The victimization of Hamas

[Here2Learn22]

I am so incredibly tired of hearing people defend Hamas and condemn Israel. You cannot victimize a group of people who use random intances of violence and death to get what they want.

I feel for the civilians being lost in the conflict in Gaza. I'm not proud of Israel's actions, but I understand their necessity. Hamas are hiding behind villages and settlements of innocent people that are being killed when Israel attempts to attack Hamas. They are using human sheilds and these people are called victims?

Sorry, I'm not sure if this applys to the forums. I just needed to vent.

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by Here2Learn22

I am so incredibly tired of hearing people defend Hamas and condemn Israel. You cannot victimize a group of people who use random intances of violence and death to get what they want.
I feel for the civilians being lost in the conflict in Gaza. I'm not proud of Israel's actions, but I understand their necessity. Hamas are hiding behind villages and settlements of innocent people that are being killed when Israel attempts to attack Hamas. They are using human sheilds and these people are called victims?

Sorry, I'm not sure if this applys to the forums. I just needed to vent.

I agree, basically, with the statement I have highlighted. Using that logic, however, leads one to condemn the authorities of both Israel and Hamas - not the country and not the general population.

Israel severely limits supplies that are essential to human survival - killing many "non-violently". Hamas conducts rocket attacks that kill small numbers of people, but that create a constant tension and fear. Israel responds by bombing and killing a hundred or so Palestinians and by shutting down the supply pipeline even further. Hamas responds by tripling the rocket attacks, which is entirely predictable, and kills another Israeli. Israel responds and the death toll reaches 230. Tit for tat, except for each person Hamas is responsible for killing, Israel kills about a 100 violently and uncounted numbers through lack of medical supplies, power and food. The Palestinian death toll is now over 500.

Not only is the response disproportionate, but the count of militant vs. civilian deaths is suspect. See the story below.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm

[dsdrane]

...but I am 100% anti-Hamas.

Israel is no doubt inflicting tremendous pain on the people of Gaza right now. It's incredibly frustrating and gut-wrenching to watch.

I imagine it's no picnic for those doing the inflicting, either.

But the fault -- at least in the short term -- lies squarely with Hamas.

Hamas doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist...in fact, they go a step further by being dedicated to Israel's destruction. These are the people with whom Israel is supposed to "negotiate".

The fact that Gaza was then blockaded should surprise no one. Was Israel supposed to sit idly by while Hamas imported any numbers of weapons?

I find it curious that Hamas, despite the blockade, was still able to obtain these rockets that they keep flinging over the border, but somehow couldn't figure out how to smuggle in baby formula or medicine. And I particularly like how they use schools, mosques, and hospitals as shields for their weapons and fighters.

Egypt, Jordan, and even the Fatah government in the West Bank have figured out that Israel isn't going away. Hamas -- and the people of Gaza who democratically elected them -- need to grow up and do likewise.

Hamas has the power to stop this crisis right now.

Perhaps they should bone up on their Gandhi....

[dsdrane]

This is an article I read yesterday at The Huffington Post. I think it sums up the incredible frustration so many of us find with the current situation.

[Here2Learn22]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

I agree, basically, with the statement I have highlighted. Using that logic, however, leads one to condemn the authorities of both Israel and Hamas - not the country and not the general population.

Israel severely limits supplies that are essential to human survival - killing many "non-violently". Hamas conducts rocket attacks that kill small numbers of people, but that create a constant tension and fear. Israel responds by bombing and killing a hundred or so Palestinians and by shutting down the supply pipeline even further. Hamas responds by tripling the rocket attacks, which is entirely predictable, and kills another Israeli. Israel responds and the death toll reaches 230. Tit for tat, except for each person Hamas is responsible for killing, Israel kills about a 100 violently and uncounted numbers through lack of medical supplies, power and food. The Palestinian death toll is now over 500.

Not only is the response disproportionate, but the count of militant vs. civilian deaths is suspect. See the story below.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm

You are right. I acknowledge Israel's faulty practices. I was just angry yesterday. It makes me happy when I get so many positive responses from everyone. Thank you.

[NathanATX]

Violence is violence is violence.

A few weeks ago, I received a photo of a pile of dead Palestenian children that were killed during an Israeli bombing.

Friends, consider that the commitment we have to use the principles of non-violence in the work of LGBT equality is preparing us to be able to speak powerfully and effectively about other justice issues.

What kind of difference would a non violent approach make for Palestenians? For Israelis?

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

A few weeks ago, I received a photo of a pile of dead Palestenian children that were killed during an Israeli bombing.

We're seeing these images every day now, and indeed they are extremely upsetting. And fury at the Israelis, while understandable, must be countered with fury at Hamas for putting these children in harm's way.

Originally Posted by NathanATX

What kind of difference would a non violent approach make for Palestenians? For Israelis?

