Rick Warren to Deliver Invocation at Inauguration

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

Obama picking Warren is tantamount to McCain choosing Palin. It's also as sucidal a move!

No, I have to disagree. Rick Warren will never become President of the United States under any circumstances. Asking Rick Warren to say a prayer at one event is nothing like nominating him Vice President of the United States. It's also not a "suicidal move." Let's see what Obama does as President--I still have hope.

Steven Webster

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

I'm glad for Barney Frank's statement. He does well in expressing his disappointment with Obama's choice and responding to Obama's justification as "irrelevant."

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/18/7504

Steven

[Daniel]

The mayor of San Francisco- Gavin Newsom- was on Rachel Maddow this evening and made a salient point.

He noted that asking Warren to speak was tantamount to rewarding him for his stance against gay marriage as well as being a very tough pill to swallow for the couples who's rights are in question.

I don't think Obama 'get's' it, that is, unless he is trying to shuffle the deck for his next election. In that case, his action could be viewed as pure politics.

Then again, Obama mentioned Warren on the at the beginning of his autobiography. Obama, it could be posited, is simply playing out his own likes and dislikes and the larger matters of symbolism are lost on him.

[scrupulous_stoic]

I agree with the point that this position just rewards Warren's positions, including his outrageous statements of homosexuality in general. However, Obama has stated, time and time again, that he would try to bring everyone together, so it shouldn't be any surprise he would pick someone such as Warren (who could add ex-McCain supports into Obama's ranks).

Personally, I believe that Obama's choice is not a sign of things to come, but negates the support that the gay community gave to him.

Also, "Fierce supporter of LGBT rights?" That is why you didn't say anything concerning Proposition 8 until the last opportune time...

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by scrupulous_stoic

I
Personally, I believe that Obama's choice is not a sign of things to come, but negates the support that the gay community gave to him.

Also, "Fierce supporter of LGBT rights?" That is why you didn't say anything concerning Proposition 8 until the last opportune time...

I agree with you that it's not a sign of what is to come but it does act as an affront to GLBT people. Not a wise choice, at least from my point of view and I didn't see anything in Obama's justification that leads me to believe it is a wise choice for any reason. Perhaps he is wooing the conservatives, but either way it does end up as a reward for Warren's anti-gay stance. Especially with the timing to close to Prop 8 winning (and all the other homophobic ballot initiatives.

I will put more weight on Obama's actions than his choice in this matter. However, I'll be watching a bit more diligently and grading a little more harshly because of this choice. Obama has publicly said he will work to repeal DOMA and DADT, and that he is committed to passing a Federal hate crimes bill. If those get delayed too long, it will make me suspicious and lose some respect.

With the backlash from the GLBT community, I also feel Obama owes us a better explanation and some recognition of how we feel about his choice. His "I'm the dad thats why" isn't going to work with me on this one. But again, I'm not going to judge his first term by this one decision. I've lost all respect for Warren with his outspoken anti-gay opinions, his arrogance and self-righteousness and his support for Prop 8. He's just the second coming of Jerry Falwell.

[scrupulous_stoic]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I agree with you that it's not a sign of what is to come but it does act as an affront to GLBT people. Not a wise choice, at least from my point of view and I didn't see anything in Obama's justification that leads me to believe it is a wise choice for any reason. Perhaps he is wooing the conservatives, but either way it does end up as a reward for Warren's anti-gay stance. Especially with the timing to close to Prop 8 winning (and all the other homophobic ballot initiatives.

I will put more weight on Obama's actions than his choice in this matter. However, I'll be watching a bit more diligently and grading a little more harshly because of this choice. Obama has publicly said he will work to repeal DOMA and DADT, and that he is committed to passing a Federal hate crimes bill. If those get delayed too long, it will make me suspicious and lose some respect.

With the backlash from the GLBT community, I also feel Obama owes us a better explanation and some recognition of how we feel about his choice. His "I'm the dad thats why" isn't going to work with me on this one. But again, I'm not going to judge his first term by this one decision. I've lost all respect for Warren with his outspoken anti-gay opinions, his arrogance and self-righteousness and his support for Prop 8. He's just the second coming of Jerry Falwell.

In his own words, Warren is more of a Dobson.

I agree. We shall see what happens in the first term... though I will probably be in Canada or the Netherlands at that time...

[Emproph]

Indefensible because it was 100% AVOIDABLE.

A divider, by anti-gay self definition, was sought out, and is being defended in the name of unity.

That defense of the divider, is additionally divisive.

