What is holiness?

[jewelsangel]

As someone who is still wrestling with being homosexual and my spiritual upbringing/Christian beliefs, I find myself questioning what really is holiness. The contemporary church professes to preach holiness - which for many homosexuality is the opposite of holy. The message is that we must all be holy, righteous before God - live in HIS righteousness, and that ANY sin, including homosexuality goes against the essence of God has holy and calling for us to be holy.

So I am really speaking to those of you with Christian church backgrounds, because as I deal with health issues of me and my partner - I find myself wondering are we being punished. Are the wages of our "Sin" in homosexuality catching up with us?

Appreciate your thoughts...

[keltic63]

jewelsangel, I love that "jewel" is part of your screenname, it means that you are a precious one, and you need to remember that.

I grew up in a "holiness" church. No movies, no dancing, no cards, no gambling, no drinking, no, no, no, no. Get the picture? when a preacher starts talking about being holy, you usually get a list of things that you aren't allowed to do. Sadly, that's the easy, although burdensome, way out. The truth is that to be holy, is to saturate yourself with love, using God's love to fill your heart to overflowing and allowing that love to flow to others. legalists/fundies/evangelical conservatives will tell you that this "love" stuff is too simple. the fact is that doing the "love" thing is hard work.
example: at Penn Station in NYC Sunday evening, we saw a homeless man walk up to the garbage can that we were standing by and take out someone else's half-consumed soda and start drinking it. My bf was totally grossed out, and I started talking him, as well as myself, through this from the standpoint of love. Instead of being disgusted, we were able to arrive at a point of compassion and love, but the work part was getting to that point! I had to tell myself that he's homeless, has no money for food, and that although it was in a dirty trash can, the beverage was perfectly good, simply discarded. What would I do in the same situation? Instead of seeing a disgusting person, I saw someone doing what they had to in order to survive. this LOVE stuff takes work.

Now, what kind of loving God, sends illness as punishment? moreover, what kind of God is such a bad aim? I mean really, there are some people that are just downright evil and they don't get sick. There are some incredibly righteous people who suffer greatly. If this God is using sickness and suffering to punish sinners, this God isn't very good at being a supreme being. It's a theme that we can follow throughout the Bible too. Plenty of people ask God "how long shall the wicked prosper?" but we are reminded that the rain falls on the just and the unjust, that the sun shines on the fields of evil and the good.

others here may have a different idea, but holiness, to me, reflects the concept of showing God's love, and avoiding sin, which most often involves harming others or oneself.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by jewelsangel

As someone who is still wrestling with being homosexual and my spiritual upbringing/Christian beliefs, I find myself questioning what really is holiness. The contemporary church professes to preach holiness - which for many homosexuality is the opposite of holy. The message is that we must all be holy, righteous before God - live in HIS righteousness, and that ANY sin, including homosexuality goes against the essence of God has holy and calling for us to be holy.

So I am really speaking to those of you with Christian church backgrounds, because as I deal with health issues of me and my partner - I find myself wondering are we being punished. Are the wages of our "Sin" in homosexuality catching up with us?

Appreciate your thoughts...

The problem with that train of thought is that you can never be holy. Do the best you can every day, and you'll still come up short. That's not your fault, it's just part of the human condition.

In writing this response (I had a bunch that never made the final cut), I started thinking about the "be ye perfect" verse in Matthew, and how people are so frightened by it. Because if Jesus said I should be perfect, that means I can be perfect, and no matter how I try, I'm just no doggone good at being perfect.

At least that's what they tell me.

Anyway, I looked back at the Sermon on the Mount, and realized that I've been forgetting that it's one big sermon, not a bunch of little sermonettes. If you read the whole passage (Matthew 5-7), ignoring chapter and verse demarcations, you discover that there's an overarching theme in the sermon. His point is that we worry so much about keeping the rules that we forget about the reason behind the rules. If you listen really carefully, you can almost catch Jesus' cadence too. It's all kinds of cool.