Someone once remarked about Yassir Arafat that he never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. In my own lifetime I've seen public sentiment grow sympathetic to the Palestinian cause only to be squandered by yet another hijacking, yet another failed peace initiative, etc.

"Violence is violence", yes, but the reality is this: the State of Israel is not going away, and any strikes against it will be met with the kind of disproportionate response that comes from two millennia of survival tactics. Israel is fully aware that this current conflict, now over 60 years old, cannot be won militarily, but that will not stop them from firing back when fired upon.

Go ahead and try to explain to these grandchildren of the Nazi's Final Solution about non-violence. The holocaust, sadly, is as much of a defining moment to Israelis as our revolution is to us. The safety of Israel -- the state and the "tribe" -- is paramount; they will never back down...basically because they cannot.

Fatah seems to understand this at long last, but Hamas still refuses. Until they understand they cannot win anything through violence, Israel will continue to answer violence with more violence.

Hamas, like I said earlier, has the power to stop this now. If they stop firing into Israel, the Israelis will no longer have any excuse to respond.

Then they can talk.

[pnggrad79]

I know there are atrocities on both sides of this conflict. However, Israel must do what it can to curb the illegal bombings that Hamas and others like them perpetrate on them. Hamas and the like have a culture of death. They use women and children as human shields and then offer themselves up as martyrs to a cause that is spawned by hatred. Then the stupid media shows poor, helpless victims of Israel's retaliation, when it wasn't Israel that started it. They never show the Israeli victims of Hamas and Hezbollah and the PLO and Islamic Jihad...

It is a vicious cycle and no end in sight. One of my kids in class said today, "Why can't they all just coexist?" I said," I wonder that myself." If Israel lets the West Bank and Gaza be Palestinian then all these murderous idiots will build bombs and Iraq and Iran will pay these dumbass families $25,000 to their young sons and daughters to strap bombs to themselves and go blow themselves up along with some Jews. Until BOTH sides decide to stop this insanity, then it will just continue. Hamas will throw bombs, and send in the suicide bombers, and Israel will retaliate. It is a culture of death.

[Daniel]

Expects the other to conceed, to go first, to fold. But it is unlikely that this will happen. Even if Israel is able to pound the Palestinian's into submission, it will be a phrryhic victory.

[Rick336]

The scary thing about this is, if one of Hamas' missiles hits an Israeli nuclear plant then tens of thousands of people are probably going to die and this becomes a whole new ballgame.

Ancient religions and modern warfare is a very deadly mix. Let's hope this conflict ends soon.

Rick

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Rick336

The scary thing about this is, if one of Hamas' missiles hits an Israeli nuclear plant then tens of thousands of people are probably going to die and this becomes a whole new ballgame.

This is the real issue. The only reason Israeli deaths are not greater is because Hamas lacks the resources -- in firepower, perhaps in marksmanship, perhaps both -- to inflict more damage. If they could, they would. They've said as much.

Israel, on the other hand, has the capability to level the place...but doesn't. It would be barbaric, inhuman and evil, of course.

So, what we're left with is one side who would if they could, and the other who can but won't...while still reserving the right to make sure that the ones who would if they could never can.

The violence is appalling, to be sure...but we would be having a very different conversation if Hamas and others had the capability to do what they have publically expressed wanting to do. As someone who experienced the WTC towers fall 4 blocks from my apartment, I do not delude myself that the threat is very real....

How many times do we have to see the unthinkable happen before we realize the unthinkable can happen?

Originally Posted by Rick336

Ancient religions and modern warfare is a very deadly mix. Let's hope this conflict ends soon.

Rick

Amen.

[BenL]

Every military participant with half a brain on either side must know that this conflict will never be settled with weapons. The only way to settle it is politically, and one has to wonder whether the political will exists in sufficient quantity on either or both sides for that to happen.

What's going on now is an attempt by both parties to "change reality on the ground." Why? Because there are two political dates looming: Jan. 20 when Barack Obama is inaugurated and Feb. 10 when Israel holds general elections.

Politically, this is about what Hillary Clinton will inherit as secretary of state and whether Israeli voters will be willing to change leaders during an armed conflict. I haven't read much political analysis from the Palestinian/Hamas point of view, but I can only think their political aim is to raise international ire against Israel's military intervention.

It makes it hard to belieive that politics is about the art of the possible, doesn't it?

[pnggrad79]

There won't be peace until Hamas decides to quick lobbing rockets into Israeli towns. You don't see Israeli suicide bombers and such. Hamas may have legitimate concerns, but throwing rockets into Israeli towns is not going to do anything but breed more violence. Since its birth in 1948, Israel has had to be on constant standby due to the threat of 22 Arab nations surrounding it who want nothing more than its absolute destruction. That is why Osama exists. That is why the PLO exists.

