The victimization of Hamas

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Eugene

I hope President Obama finds some way to end America's subsidy of the nation of Israel. We can't afford it -- politically or economically.

Don't forget that we pay beaucoup bucks to Egypt, too. We essentially have been paying Eqypt and Israel not to fight...since 1979.

[pnggrad79]

If we have been paying Egypt to keep peace with Israel, then why the hell do we keep giving millions of dollars to the Saudis so they can turn right around and finance so many suicide missions? They are paying these poor families to sacrifice their unmarried sons and daughters to blow up Israelis.
If the US finds other energy sources and pulls back on their use of Saudi oil, hmmm, where will these Muslim nations make their money? In China?

[Unmasked]

I am an absolute anti-Zionist. The Jews lived peacefully among the Arabs before Israel was established. Christians say that the land belongs to the Jews, but the Torah says that the Jews will not have their homeland. The very existence of Israel violates the Jewish faith. It is time for the dissolution of Israel. Let them live among the nations.

[pnggrad79]

I must respectfully disagree with you Unmasked. It is because of Israel's dispersion that led to so much persecution of them. They need and deserve a place of their own. The land of Palestine is historically and rightfully the Jewish people's home. The Palestinians came there after the Jews were forced out by the Roman Empire in 70AD. The Palestinians are racially Syrian, Lebanese or Jordanian. These countries have refused to allow them back in, wanting them to be stirred up constantly, unemployed, uneducated, and poor in order to keep them discontent with Israel. It wasn't Israel who started these wars. They have responded like any nation attacked. Why can't they live peaceably side by side? Because they have been enemies for 6-7000 years.

I am wholeheartedly Zionist. I believe the Jews have a right to the land of Israel, and if the Palestinians want to live there, they need to stop making the bombs and doing suicide missions. The Israelis need to set up job programs for the Palestinians, and get them into the political process where they feel they have a voice. But years of propaganda and radical Islamist dogma prevent this from ever happening. When they start strapping bombs to 18 month old babies, something is wrong... They have a culture of death.

[andrewlittle]

That is the title of an article by Shlomo Sand, the well respected professor of history at Tel Aviv university.

The articles can be read here (translated from French since it was in a French magazine): http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel

Excerpts:

Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.

But if there was no exile after 70 AD, where did all the Jews who have populated the Mediterranean since antiquity come from? The smokescreen of national historiography hides an astonishing reality. From the Maccabean revolt of the mid-2nd century BC to the Bar Kokhba revolt of the 2nd century AD, Judaism was the most actively proselytising religion. ...The 1st century AD saw the emergence in modern Kurdistan of the Jewish kingdom of Adiabene, just one of many that converted.

Although the early 4th century triumph of Christianity did not mark the end of Jewish expansion, it relegated Jewish proselytism to the margins of the Christian cultural world. During the 5th century, in modern Yemen, a vigorous Jewish kingdom emerged in Himyar, whose descendants preserved their faith through the Islamic conquest and down to the present day. Arab chronicles tell of the existence, during the 7th century, of Judaised Berber tribes; and at the end of the century the legendary Jewish queen Dihya contested the Arab advance into northwest Africa. Jewish Berbers participated in the conquest of the Iberian peninsula and helped establish the unique symbiosis between Jews and Muslims that characterised Hispano-Arabic culture.

"The Palestinians are racially Syrian, Lebanese or Jordanian." Yes, actually, if you go back several centuries before, they were called Canaanites.

[Eugene]

I am wholeheartedly American. I think it is time the United States stopped involving itself in the conflicts of people who are perpetually at war. And frankly, I don't care about Zionism or anti-Zionism because I have divorced myself from religious sentiment in the matter. I have more cultural sympathy with Jewish people, but my Jewish friends are Americans, not Israelis.

Yes, actually, if you go back several centuries before, they were called Canaanites.

