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#41
11-13-2007, 10:27 AM
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Why do I go?
A bit of history, Zerb.
I was raised Catholic, although we were not strictly attending Catholics, mainly on the high holy days, and always Midnight mass on Christmas Eve. I am with dsdrane, although having the incense all the time would be too much, on Christmas eve it added to the connection for me. I enjoyed going then, as a kid and teen, because when I was in those beautiful buildings known as churches, with the music, smells, sounds, prayers said as a group, I felt so close to God that I was usually in tears. THe homily/sermon never connected with me as much as just BEING there. In community, feeling basked in God's love. Fast forward to adulthood. I walked away from the Catholic church twenty or more years ago, because of the seemingly unloving attitude toward myself and others in the gay and lesbian community. I felt ignored as well as unloved and unappreciated. This did not seem to be such a big deal, because I did always connect with God outside of the church setting, but became a big deal after we had our daughter. My partner had also been raised Catholic, though not strict practicing like myself. I wanted a church that would embrace us as a family. She wanted to be invisible within the Catholic church. At least at first. Then, we did some church shopping, and found our small, local Methodist church and congregation, and wonderful pastor. Long story short? Now, we go for our daughter, who knows the stories, the importance, the love of Jesus. We go for the sense of small, intimate community, where we seem to be genuinely embraced. We go for the intensity of prayer. And, I still love the building, it is small and old and quaint. Now though, I read along in the stories, the sermons speak to me, and the music we all sing joyfully. I go for all of it. We all do in my family. However, I try not to think about the doings of the Methodist church outside of our safe haven on most days, so that, at least for a bit longer, we can feel like we really belong there. 
__________________
[B]THE TRUTH IS ALL THERE IS.[/B 
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#42
11-13-2007, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Actually, I've worked with people at several of these churches on advocacy projects. Several pastors made comments to me in September along the lines of they would like having someone like me in their congregation - - which was really very sweet of them. I started this thread after spending a couple hours looking at their websites, in fact, because I wanted to get a sense of what other people go to churches looking for.
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#43
11-13-2007, 02:37 PM
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Hard question
I come late to this discussion. I wanted to hear what others had to say, and I really had to think about how I would answer Zerbie's question.
Church is very important to me. It always has been, even during the couple of years when I absented myself from active participation in a church. I always knew I would return to some faith community. I just didn't know which one. The preacher this last Sunday asked: "What would you mourn the most if some day you came to the corner of Iriving and Pleasant streets and All Saints was gone, replaced by a Wal-Mart?" That drew a groan from the congregation, let me tell you. The answer for me is difficult. First, I would miss the people ... but they could reassemble and rebuild elsewhere, I suppose. I would miss the music ... but ditto that. Same for the liturgy, which could be replicated elsewhere. No, what I would miss the most is the church itself. Not that there's anything magical about this particular pile of brick and mortar. But somehow the lives and hopes and prayers of generations of All Sainters have made this place special. The Celtic tradition talks about "thin places," places where the veil between the human and the divine is extremely thin, where we mortals can somehow feel God's presence. For the ancients that included certain mountains and lakes, islands and groves of trees. Lindisfarne and Iona come to mind. They were considered holy long before Christianity arrived in the British Isles. For me, All Saints has become one of those places. I think it's the sum total of the experience there and not just one part of it. It's where I have experienced grace and acceptance and have learned that God loves me as I am, not as others tell me I should be. Oh, I skip church occasionally, but it only serves to remind me how much I miss it when I do. And I crank and complain about this one or that one, about a hymn I don't like or a sermon I would rather not have heard. But always I want to return. There's a pull I can't explain rationally.
__________________
BenL --------------- When you can transform the war and violence in yourself, then you can truly begin to help others find peace. Thich Nhat Hanh Last edited by BenL; 11-14-2007 at 09:54 AM. Reason: fix misspellings
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#44
11-13-2007, 03:12 PM
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Beautifully said, Ben. Thanks. It rings very true with me.
__________________
[B]THE TRUTH IS ALL THERE IS.[/B
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#45
11-13-2007, 06:58 PM
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Thin Places
Quote:
Barring a trip to Iona (which I would love to do) or some other mountain-top experience, I do feel that "thin place" in church at times. I get shivers regularly -- shivers that could be so easily explained away by this theory or that...but, honestly, I really could care less. I know.
