Hi, My name is Crystal

[found49]

Just looking around...hope all is well with everyone.

[scott snedeker]

welcome to the forum! Feel free to jump right in!

[BruceChris]

I'm sure that other members will be signing on soon, please tell us more about yourself when you get the chance.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Vanessa White]

Enjoy your time here. It is a joy and always interesting!!!

[Daniel]

Welcome.

From your profile and recent posts, would it be safe to assume that your are a fundamentalist?

Another question: how do you feel about gay folks?

Last question: what do you hope to learn during your time here?

[found49]

The way you say it, I'm inclined to feel that "fundamentalist" carries certain connotations that I do not wish to associate myself with.

I support gay rights/people. Such rights are guaranteed under our Constitution.

Learn? I guess anything that I didn't know before.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by found49

The way you say it, I'm inclined to feel that "fundamentalist" carries certain connotations that I do not wish to associate myself with.

I support gay rights/people. Such rights are guaranteed under our Constitution.

Learn? I guess anything that I didn't know before.

Perhaps I should have asked:

Are you a literalist? Do you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God?

Glad to hear that you support Gay Rights. However, I would not concur that gay people have the same rights as straight folks under the Constitution. In theory, perhaps. But not in practice. Case in point: gay folks do not have the 1500-some rights accorded to straight married folk. Yes- there is gay marriage is MA, but these 'rights' are state rights, not federal rights.

We may live under the same Constitution, but we are not treated the same. As a gay person, I can be fired from my job in a majority of states for the simple face of being gay. And the list goes on and on.

Assuming you believe in God, do you believe that God condemns gay people, that they should become straight to please him? Or are they Ok just the way they are?

[found49]

Woah, Dude,

slow down.

In response to the first question, obviously, the Constitution has been twisted and mangled so that it supports and/or doesn't support the things it should. But, in theory, yes, such rights are guaranteed under the Constitution and the principles it was founded upon, as articulated in the Declaration of independence.

In response to the second question: I really think that's a question for God. Like some of Timothy's passages on women, some believers who are otherwise literalists have chosen to contextualize Paul's NT statements on homosexuality, and others take such statements literally as well. From my interactions with Christians of different backgrounds, I have found that people I think you might consider "fundamentalists" tend to be more open-minded to gay rights in the civil sphere than you might anticipate. As for gay people vs. straight people's orientation being pleasing to God, I'm going to go with the fact that I haven't "literally" seen or talked to God lately, so I guess we'll both find out.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Glad to hear that you support Gay Rights. However, I would not concur that gay people have the same rights as straight folks under the Constitution. In theory, perhaps. But not in practice. Case in point: gay folks do not have the 1500-some rights accorded to straight married folk. Yes- there is gay marriage is MA, but these 'rights' are state rights, not federal rights.

We may live under the same Constitution, but we are not treated the same. As a gay person, I can be fired from my job in a majority of states for the simple face of being gay. And the list goes on and on.

Originally Posted by found49

Woah, Dude,

slow down.

In response to the first question, obviously, the Constitution has been twisted and mangled so that it supports and/or doesn't support the things it should. But, in theory, yes, such rights are guaranteed under the Constitution and the principles it was founded upon, as articulated in the Declaration of independence.
Yes.
In theory those rights are guaranteed - in actual fact, those rights are selectively denied people who are, or are perceived to be, gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual.

Since Daniel brought several examples up for conversation, were you already aware of them?

I was shocked when I first learned that people could be, and in fact were being, fired from jobs because a boss found out that they were gay and did not like that fact. I really could not believe this was considered acceptable. Still can't. Sometimes it even happens to people who hide their orientation (remain "closeted") on the job, if they are spotted by a gossipy co-worker at a gay community event, business, bar, etc.
In a case like that, the person has played by society's rules of "not forcing it down my throat" by remaining closeted at work, but still gets deprived of a career opportunity and/or means of livelihood! It's amazingly arbitrary and cruel. And it is only one of many examples of injustice that society expects gay people to just put up with because other people might not like them. Imagine being treated that way.




I have found that people I think you might consider "fundamentalists" tend to be more open-minded to gay rights in the civil sphere than you might anticipate..