Whatever they were "called", I don't consider Palestinian Arabs to be Canaanites. Canaanites predated Abraham.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Eugene

And frankly, I don't care about Zionism or anti-Zionism because I have divorced myself from religious sentiment in the matter.

So did the early Zionists; the people pushing for Jewish self-determination were largely secular Europeans tired of the endless progroms and discrimation and persecution in Christian Europe.

They were also leftists, believing that only through farming and labor could the Jewish people finally become self-sufficient. Though the strength of that movemet has faded, many young American Jews (and others) still travel to Israel for a stint on a kibbutz. (The spa at the Dead Sea is even a kibbutz: Ein-Gedi.) The idea is to plant, to stay put.

In fact, it is only in the last generation that orthodox Jews have accepted the reality of the Jewish state, but only then because they realized it was politically expedient to do so. Add to these some crazy American cousins from Brooklyn and you get a more national zionism that plants Jewish settlements in an attempt to grab as much land as possible.

Anyone familiar with Israeli politics knows how precarious every government there is because of all the various parties. No one party can ever garner enough votes to rule alone, so the government is always made up of a coalition so fragile that a handful of members can bolt and bring it down.

The one thing, however, that unites them all is dealing with any threat to the state's existence. Normally, the scenes in the Knesset make the British House of Commons look like a tea party; but, lob a rocket over the border into Israel, and you'll find a nation united with the knowledge that no one else will defend them. This recent article in the NY Times sums it up well.

Originally Posted by Eugene

I have more cultural sympathy with Jewish people, but my Jewish friends are Americans, not Israelis.

Yes, but they are still Jews, and they and their allies fight for Israel because they know, if the chips are down, there is a place for them. They may not live there (60% of the world's Jews do not), but they (and Israel) reserve the right for them to go there. It's the ultimate peace of mind...the ultimate "in case of emergency, break glass".

Once a month, Dash has a gig singing at a North Shore synagogue for the sabbath service. I often go along because a) it's different, cool, interesting, and beautiful and b) I do loves me some Jews. (A trip to Israel in the late 80s, and an adulthood spent largely in Manhattan and South Florida will do that.) And, mind you, this is a reformed and very liberal congregation...hardly a bunch of neo-con hawks, but their solidarity with the Jewish state (Israeli politics aside) is unbreakable. It's not about politics; it's about family.

This is a rambling post...sorry. I guess my main point is: don't conflate zionism with religious fervor. What's happening in the Middle East is more complex than "mere" religious differences.

[Eugene]

Yes, but they are still Jews, and they and their allies fight for Israel because they know, if the chips are down, there is a place for them. They may not live there (60% of the world's Jews do not), but they (and Israel) reserve the right for them to go there. It's the ultimate peace of mind...the ultimate "in case of emergency, break glass".

In my opinion, your statement illustrates exactly what is wrong with the Israeli lobby in America.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Eugene

And I say this knowing that Zechariah says that, "in the last days, I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all nations," and I still believe on some level that we are living in that time ...

I disagree. I'm 57 years old and I've been hearing that we're living in the last days for the past 57 years. According to one author, Jesus was supposed to usher in the last days when he returned in 2008. Except, he never showed up. He probably got tied up with business.....again!

But if you're waiting for the last days, you're probably going to need to stick around until the year 20000000009. I think that's the year the earth is supposed to collide into the sun.

Not me. I'll probably hang out for another 30 years but then I'm going to go lay in a cemetery and wait there for Jesus. They keep saying he's supposed to return by then but I won't be holding my breath.

Oh wait.... I guess I will.

Rick

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Eugene

In my opinion, your statement illustrates exactly what is wrong with the Israeli lobby in America.

In what respect?

[nmwolfboy]

The folks behind Tikkun Magazine have been spearheading a campaign to get a much ignored American Jewish perspective on the Gaza/Israeli conflict more exposure within the public fora. Unfortunately, their efforts have had to rely on buying ad space in print media, presumably because their perspective is ignored by a corporate media in thrall to the hard-line right Israeli lobby. Whether that's true or not, i do think it important to be cognizant that the issues of Israel/Palestine are not a matter of either/or, black v. white positions.

