the book that explained why all of it was happening, was beyond my comprehension.

It is not so anymore. I went through a long enough time in my life to write off such dire warnings as fear mongering, mass opiating political bunk. They referred to an earlier time, or a period millions of years off, they were misunderstood and had too much read into them, were more symbolic, deeper and abstract and thus meaningless or -ful than we could fathom. They also were coming true befor my eyes. The computer paved the way for even the most ridiculous mark of the beast, to become possible. The anti-Christian mindset that might not only miss the fatal, voluntary tagging, but invite it for our own good, in open eyed, we too are One defiance, is right on time. The reinterpretations are concise and brilliant, just as I had been told they would be. As we all have been told.

I do not know how all of this will play out. I just remember as a child, even a skeptical one, setting in my own head to watch out for certain things, the same things increasing all around me today. Things that have never before happened. I believe that the negative, the alternative to God, flip side of the coin, yan, darkness, evil etc. have always been intended to be a temporary, necessary state of being. Having served its purpose, it will be removed, and we will be able to be restored. I believe this not because I was told it, but because I rejected it, and it continued to haunt me, to prove itself to me and in spite of me. The mere belief is beginning to be blamed for making it occur, as if it were self-fulfilling. Soon, it will all be Christians fault for keeping the negativity alive on the planet, that their belief in being fallen from God, stops the collective from achieving godhood. With the likes of the war bent George Bush bombing away in the name of Christ, I can almost believe as well. But it is more likely a hint of the power of the coming world leader. We are nearly desperate enough to allow Him his seat...

[Dan]

Awediot,
It sounds like this apocalyptic worldview has had a painful impact on you. It's ironic that this type of interpretation of Revelation and Daniel is only 100-200 years old. Since the 1960's and the appearance of Hal Lindsey books everyone seems to believe it to be the historical interpretation of the Church. I have come to learn that the type of writing in Revelation was common in it's era, and it was probably written to give heart to the Jews especially the followers of Jesus - who were harassed by the Roman Empire. As I read Revelation now I get a hint of God's desire to save ALL people. There is a well-regarded book by Lutheran theologian Barbara Rossing that you might like to read.

All this reminds me how much damage religion can do. We need to keep centered in love and compassion or we will go off the deep end over and over again.

Dan]

[awediot]

Hmmmm, perhaps Dan... But i have never felt any pain from viewing the world this way. Watching the efforts of mankind repeatedly dig themselves in deeper, seeing side effects of promising discoveries backfire to only make matters worse and the cycle of history and devastating rationale of war which we never learn from, all without any explanation why, would for me be much more painful and frightening. I can't help but see the dawning faith man has in himself to finally unite the world in a colorblind, enlightened embrace for the long awaited harmony as a crock, when even in this country we only put up with Mexicans in order to build our houses, clean them up, stock them with produce and watch our kids. i see no evidence of a more loving mankind on the horizon, just a tense enduring and resented tolerance of each other so we don't blow the whole thing to hell. Past lives are forgotten and mistakes have taught us nothing.

Cynical? To steal a line from Lilly Tomlin's great "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life", my cynicism can't keep up.

I no longer need what I can read for myself to be interpreted for me. I'm quite capable of pulling Truth from between the lines and abandoning eras of pop interpretation. That days are numbered is not being read into the bible, it is a running central theme being hyper-enlightened out.

As for The desire of God to see us ALL saved, I have never in my life seen the idea more questioned and nit-picked apart than on this forum. I have yet to have the slightest doubt in my mind. Whether or not we allow Him to save us, is the only question. The silence it invokes and vacuum of response has been deafening, and right here, right now, will be again... Watch.

I will keep love and compassion in my heart and life, but center on reality. They are core elements to it. They are not the thing itself.
I strive to help and encourage and love the people I come into contact with. As individual creatures we are delightful, intense, potent and fragile. As a species, we bite.... I love the deep end and went off of it too long ago to even want to get back.

"...and I said, pain cry? then language, is a virus." Laurie Anderson

(dug the song btw, Emproph)