I hope so! It seems perfectly feasible for me that someone might have a personal belief that being of a non-straight orientation is 'wrong,' yet still separate out that personal belief, or feeling of dislike if there is one, from civil affairs. I am quite honestly surprised that so many people in the world do not!

I hope that those who believe gay = 'sin' will nevertheless agree that everyone is entitled to equal protection of the laws. If MY relationship gets recognized, so should yours. If I am protected from wrongful termination on the job, you should be too. And so on, and so on, and so on.

So Crystal, I'm curious: what brings you to this forum?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by found49

Woah, Dude,


Please read this carefully. I don't consider myself a 'dude', and ask you not to refer to me in this manner (or shorten my name as I indicated on another thread). I'm a 49 year old gay man, not some college chum, ok? We aren't exactly on friendly terms yet. When, and if, we are, that will be the time to take liberties.

slow down.

Slow down?

Crystal- your introduction hardly tells one who your are, much less why you are here. So- I am very curious about your motivation for being here. And your answer to my questions have been somewhat evasive.

In response to the first question, obviously, the Constitution has been twisted and mangled so that it supports and/or doesn't support the things it should. But, in theory, yes, such rights are guaranteed under the Constitution and the principles it was founded upon, as articulated in the Declaration of independence.

In response to the second question: I really think that's a question for God. Like some of Timothy's passages on women, some believers who are otherwise literalists have chosen to contextualize Paul's NT statements on homosexuality, and others take such statements literally as well. From my interactions with Christians of different backgrounds, I have found that people I think you might consider "fundamentalists" tend to be more open-minded to gay rights in the civil sphere than you might anticipate. As for gay people vs. straight people's orientation being pleasing to God, I'm going to go with the fact that I haven't "literally" seen or talked to God lately, so I guess we'll both find out.

A question for God? We'll find out?

This strikes me as something of a cop-out. From my point of view, you haven't answered my questions in a forthright manner. Perhaps you aren't prepared to do so. Perhaps you are here because you are trying to figure things out. Perhaps you are afraid your son or daugher (or husband) might be gay. For all I know, you might be questioning your own sexuality. That is for you to say. Whatever brings you here, I hope you find some answers to- what seems to me at this point- to be some unasked questions on your part.

If you are here to figure out how you feel about gay folks, this is the place to be. It's also the place to figure out quesitons about one's own sexuality.

Now. I wish I could agree with you about fundamentalist's being more open-minded about gay rights. Historical evidence suggests otherwise. Remember the Defense of Marriage Act? The push to change the Constitution? These are matters that were initiated by fundamentalists. The majority of states have laws which bar gay folks from having marriage rights. Civil Unions? They aren't the same thing for the simple reason that "Separate is Not Equal". Now- if you- and those in your circle do not have a problem with gay people having full and equal rights- that's great!

However: and for the record: you didn't answer my question. So again: do you consider the bible to be the literal Word of God?

Why do I want to know this?

Simple. I want to know the basis of your thinking and thought process. Don't want to answer the question? That's Ok. But at least be honest about about the matter. Having an opinion actually matters in this world. It is the basis on which we make decisions and how we vote. It's real stuff.

If you do believe that the bible is the literal word of God, and, as you say, support Gay Rights, how do you deal with the passages that fundies love to pummel gay folks with?

[found49]

Yes, I believe that the Bible is the literal word of God.

Now, having chosen to believe that, I can't say that I know everything about everyone, especially in regard to where someone is going to end up in eternity.

You say that you want to know my answer to your questions and that you don't want me to answer, "we'll find out." But, that really is my position on this matter. I don't know-it's like the debate over whether it took God six literal days or six ages to create the earth-I wasn't there, so while I'm inclined to accept the idea that it took six literal days, I don't freak out when someone else says that it took six ages. Maybe it did. In any sense, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about those things.

The issue of whether or not being gay is "acceptable" under the Christian belief system is tricky because of the conflict between a literal reading of the Bible and the broader application of its literal statements on love, compassion, etc. Yes, the Bible contains statements indicating that homosexuality is not part of God's intended design. But, the Bible also says that we are responsible for loving each other as ourselves. Given such statements, I believe that the Bible literally mandates that we treat others with the same kind of respect we would want-and that, to me, means equal protection under the law.