From Tikkun's appeal:

Cease Fire Now in Gaza!

President-elect Obama:
It’s Time to End the Violence in the Middle East—Once and for All
Convene an International Middle East Peace Conference to facilitate a lasting and just settlement for all parties.
The world’s attention is focused on the Middle East for a fleeting moment. Let’s seize this opportunity to insist on an end to this struggle in all its dimensions.
A Call for Lasting Peace

President-elect Obama: When you become president, please call for an immediate CEASE-FIRE in GAZA and for an International Peace Conference to implement a fair and lasting solution to all aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The solution must also address the conflict between Israel and other states in the region. The international community must stop the violence and terror against Israeli civilians and against Palestinian civilians in Gaza and the West Bank. The international community must also stop the hidden but persistent violence of the Occupation itself.

Read the full appeal here.

[andrewlittle]

Let's see, the toll so far is well over a thousand dead (a reasonable retribution for the less than two dozen Israelis), one hospital destroyed and two others damaged by direct hits, UN headquarters destroyed, a Near East Council of Churches clinic for mothers and babies destroyed, a UN school destroyed killing 40 and who knows how many other atrocities. But it's okay, right? They're our allies.

In the case of the school, the Israeli leaders responded to criticism by saying that the school was "targeted" because it was shielding rocket-firing militants. These militants, evidently, are the same kind of menace as Bush's weapons of mass destruction and about as equally real. Since the international public outcry, the Israelis have investigated and said it wasn't targeted after all but was the result of a stray mortar. We said we meant to hit it, but we were mistaken. I guess the standard answer that militants are using civilian facilities as shields may or may not be accurate - maybe, maybe not, but it's our story and we're sticking to it - as long as we have stray mortar fire to fall back on. Mortar, no less, in an urban environment where the Israelis are pursuing a precision military operation "aimed at minimizing civilian casualties."

Since there is no evidence that white phosphorus is actually being used - well, no credible evidence incontrovertible proof - it seems a little hasty for the UN to be pushing for war crimes investigations. Doesn't US status as untouchable extend to our allies?

Of course, the UN and the hospitals are probably complicit in strapping those bombs on women, children and babies.

[Daniel]

An eye for your family. And a tooth for a city block.

[Eugene]

I disagree. I'm 57 years old and I've been hearing that we're living in the last days for the past 57 years. According to one author, Jesus was supposed to usher in the last days when he returned in 2008.

I've been hearing about it just slightly less years than you've been hearing about it. In 1988, somebody gave me the "88 Reasons Why Jesus Will Return in 1988". Prior to that I went through college expecting every semester to be delivered from final exams by the rapture.

I don't believe in the rapture or Left Behind fairy tales anymore. But I still believe in the end times. It's as deep inside as being gay.

[Unmasked]

Check out http://www.nkusa.org. It's a group of anti-Zionist, Orthodox Jews.

[Here2Learn22]

Originally Posted by Eugene

I am wholeheartedly American. I think it is time the United States stopped involving itself in the conflicts of people who are perpetually at war. And frankly, I don't care about Zionism or anti-Zionism because I have divorced myself from religious sentiment in the matter. I have more cultural sympathy with Jewish people, but my Jewish friends are Americans, not Israelis.



Whatever they were "called", I don't consider Palestinian Arabs to be Canaanites. Canaanites predated Abraham.

All Jews have de facto citizenship with their country and Israel. Washing your hands of a situation and preaching isolationist policy will take the world nowhere.

Do you know what Israeli intelligence is dedicated to doing? They've been calling the phones of different military targets and informing them of possible raids. They tell them to get their women and children out of the area. Do you know what Hamas does? They bring more women and children into the area, allow them to be killed by Israeli mortars, and then blame the Israeli's for the slaughter. I'm not saying that all casualties are Hamas's fault, but this is a tactical conflict carried out in order to destroy an organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and every Jew around the world. Hamas has declared every Jewish person a legitamate target. I'm a terrorist target... How can you victimize a group of people who use human shields?