The rules are there because we human beings need something more concrete than God's original intent. So yeah, you should keep your promises, but behind that is a Truth that you shouldn't even need to promise in the first place. Yes is yes, no is no, and the only reason we have to go further is because people have loused it up.

Yeah, way back in Leviticus there's a line about loving your neighbor, and people took that and reworked it to approval to hate their enemies. Well, no, that's not the point. You should love everybody. That was the point.

Am I making sense? This is a mushy idea, one I'm still playing with.

Sure, you should give to the poor, but you shouldn't be worrying about whether people see or not. People seeing it wasn't the point. In fact, isn't it better to do it when people won't see it? That'll keep you from being sinfully proud, right?

But then, right after he talks about fasting, Jesus turns his focus from how we should act toward each other (and not just by following all the rules) to God's relationship with us, our relationship with Him, and how we should emulate it with each other.

Whew. I'm exhausted. It's nice to get a little workout in the middle of the week, even if it's just in my little brain.

Finally, here are the lyrics to a poem written 150 or so years ago that so eloquently express the most important part of the mystery. Even though we break the rules sometimes, even though God always knew we would, even though we aren't perfect or holy, He's given a gift that nobody could possibly take away. No matter how much they think they can.


BEFORE THE THRONE
by Charitie L. Bancroft

Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea.
A great high Priest whose Name is Love
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven on His hands,
My name is written on His heart.
I know that while in Heaven He stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart.

When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of my guilt within,
Upward I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Savior died
My sinful soul is counted free.
For God the Just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.

Behold Him there the risen Lamb,
My perfect spotless righteousness,
The great unchangeable I AM,
The King of glory and of grace,
One in Himself I cannot die.
My soul is purchased by His blood,
My life is hid with Christ on high,
With Christ my Savior and my God!

[jewelsangel]

Keltic 63, Jewel is my partner, and she calls me Angel, so I am "Jewel's Angel". You are right that love takes a lot of work. I have always been a loving person and have been hurt a lot as a result - especially by "church people". But as they say, I should be living for God, and my question is what does that really mean. How do we know we are pleasing Him. How do you know that he really did create you to be homosexual. Maybe I am having a more difficult time because I am really bisexual I think. I used to date guys, dream of getting married until my Jewel came along and we fell in love. I had always prayed for a best friend, but I never thought I'd fall in love with her. And it is the most special thing... I have never been so close to anyone. And it is what I've always wanted. How do I know that is what God wants?

Matt,
That's a nice poem at the end of your post. I am sorry if I missed the point of what you said.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by jewelsangel

As someone who is still wrestling with being homosexual and my spiritual upbringing/Christian beliefs, I find myself questioning what really is holiness. The contemporary church professes to preach holiness - which for many homosexuality is the opposite of holy. The message is that we must all be holy, righteous before God - live in HIS righteousness, and that ANY sin, including homosexuality goes against the essence of God has holy and calling for us to be holy.

So I am really speaking to those of you with Christian church backgrounds, because as I deal with health issues of me and my partner - I find myself wondering are we being punished. Are the wages of our "Sin" in homosexuality catching up with us?

Appreciate your thoughts...

Ok. I'm game. I'll go right there. That's one sticky verse, isn't it?

The wages of sin is death.

Well. First off, as one who spent his youth as an Assembly of God person, I remember being very afraid that there was something I wasn't living up to, something I wasn't that I should be. Problem was, I hadn't come to terms with being gay yet, much less out of the closest or in a relationship.

Truth is, one can come out and be in a relationship and have 'not good enough' thoughts- based on the verse above and others. Thoughts which run one- that is- pull one's chain.

Oh.....fundi thoughts can be hard to let go of. They get right in there real deep.

How about a little reframing of that verse? How about we think of it this way?

No one gets out alive.

We are all going to die. We are all going to kick the bucket. We are all not going to be able to take anything with us in the end, whenever the end comes. So how are we going to live?

Are we going to live in fear that we aren't measuring up to someone else's idea of what holiness means? I hope not. That would be like playing 'what do the neighbors think'. And you can't please people who hate you or are ignorant about you. You just can't.