__________________
DraneSpout.com
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#46
11-14-2007, 06:34 AM
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I go to church for the feeling of "embrace". We are embraced by God, just as we embrace God. We are embraced by each other, just as we embrace each other. The measure of whether or not a church is viable for me is whether or not I feel that I can be embraced for who I am, and whether I am welcome to embrace others for who they are. When someone has been damaged, hurt or ostracized by religion, the difficulty can be trusting enough to be willing to throw our arms wide open in a gesture of invitation. It is only a valid place to worship if the arms are also thrown wide open for you.
__________________
www.revandylittle.com - Andy's blog Sins are always worse when they're different than mine
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#47
11-14-2007, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
__________________
http://wunsicdude.blogspot.com/
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#48
06-05-2008, 05:09 PM
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Can we revive this thread?
Is it valid to go just to see if you can meet nice people who might have similar values?
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#49
06-06-2008, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
If each church was limited to just those people who actually believed exactly the same things, there'd be a lot more of them and there wouldn't be many people in any. There isn't a bad reason to go into a church - unless it's to do harm. A church is not a place or time - that may be when and where the church meets, but a church is the people who attend. And they're all different and are there for different reasons. Collectively, they will have a style - for worship, for gathering, for socializing. If the style is comfortable to you, go for it. As far as what is said or sung, pick out the parts that feed you. You may have to overlook some parts that don't. Until you are comfortable otherwise, should that ever occur, consider yourself a friend of the church as opposed to having to become a member of it. Oops, sorry! It was a short question. My answer - yes, it's perfectly acceptable.
__________________
www.revandylittle.com - Andy's blog Sins are always worse when they're different than mine
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#50
06-06-2008, 08:28 AM
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I can tell you why
And why not I have attended church in the past. Am I attending now? Not much.
Why? I wouldn't call it burnout- that would be too simple an answer. However, I spent my adolescence in church- an Assemblies of God church to be exact. Even went to one of their schools. Lots of chapel. Lots of church. Where did I fit in? In the choir. After leaving the Assemblies (didn't leave as much as I knew I could ever fit it as an openly gay person), I found myself in NYC for my job with an opera company and started singing professionally to make ends meet, mostly in Episcopalian parishes. What a wonderful difference that was. Here were churches where there were lots and lots of gay people. And the strain of conservatism that I had encountered previously was not to be found for the most part, even though, when I asked the Rector at the parish I had served in longest to bless the union between my husband and I, he refused. Coward! Didn't want to stick his head out- and he was 'out'. After 15 years of this, I decided I had had enough. Enough singing for others. Enough sitting up front and making beautiful music- as much as I love doing so. Enough choir rehearsals at 9 AM, when my voice hardly wanted to work and singing above the staff was more work than pleasure. Enough dragging myself out of bed after having been up late the nght before singing some gigantic opera like Turandot or Carmen. Singers here in New York do this all the time. They 'work' all weekend. 'Going' to church is their bread and butter. This takes a toll. At least it has for me. And I love music making, especially the fine music of the Anglican church. There is nothing else like it. And if anything touches me more, it is the music, more than the preaching, which, if it does, is top-notch and from the heart and mind both. When do I go now? When I join my husband at his parish, where he plays the organ, at St. James in the Bronx. I am getting used to sitting in the pew rather than the choir stall. And that is a very different experience. Am I paying the price for being paid all those years? Perhaps. But I was happy doing so when I was doing so. Sang some great music (and you never know, I could still get back in the saddle), and felt the touch of community and the divine in the liturgy and pomp and circumstance, the echo of the Real as it has come down to us time via Tradition and Ritual observance. It's the small things that have meant the most to me; kneeling before entering the pew, bowing as one crossed the nave etc- outward signs of inward contemplation and respect; holding the chalice gently at communion; chanting the psalm; processing as the first hymn was sung, and then leaving in the same manner with a sense of grandeur and largeness, of acceptance and wide open generosity, of Love which delights in each moment and person. These things are felt, not discussed, not debated and picked over. They simply are.
__________________
Be the love you seek.
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#51
06-06-2008, 09:25 AM
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I go to church for one reason.