Tymejumper is spot on:

Originally Posted by tymejumper

Obama picking Warren is tantamount to McCain choosing Palin. It's also as sucidal a move!

Furthermore, any religious leader who still touts the merits of Proposition 8, must then also support the LIES that were told to pass it.

Either Rick Warren is consciously aware of those lies, or is too stupid to understand what lies are.

In either case, he’s grossly unqualified to be speaking on behalf of, or in relation to Americans as a whole.

And SINCE that’s that case, Barack Obama is either consciously aware it, and his “unity” spiel is just another disingenuous political ploy, or he’s accidentally made a very very obvious and avoidable mistake.

And that’s strike two on the LGBT front for him. The Donnie McClurkin fiasco was strike one.

Which makes strike two, all the more meaningful.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Emproph

Indefensible because it was 100% AVOIDABLE.

A divider, by anti-gay self definition, was sought out, and is being defended in the name of unity.

That defense of the divider, is additionally divisive.

Other than that I agree with you.

Spot on yourself Emproph!

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

Andrew Sullivan has been discussing the Warren mess the last couple days. This morning he mentions the visit last summer by Soulforce where Warren spurned dialogue with LGBT people.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...arrens-in.html

Steven Webster

[Matt Algren]

Rick Warren is also connected to an ex-gay group, though they try to keep it on the DL.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by Emproph

I
And that’s strike two on the LGBT front for him. The Donnie McClurkin fiasco was strike one.

Which makes strike two, all the more meaningful.

Patrick (or anyone), could you give me a lesson on the above? I've either not read about McClurkin or don't remember (I am getting long in the tooth). Thanks!

[Alecto]

Maybe this should be it's own topic (if so i'll make it) but it seems to fit here:
I continue to grow aware of blatant, blood-boilingly obvious unfairness in every day life, and one of those things is that we're expected (like other minorities) to treat our oppression as a "political" discussion, or an "academic" discussion. We're supposed to "tolerate other views" about our very personal and very real PAIN, and it's frustrating to me that other people don't seem to see this. I feel like there's a question in here somewhere about who else here sees it, and how they might get others to see it, but I can't really form specific questions so much as stand in exasperated awe.

[Jennifer5]

Perhaps I'm just the nieve girl. I haven't lived long enough, I haven't yet learned how to see the bad in everyone. Instead I find myself always searching for a reason to believe.

I don't like what I hear about Rick Warren, but I do not think that this is a reason to be upset.

Reverse it. Make the setting Bush's inauguration, say that Mel White was speaking. Bush supporters would have still wanted him and the GLBT community and liberals would have probably considered giving him a chance.

Rick Warren represents part of America that Obama could not reach otherwise.

We all scream and shout that we want a President that will bring everyone together, but then continue to complain when we see it actually happening.

Again, I'm nieve. I believe that Obama knows that he is doing and I really hope I don't end up disappointed.

Please do explain this to me because I do not understand. You cannot have it both ways. Do you want a united nation or do we want to continue on a path of politics based on arguing about who's right and who's wrong?

"United we stand, divided we fall."

Think about it.

[Matt Algren]

I think your premise is flawed. Every opinion is not worthy of respect. We don't bring the KKK to the table to talk about race relations. We don't bring anti-Semites to the table to talk about Judaism. We don't bring sexist mofos to talk about gender equality.

Likewise, we shouldn't be asked to sit across the table from anti-gay bigots, people who run ex-gay programs, and people who compare us to pedophiles. We (gay or not) shouldn't be expected to recognize their views as worthy of respect.

[Petrese]

It won't make any difference. Most gays have never really experienced discrimination and only really begin to understand when they come out or are in the middle of something that comes up against their orientation like wanting to marry. And so a lot of gays know the discrimination is there and there is a risk it will affect them but until it actually does they only have an opinion about things like Rick Warren from a perspective of theory.

Most straight white middle class people have this same perspective and are in a majority and so a selection of Mr Warren is seen as maybe not as bad as it really is, and it is really bad. The reason I think that it really doesn't make any difference is because the opinion of the majority of people in this country towards gay people is already set and one more reinforcement won't even have an effect. Rick Warren is Not going to change his views and most all Americans won't change theirs either. We are only going to achieve a minimal amount of equal rights changes but the change of attitude towards gay people is only going to come through a change of generations, maybe two or three more at the least and so we won't see it in our lifetimes.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

I think your premise is flawed. Every opinion is not worthy of respect. We don't bring the KKK to the table to talk about race relations. We don't bring anti-Semites to the table to talk about Judaism. We don't bring sexist mofos to talk about gender equality.