Can you love them, or at least give them some room in your head? I think so. That's what nonviolence is all about.

Let's talk about illness, Ok?

I don't know if you are talking about HIV and AIDS, but when I was first dealing with my sexuality in the 80's there was a LOT of verbage about HIV and AIDS was God's punishment on gay people.

Well. God must be an equal opportunity punisher because they are huge numbers in Africa who have the same illness and they aren't gay. In fact, the majority of them are straight. Overwhelmingly so. What a nasty God he must be.

What does this tell us? That the prejudices of religious conservatives are out there for all to see. And a little thinking about the matter shows just how ignorant conservatives are of human sexuality in general. Point is- Africa would not be experiencing the high rates of infection if men used condom's. But they don't. It's not part of their cultural milieu yet. They need programs and information. And love and care. Not people telling them how they are sinning.

And neither do you.

You aren't sinning by loving your partner. It's what you are made to do. In fact, my sense is that loving your partner is about as holy as you can get.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by jewelsangel

I am sorry if I missed the point of what you said.

One more sign that you're normal.

[jewelsangel]

Thanks all. I am appreciating your responses. Jewel is very important to me and my love for her is more powerful than I ever imagined love could be. It is baffling and comforting that God could love us both even more than that. We have our own rings and had our own private commitment ceremony a few months ago. We are most definitely soulmates and I am so thankful to have her. I don't want to lose her.

Question: What of the notion that the fact that God loves us is irrelevant because He will never go against His Word.?

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by jewelsangel

Thanks all. I am appreciating your responses. Jewel is very important to me and my love for her is more powerful than I ever imagined love could be. It is baffling and comforting that God could love us both even more than that. We have our own rings and had our own private commitment ceremony a few months ago. We are most definitely soulmates and I am so thankful to have her. I don't want to lose her.

Question: What of the notion that the fact that God loves us is irrelevant because He will never go against His Word.?

"His word" being what exactly?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by jewelsangel

Question: What of the notion that the fact that God loves us is irrelevant because He will never go against His Word.?

Oh my. Your question really takes me back my Assembly of God days. 'His Word'. Oy! It's what I have come to call 'fundi talk'.

Got a scripture you'd like to attach to this thought, or is it just a free floating equal opportunity one? The kind of which is often used to give one the sense that one isn't measuring up?

The 8 clobber passages are worth investigating if you haven't done so already. And there is plenty of threads and info on this site about them. That is, if the point here is the actual scripture, or 'Word of God', as the fundi's call it. Always done is a serious tone of voice, of course.

The Word of God!

(btw:It's very effective if one raises one's voice, eyebrows and points a finger when one says this!)

Actually I don't think of scripture as the Word of God at all, but that's not something most conservatives believe. But then again, I'm not a conservative anymore. Rather, my perception is that the books we have come to call the bible were written by men. Sure, you might say they were inspired, but I can go to a great musuem and see a lot of inspired paintings, but that doesn't mean I set up candles in front of them and worship them. That would be a particular kind of idolatry. And to me, that is what the expression The Word of God elicits, worshiping what was written and not thinking about it in a critical way, taking it much too seriously in all the wrong ways. In this case, it is not being used to inspire at all, but to condemn.

And my view is this:

Love Does Not Condemn.

Call me a universalist. Call me crazy. But I'm not going back to thinking in terms of The Word of God. All hush hush and we better watch what we say or we'll be struck by lightning.

Nope. Not any more. Going down that path is like cutting one's heart out.

Not for me.

Now. All this aside. How about chewing on this thought for awhile?

Her Word.

[pnggrad79]

Angel Honey! You are pleasing to God simply because you are living an authentic life before him. If you chose to live the straight life, you would be miserable and that is not what God wants from you. He wants you to be obedient to who he made you to be-a lesbian. Romans tells us that there is no therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Do you believe Jesus died for you? I am sure you do. But he didn't come down off the cross and say, "I am not dying for a homosexual!" He died for you just like you are. The Bible does not condemn you, no matter what the fundies say. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. If it was such a big deal, don't you think Jesus would have addressed it? No, he had plenty to say about hypocrites and judgemental people, though.