To have an intimate encounter with Jesus Christ. I am a Catholic christian. My ultimate desire in church is the sacrament of Holy Communion. To me, it is the most intimate connection to God. When I partake of the body and blood of Christ, I am partaking in his death and ressurection. His blood was shed for my sins. I feel I don't deserve it, but He freely died for me and because if Him, I am now worthy. This is MY belief and I embrace it and it brings me such joy. I realize not all that proclaim themselves as Christians on this site believe the exact way that I believe, but this is the truth in my heart. I continue to respect all for their beliefs. I also know we have peagans, buddhists, athiests, etc... that are members on this site and I love all of them and accept all and respect all. I believe we all want the same thing- to be loved, to love, to respect, to be respected. We are all different, but we are all brothers and sisters!! -Matthew 
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#52
06-06-2008, 10:06 AM
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i go to church because i believe in connecting with God within the context of a community. For me Christianity is about relationships. Relationship with God, Christ, each other.
My parish is a very ministry oriented one, where the 'priesthood of all' is taken to heart. There are alot of ministry opportunities for serving others. That's important to me. Also, i'm a total high church liturgical nerd.  i really appreciate Anglo-catholic pomp - so long as it doesn't impede 'loving your neighbor as yourself". Pax,  scott And ditto to what Matthew wrote above. The sacrament of the Eucharist is very important to me as well. My experience is one of a tangible connection to God and others through the receipt & sharing of the wine & bread.
__________________
The demand for equal rights in every vocation of life is just and fair; but, after all, the most vital right is the right to love and be loved. Emma Goldman (1869-1940) Last edited by nmwolfboy; 06-06-2008 at 10:09 AM. Reason: added a postscript
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#53
06-07-2008, 06:06 AM
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Why I became a catholic christian
Quote:
To give some background on this statement. I've been in church literally all my life. My parents raised me in church. My extended family went to the same church, Assembly of God. We went because it was simply what was expected on Sunday twice and Wednesday night. You went to church unless sick. The habit of church had been engrained in me deeply. However when I cam out as bi' that caused a crises of faith. The A of G church says you're going to he**, no exceptions. I had to figure out for myself what church meant to me. For me it means receiving the real presence of Christ in the communion bread and cup. Did I feel a connection to God in my other church experiences. Yes I did. However I never felt the same peace that I feel in the catholic church. To sum up...I go for the deep sense of peace and connection to Christ and other christians.
__________________
"Beloved let us tolerate one another. For tolerance is of God and everyone that tolerates is born of God and knows God. He that tolerates not, knows not God for God is tolerance." 1 John 4:7,8
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#54
06-07-2008, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
I find it amazing how God reaches all his children in different ways. When your heart is truely seeking God, He will meet you there, where ever you may be. Some find that intimacy at home in their own prayer closet, some at church, some while singing hymns and songs of praise, where ever! I used to think I had to spend a couple of hours in prayer every day to find the presense of God. If I didn't pray for a certain amount of time, I would miss out on Gods holiness! I would feel guilty if I missed a day of prayer. But now, I prefer to be in the presense of Holy Communion. It is not my own prayer life that connects me deeply with God, it is Communion. Some find that connection by praying the Rosary, some love to jump up and down at a revival type church. But the main thing is, is that you are seeking the Creator and finding that deep connection. No one can tell you how to seek. God created us as individuals, and we all have our own individual relationship. That is the beauty of our God. He does not mold us into one prototype. We all are unique in our own way, and we all can have our own unique relationship with the living God.
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#55
06-07-2008, 10:36 AM
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The Temple of the Body and the Church
Matthew- I could not agree with you more. We each have our own way of connecting to the Divine, whatever words we use to discribe that experience and the situation involved. Makes me think that we all have that spark within us and that it is set aflame in a particular way that touches us deeply- if only we spend the timer and energy to look for it- to nurture it.
I've been practicing yoga for a few months (I could say religeously- but that would only make me laugh!  ) and have found this to be a very healing and- yes- even a sacred process. Heck, I've been meditating for many years, but moving the body as one does in yoga (and yoga is- interestingly enough- designed to ready the body for meditation or contemplation- that is sitting still!) has reached down into me- and touched me- in ways that music has in the past. You know when you hear a piece of music and it bring you to tears? I am having that same experience, but while practicing holding asanas (various poses). The thing is, is that it feels like prayer to me. My eyes are open and I am moving in prayer. That's the best way I can describe it. I went to church all my life to have an experience in the context of music, which brought me to the same experience that I am having now in the practice of yoga. I find that very interesting. Makes me ruminate on this: There is the temple of the body and the outer temple called the church. Both have limbs. We each our own, and the outer church, its members: limbs, hands, eyes and words that express the love within each of us. Sounds like communion to me. I think it important that we gather together- for I believe that the scripture that talks about 'where two or more are gathered' is a truth.