Whether you believe it or not, the state of Israel is necessary. It is our ultimate safety net.
A place where Jews can go and live among Jews with a Jewish calender, Jewish traditions, and a Jewish community. Anti-Semitism is real and present in every country. It is an accelerating and subtle process, and it has only recently been held back thanks to the establishment of Israel.

[dsdrane]

The New York Times reports on the cease-fire in Gaza. Read the article here.

I'm cautiously optomistic, but, then, we've seen this movie before.

There's one passage I'd like to highlight for those who express so much outrage at the disproportionate response by Israel to the rocket attacks from Gaza:

In a speech broadcast Sunday night on Hamas’s Al Aqsa television, the Hamas leader Ismail Haniya, who has been in hiding for the past three weeks, claimed victory against Israel. He pledged to provide compensation to families who suffered damage during the war.

On Monday, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, called Khaled Meshal, Hamas’s senior exiled leader, in Damascus to tell him that: "Today is the beginning of victory and perseverance will complete the links of victory,” the Iranian IRNA news agency reported.

I would ask critics of Israel: do you think that sworn enemies would hesitate to make good on their promise to destroy Israel? If you agree that there is a very real mortal danger, what exactly would you have Israel do?

[Eugene]

Do you know what Israeli intelligence is dedicated to doing? They've been calling the phones of different military targets and informing them of possible raids. They tell them to get their women and children out of the area. Do you know what Hamas does? They bring more women and children into the area, allow them to be killed by Israeli mortars, and then blame the Israeli's for the slaughter. I'm not saying that all casualties are Hamas's fault, but this is a tactical conflict carried out in order to destroy an organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and every Jew around the world. Hamas has declared every Jewish person a legitamate target. I'm a terrorist target... How can you victimize a group of people who use human shields?

You will excuse me for not taking propaganda from the Israeli government as gospel truth. Just as I don't take propaganda from the United States government as gospel truth. Every government has its own agenda and an interest in presenting itself as blameless when waging war.

What I believe is what is reported in the international media. And it is appalling.

It is a trite saying, but it is true: violence breeds violence. This seems to be just the latest round in a perpetual cycle of Mid East violence. What Israel has done is only going to harden the situation, in my opinion.

You must also excuse me for expressing my opinion as a Christian. There won't be any peace in Israel until the 2nd coming.

[Here2Learn22]

Originally Posted by Eugene

You will excuse me for not taking propaganda from the Israeli government as gospel truth. Just as I don't take propaganda from the United States government as gospel truth. Every government has its own agenda and an interest in presenting itself as blameless when waging war.

What I believe is what is reported in the international media. And it is appalling.

It is a trite saying, but it is true: violence breeds violence. This seems to be just the latest round in a perpetual cycle of Mid East violence. What Israel has done is only going to harden the situation, in my opinion.

You must also excuse me for expressing my opinion as a Christian. There won't be any peace in Israel until the 2nd coming.

I'm not basing my opinion on government propaganda. I know four Israeli's involved in the Israeli government. Two of them are members of Israeli intelligence. I consider these people long time friends, and I've been told that they and several of their peers have called several locations to warn against raids. I believe word of mouth from good friends.

Violence may breed violence, but what else can you expect Israel to do? Hamas is not interested in negotiation. They are not interested in a peaceful world with Israel in it. This is a war for survival, and survival tactics, learned over a period of over 2000 years, are the only thing that will keep the nation of Israel safe.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Eugene

You must also excuse me for expressing my opinion as a Christian. There won't be any peace in Israel until the 2nd coming.

And you must also excuse me for expressing my opinion as a Christian that the residents of Palestine and Israel, the region and the world simply can't wait that long.