Likewise, we shouldn't be asked to sit across the table from anti-gay bigots, people who run ex-gay programs, and people who compare us to pedophiles. We (gay or not) shouldn't be expected to recognize their views as worthy of respect.

That's a different argument though, from an emotional standpoint the Rick Warren's might be the equivilant of the KKK. However, from the physical standpoint they are not.

The opinion portion of who Rick Warren is, will never be against the law. No matter how wrong it may be.

At this point in time, according to our current laws, he is just another citizen who has done nothing wrong. Therefore treating him like he is evil (even though you may feel that he is) would be wrong and a form of discrimination in the eyes of the public.

If we want to see real change, sometimes we're going to have to work with people that we do not like. Luckily, that does not even include Rick, he's only speaking. But when it comes to ending a war, improving education, and getting health care, opinions about equal marriage rights are not relevant. If Obama seeks the opinion of a Rick Warren when it comes to dealing with human rights, then we have a reason to be seriously upset. We have to choose our battles or we're not ever going to accomplish anything.

[Alecto]

I don't think it's fair to choose someone who, spiritually, merely continues the myth that it's the gays versus the religious, and then complain that we're being unreasonable when we don't like it. This was a free choice, there were more qualified people to speak to the entire country, but Obama picked Warren. By "choosing our battles", we give consent with our silence.

[tdogg]

The disappointment is based upon Obama's premise of 'real change'. When you take that with his promise of 'equality' and then measure it against his stated personal belief that he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, then the choice of Rick Warren to participate on this huge historical day (Jan 20th) feels like a slap in the face. In the grand scheme of his term as president, perhaps not a major factor. But it still feels like a slap in the face and I believe we have every right to feel disappointed, discouraged and to let Obama know we are not pleased. We will see how 'fierce' Obama is in working towards equality when we see what he does, or doesn't do, while in his first term. I'm not sure he really thought this decision through and now that he has made this bed, he's going to have to lie in it a while.

The group I'm involved in here in Sacramento is tossing around an idea to gather up all our "Purpose Driven Life" books we bought or received as gifts, write Rick Warren a personal message inside and then borrow or rent a truck and drive them down to the steps of Saddleback Church. We are call it the "Purpose Driven Drive Back". If we can generate enough interest, then we will go forward. If anyone has one they want to 'lose' let me know!!!

[Jeff Lutes]

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/12/that...arren.php#more

[Jennifer5]

Nate was able to put my feelings into words.

The Inaugural Prayer, An Opportunity for Change
The facts: President-elect Obama, a very progressive and justice-minded leader, chose Rick Warren to give the prayer at his presidential inauguration. Rick Warren pastors a very large evangelical church and he supported Prop 8 which aimed to ban marriage for lesbian & gay Californians.

The drama: Progressives and LGBT people everywhere are ticked off, upset and are demanding Obama disinvite Warren and choose a more inclulsive faith leader.

Look folks, we are reacting to Obama as if he is a Bush. As if we don't really believe he is a man of integrity. As if we don't really believe in his leadership. AND we are demonizing Rick Warren because he has done something we don't agree with.

Cut it out.

President Obama is the most powerful and progressive leader we have ever had. Everything about his campaign said this man is different. He is integrity. He is equality. He is leadership. And he is change.

Stop throwing a temper tantrum. Try on that this really is the wisest choice to make. What if Obama really knew what he was doing?

Example: What if this experience causes Pastor Warren to really get confronted with the injustice and lack of compassion of some of his beliefs, teachings and actions about LGBT people? What if this is the source of Pastor Warren leading a change in the American church?

If Obama is teaching us anything, it is to expand our vision. To take off the blinders that are creating our "my way or the highway" tunnel vision.

Now. Standing in that Obama really knows what he's doing and is really committed to integrity and justice, you may still disagree with a choice he's made.

Instead of attacking him... or DEMANDING he do something... What would it be like to make a powerful request that acknowledged your faith in him AND requested that he choose someone else... or even better, created an interfaith group that gave inaugural prayers from several faith traditions. Such a group could be balanced with conservative and progressive faith leaders AND would have room for Pastor Warren.

Finally, let me say some things about Rick Warren. I disagree with his position on Prop 8. I disagree with some of his theology. And, I really respect him for his commitment to making a difference, helping people and being God's love in the world. He is not a bad person. He is not our enemy.

Our enemy is the mis-information that causes bias and fear.

When we go on the war path, attacking a human being who has been affected by the misinformation, we ABSOLUTELY give up our right to stand as people committed to justice and love.