Pummeling gay folks just makes Christians look like mean folks. But, I do think that particualrly with the younger generation of people ages 18 to 35, things are changing in that area among evangelical Christians.

In my case, my kids are very young, and I have chosen to home school them because of an inordinant amount of peer teasing I experienced at school and concerns over the quality of education they will recieve in the public school system, as I think that they may both have attention deficit disorder. In terms of world issues, I try to expose them to different points of view. For instance, I have talked to them about the fact that some of the kids they interact with at play group have gay parents, although I haven't gone into what "gay" means. When they've asked, "Why does so and so have two mommies?" I've said, "Because their mommies are married like Mommy and Daddy." Technically, it's not marriage, but I think that's the best way for a 5 and 7 year old to understand it.

[tdogg]

Hi Crystal and welcome to the forums.

So, like Daniel asked, what brings you to the forums here?

There are many threads discussing fundamentalist beliefs and GLBT people and issues, including equality (not 'gay rights' as some like to call it). However, very few visitors take the time to read through them. It would be a good start, but the depends on why you are here and what you expect from your time here.

I think the question of whether or not God approves of GLBT and same sex relationship CAN be answered here and now. God has shown me personally that I am loved and accepted by God and my relationship is blessed.

I'm reluctant to share any more, until you share why you are here and what your expectations are. But, either way, glad you found your way here. Even if your motive isn't to learn anything, I have no doubt you will.

Welcome!

T-dogg

[Zerbie]

[QUOTE=found49;50032]

Given such statements, I believe that the Bible literally mandates that we treat others with the same kind of respect we would want-and that, to me, means equal protection under the law.

[QUOTE]



Can we enlist your help by speaking up on this point when issues of equality come up in your community?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by found49

Yes, I believe that the Bible is the literal word of God.

I went to an Assembly of God school before I came out, so I know the 'drill' about being a literalist. However, comng to terms with my sexuality made me question many things.

Originally Posted by found49

The issue of whether or not being gay is "acceptable" under the Christian belief system is tricky because of the conflict between a literal reading of the Bible and the broader application of its literal statements on love, compassion, etc. Yes, the Bible contains statements indicating that homosexuality is not part of God's intended design. But, the Bible also says that we are responsible for loving each other as ourselves. Given such statements, I believe that the Bible literally mandates that we treat others with the same kind of respect we would want-and that, to me, means equal protection under the law.

You raise an interesting point, and I agree with you about the biblical admonitions about 'loving each other as ourselves'. But to go back a second: it should be noted that the term 'homosexual' was not invented until the late 1880's, and your use of the term- and the conclusions you draw about various unnamed biblical verses- is a generalization which is not supported by indepth investigation (biblical scholarship) or an objective understanding of the natural sciences. The fact is that homosexuality is expressed in nature in a great many species, not just homo sapiens.

One might even venture that God Intended That.

Originally Posted by found49

Pummeling gay folks just makes Christians look like mean folks. But, I do think that particualrly with the younger generation of people ages 18 to 35, things are changing in that area among evangelical Christians.

You are right about that. And younger people are displaying something more than tolerance. One might even call it acceptance.

Originally Posted by found49

In my case, my kids are very young, and I have chosen to home school them because of an inordinant amount of peer teasing I experienced at school and concerns over the quality of education they will recieve in the public school system, as I think that they may both have attention deficit disorder. In terms of world issues, I try to expose them to different points of view. For instance, I have talked to them about the fact that some of the kids they interact with at play group have gay parents, although I haven't gone into what "gay" means. When they've asked, "Why does so and so have two mommies?" I've said, "Because their mommies are married like Mommy and Daddy." Technically, it's not marriage, but I think that's the best way for a 5 and 7 year old to understand it.

I'm sorry you had such a hard time at school. I didn't enjoy my time in public school either- and have a sister-in-law who homeschooled her children.

You know what? Kids are smart: they get the gist of things even if they aren't old enough to understand the legality of the matter. And isn't that what it's all about? Caring for one another?

Making it legal just makes it a lot easier to do.

[Jennifer5]

Welcome

[antiochian]

Nice to meet you Crystal!