I am not saying the Palestinians have been treated fairly, however, it seems that with every concession these people get, they use it to create more violence. They deserve self determination and a government of their own, but they don't have the right to impinge on the same freedom of Israel. Israeli towns were victimized first by homemade bombs from Gaza compliments of Hamas. There are innocent victims on both sides, and when Hamas stops using their wives and children as shields for their murderous activities, then maybe the innocent victims will not exist.

Let's stop saying Poor Hamas! That's like saying to the bully in the school yard, "You poor little thing, you threw a rock and hit that little girl and she had the nerve to throw one right back. TSK, TSK!"

[Here2Learn22]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

There won't be peace until Hamas decides to quick lobbing rockets into Israeli towns. You don't see Israeli suicide bombers and such. Hamas may have legitimate concerns, but throwing rockets into Israeli towns is not going to do anything but breed more violence. Since its birth in 1948, Israel has had to be on constant standby due to the threat of 22 Arab nations surrounding it who want nothing more than its absolute destruction. That is why Osama exists. That is why the PLO exists.

I am not saying the Palestinians have been treated fairly, however, it seems that with every concession these people get, they use it to create more violence. They deserve self determination and a government of their own, but they don't have the right to impinge on the same freedom of Israel. Israeli towns were victimized first by homemade bombs from Gaza compliments of Hamas. There are innocent victims on both sides, and when Hamas stops using their wives and children as shields for their murderous activities, then maybe the innocent victims will not exist.

Let's stop saying Poor Hamas! That's like saying to the bully in the school yard, "You poor little thing, you threw a rock and hit that little girl and she had the nerve to throw one right back. TSK, TSK!"

I agree with you, but keep in mind that Hamas is a very small part of the Palastinian population. Yes there is a huge anti-Israeli sentiment among Palastinians, but not all of them are terrorists. Most are victims. Be careful when you use the term "these people" as it has dangerous implications.

Otherwise, well said.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Here2Learn22

Yes there is a huge anti-Israeli sentiment among Palastinians, but not all of them are terrorists. Most are victims.

Yes, most are victims of an insane holy book that demands that they kill unbelievers.

Rick

[pnggrad79]

They are victims only because they allow terrorists to use them as shields and to make their homes into bomb factories. I don't call them victims, they are aiding and abetting criminal activities. I call them accomplices. The sad thing is that Hamas values human life only minimally and it shows when they strap bombs to 18 month old children and command them to blow themselves up. It is a culture of death.

[dsdrane]

The Gazans, the Palestinians, the Israelis...they're all victims.

They're victims of having inherited a millennia-long, futile struggle for dominance of a tiny part of the world with very limited resources.

A quick walk through the Old City in Jerusalem shows the strata of this historic tug-of-war.

Unfortunately, though perhaps understandably, the price has been radicalism on both sides. There are Israelis who provoke by planting settlements where they do not belong, and there Palestinian who provoke by lobbing rockets over the border. We can argue about who is worse, but the bottom line is that both knowingly provoke.

The great majority of Palestinians alive today were born after the modern-day state of Israel was born. They were weaned on the stories and/or realities of war and occupation in much the same way that Israelis were weaned on the horrors of the Holocaust. Encouraged by the larger Arab world, however, many bought into this notion that the clock could be turned back and the state of Israel destroyed. We could have had a two-state solution at the end of the Clinton Administration, but the Arab world left Yassir Arafat flapping in the breeze and he ultimately demurred. The Israelis were ready; the PLO/Fatah government was ready; but the Arab world was not yet ready.

Neither, apparently, is Hamas.

Yes, ultimately, it is up to the people of Gaza (the ones who voted for Hamas, anyway) to realize that the Hamas government has been, at best, counterproductive, and at worst, a disaster. However, we should give them some slack in the "thinking clearly" department.

The real tradegy -- over and above the obvious harm to lives and limbs -- is the fact that clashes like this harden opinions even more. That's why it's so important to support both sides in finding a way to a cease fire; they can't do it by themselves.

My personal wish is that Egypt conspires with other moderate voices in the Middle East to leash and muzzle Hamas. I believe they could do it if they really wanted to....

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

There are Israelis who provoke by planting settlements where they do not belong....

Yes. They believe God gave them that land.

I think God wants me to have California. All you Californians better start packing.


Rick

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Rick336

They believe God gave them that land.

I think God wants me to have California. All you Californians better start packing.

He also gave it to their cousins, the Palestinians.

And you, too, should you desire to relocate. Or California...whichever. (Both are lovely...at times with strikingly similar terrains, come to think of it...and both have lots of Jews and Muslims...hey, wait a minute...are we onto something here!?!?)

[Eugene]

I say this after noting that I grew up in a premillennial environment where support for Israel was considered a Christian obligation ...

And I say this knowing that Zechariah says that, "in the last days, I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all nations," and I still believe on some level that we are living in that time ...

I hope President Obama finds some way to end America's subsidy of the nation of Israel. We can't afford it -- politically or economically.