__________________
Be the love you seek.
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#56
06-07-2008, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Daniel You explained it perfectly. We are a temple with the church being the outer temple. I am more and more convicted of what I am putting in this temple of mine. I admit to smoking!  I am attempting to quit. Each day that passes, I feel more convicted concerning this smoking nonsense! (if Pablo reads this, he will have some words for me. I told him that I already quit! OOPs!) I have already made an effort to eat more organically and will soon be getting back to the gym! But I have always been interested in Yoga as well. I keep hearing testimonials from various people concerning the health and spiritual benefits of Yoga. As a christian, I have no problem using Yoga as a spiritual connection. The bible uses the word meditation repeatedly. Prayer is meditation. The thought of being in a meditative state and allowing Gods peace to enter, sounds very inviting. I would like to learn more about Yoga.
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#57
06-07-2008, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Yoga is a complete system for deepening one's religious practice via physical and mental health. It is universal. Many people have the misconception that yoga is a religion in itself, which sadly keeps some away from discovering it's incredible gifts. Whatever your religion is, practicing yoga is a means of enriching your understanding and practice of it. There are many avenues for exploration of yoga from the very physically strenuous to the intellectual. I recommend some combination of both, maybe a sampling of a few of the different "styles" of yoga exercise that are out there, plus a little bit of reading according to your interest. I'm happy to recommend a few books or some styles of yoga exercise that you might enjoy if you tell us a little about your tastes and interests. Or you could PM me (or Daniel.)
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#58
06-30-2008, 08:15 PM
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I posted this but can't find it, so I'm posting again...hope I'm not redundant.
I stopped going to church last year. My spiritual journey has been a process. I started out Catholic but after actually reading and studying the Bible, Jewish Tanakh, the Qu'ran, and the Hindu Vedas, I could no longer be Catholic. I've been to several churches in my life time including, my husband's orthodox church and various protestant churches. A few years ago I joined a UU church and was amazed at how many atheists showed up every Sunday. I began to see that religion has hijacked spirituality. I see God in those atheists because of who they are and how they live their lives. Then a friend who has been a Buddhist for 20 years recently began to study for the Pagan ministry. Being raised Catholic, I was taught that Pagans were the closest thing to the devil. My friend began teaching a Pagan study course and I signed up. From this study group I learned one very important lesson. It was a chapter on "magical tools and how to use them". While that, in itself, did not impress me, one sentence became an epiphany for me. "You know the tools are just props, all the magic is in your head" It suddenly dawned on me, THAT is what religion is...a prop. and some people need more, some less, some need stricter props and some don't need any props at all. The "magic" or "spirituality" comes from within us, not from a faraway place in the heavens. I don't mean to disparage anyone's religion. I respect all religions. People in all religions experience what I call the "Holy Spirit", the presence of the Divine, faith healing, and other emotional experiences with God, as I do. Now either all the Gods up there are doing their own thing or it is the same thing and we just use different props to explain what we are feeling. My spiritual journey is ongoing, but once I could release what I feel is "religious untruths", I now have more time to search for "what is true". And even more importantly, I'm okay with not ever finding that truth in this lifetime because it will be revealed through death which is the next phase of this crazy thing we call existance. I continue my religious studies because I find it fascinating and I always learn something useful. But I am finally at a place of true inner peace without the church.
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#59
06-30-2008, 09:22 PM
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Fabu question
Hey Sheri - You posted that to my question. I asked something similar to Zerb but in the wrong forum for that type of thing. Just in case you thought you were losing your marbles
 you did in fact post and I appreciate it. I definitely have the same question and so far can only come up with the following for why people go to church & what for. 1 - guilt 2- an affinity for tiny pieces of bread I know there is an actual answer devoid of sarcasm but I just can't help myself. I'm in Chicago. Definitely don't go to church but have a good contact for a church attended by good friends. It's an affirming, almost exclusively gay episcopal church on the North Side near Uptown and I'd be happy to track down the info if anyone is interested. I won't go with you but would be happy to light the path.
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