RELAX! Live your life as a happy lesbian, instead of as a miserable straight person fearing God instead of letting him embrace and love you. God is love, not fear. What you are telling yourself is a toxic tape that needs to be retaped with positive messages about who you are in Christ and the victory you have over this negative crap that keeps invading your head space.

I suggest you go to your Bible and write down positive verses that speak to your life in Christ. Tell them to yourself. Tape over the negativity with positive.

Hebrews talks about how Christ knew us from the foundation of the world. As he created the earth, He knew you would be a lesbian, and he still loved you enough to complete the work that God sent him to do. You are ok, you are loved and accepted and wanted by God and he has a purpose for you.

I feel your pain, because I used to do that same blasted thing. Still do sometimes. Set yourself free, sweetie, and live the life God made you to live.

[andrewlittle]

In a post made quite some time ago, u-dog made a very important distinction. The "Word of God" and the "word of God" are two very different things. I know I am not doing his post justice but, since I couldn't find it easily in a search, I will try to summarize.

In scripture, both do not appear. We never see the phrase the "Word of God", even in John. Jesus is "the Word" - period.

The "word of God" is a different matter. It appears frequently - but rarely in regards to scripture. Overwhelmingly, the "word of God" is the message of the prophets and the message of Jesus. It is, in effect, the good news - the gospel. The Bible is not the "word of God", but contains the "word of God" for those with "ears to hear and eyes to see."

In Matt 15:6 and Mark 7:13, the reference is even more profound:

Matt 15:6 - "So, for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God."
Mark 7:13 - "...thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many things like this."

Tradition clearly, and not just in these two verses, takes a back seat to the prophetic word. Part of that prophetic word is the constant notion that God loves us - unconditionally, I might add. To set aside that idea as in saying "God loves us is irrelevant" is to go against the "word of God".

God does not go against the "word of God", but many Christians do - regularly, as in the question you posed. No where - not once - in the prophets or the message of Jesus - does the subject of LGBT come up. Since it doesn't come up at all, the "word of God" also does not damn LGBT. Christians who value their tradition over the "word of God", however, do go against the "word of God". They set it aside as an inconvenient truth, meanwhile proclaiming that anyone who holds it up as an ideal is an idolator or sinner.

So, which is the sin? Idolizing their own tradition over the "word of God" or living into that "word" prophetically?

[jewelsangel]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

RELAX! Live your life as a happy lesbian, instead of as a miserable straight person fearing God instead of letting him embrace and love you. God is love, not fear. What you are telling yourself is a toxic tape that needs to be retaped with positive messages about who you are in Christ and the victory you have over this negative crap that keeps invading your head space.

I suggest you go to your Bible and write down positive verses that speak to your life in Christ. Tell them to yourself. Tape over the negativity with positive.

I must admit, I am QUITE impressionable. I've just been a person who wants to make others happy - my family, friend, Jewel and most of all GOD. Always straight-laced, always doing the "right" things because I am too much of a coward to go against the grain. One thought I had was that God uses different means to test us all. My story is not going to be like someone else's story. Is this my test -- is He really challenging me to be who I am and stand strong before all - KNOWING that He is behind me. That is the hard part...the KNOWING WITHOUT A DOUBT. I have always been someone to look for someone else to tell me about these things - a friend or a mother figure, perhaps. Someone to guide me through life who has all the truth...like YODA! Wish I was a Jedi Knight.

I have also been struggling much of my life with wanting to be a man -- not so much physically as wanting to be a part of the guy club. And if I was a guy I could easily marry my Jewel with no problem and support her in ways that I wish I could but can't because of the law, etc. etc. It really sucks.

But back to holiness -- I guess those thoughts aren't really "holy" either.

I really want to find a church...we both do. I went to one of the churches listed on welcomingchurches.org that is near me and it was okay - just something missing there. It is hard to find the courage to try agian.