We're coming out!

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I wanted to clear something up here. What I should have said above was that I never saw my grandfather angry or unkind. But he was human and humans get angry. I'm sure during his 72 year life that at least once he lost his temper and flew into a rage. We have all done this at one time or another. Anger is a normal human emotion. All of us occasionally get angry whether it's justified or not.

I had an episode of road rage in 2004 that I regret to this day. It came on spontaneously without time for me to even think about it. My point here is, getting angry does not make somebody is a bad person or a bad Christian. It just makes us human.

I just wanted to make that clear.

Rick

I think it's perfectly clear. Gentle, kind people can definitely get angry.
And that's another discussion. Types of anger -- I am sure now that anger comes in 'types.' Has anything ever been written, codified, on this subject?
(And perhaps this should be it's own thread, it this track continues, so we don't get away from the atheist topic.)

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Rick336

It has taken me decades to get to the point where my family, friends, neighbors, and relatives treat me with dignity and respect as an openly gay man. It has not been easy.

So now to say, "Oh by the way, I also don't believe in God," is like going all the way back to square one. I will have to go through the whole "coming out" process all over again.

I hear you. Coming out all over again wouldn't be fun, to put it mildly.

I was thinking how some might respond, that is, those who still have an issue with your being gay. And I can imagine one response might be this.

You don't believe in God because you know in your heart that God doesn't approve of you being gay!

Nasty stuff, of course. The kind of stuff that is designed to put one on the defensive. The remedy? Like the saying goes, I think a good offense is the best defense. But you are right, this takes a great deal of energy, time and commitment.

But you know what? At this time of your life, I don't see that you have to be responsible for how people react- or not. You really don't have to be the educator.

I like the idea of your standing still and letting others do the running around.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I hear you. Coming out all over again wouldn't be fun, to put it mildly.

I was thinking how some might respond, that is, those who still have an issue with your being gay. And I can imagine one response might be this.

You don't believe in God because you know in your heart that God doesn't approve of you being gay!


I thought of that, too. Or in a related vein, "You are gay BECAUSE you've rejected God."


Nasty stuff, of course. The kind of stuff that is designed to put one on the defensive. The remedy? Like the saying goes, I think a good offense is the best defense. But you are right, this takes a great deal of energy, time and commitment.

But you know what? At this time of your life, I don't see that you have to be responsible for how people react- or not. You really don't have to be the educator.

I like the idea of your standing still and letting others do the running around.

Exactly. A strong adult, a 57-year old adult at that, doesn't have to answer to mom and dad, aunts and uncles, and siblings.
Rick, you are your own person. If the family responds to your authenticity (if you go there) by 'running around,' let them. Keep your cool. Stay level and don't get sucked in to their drama. You've earned it.

[antiochian]

There was a time I thought atheists were the most delusional of people. As I've grown over the years, I've come to love them! They (generally) aren't afraid to question, insist on the use of reason, are often strong advocates for human rights causes, and frankly many of them are good and decent people.

Pagans have a similar issue with "coming out of the broom closet," as they say. I've read some articles by gay witches who speak about something similar to what you're going through, Rick. I can surely understand. It was and still is hard to come out as gay. But doing it a second time with regards to my alternative religion and open up the door for further harassment and ostracism? I know my family will never understand, and most of them will never know. My lgbt friends have been supportive, except for one who said he was "worried for me."

You're a great guy in my book, Rick, whether you worship Isis, Jesus, the Good Humor Man, or Nobody!

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Exactly. A strong adult, a 57-year old adult at that, doesn't have to answer to mom and dad, aunts and uncles, and siblings.
Rick, you are your own person. If the family responds to your authenticity (if you go there) by 'running around,' let them. Keep your cool. Stay level and don't get sucked in to their drama. You've earned it.

This is true, but the same problem still comes up... it's not just about doing what you want. It's about the way you will be treated when all is said and done.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

This is true, but the same problem still comes up... it's not just about doing what you want. It's about the way you will be treated when all is said and done.

Which is a different consideration for an independent adult than it is for a young child, a teenager, or a dependent family member (elderly, or disabled and living with the folks in question.)

It's up to Rick what priority he deems more important: the amiable social flow with his family, or expressing himself and sharing that part of himself with them despite the likelihood that it will be fodder for arguments. While there will be an emotional fall-out either way, as a self-sufficient adult, he is not constrained in his decision-making.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Which is a different consideration for an independent adult than it is for a young child, a teenager, or a dependent family member (elderly, or disabled and living with the folks in question.)

It's up to Rick what priority he deems more important: the amiable social flow with his family, or expressing himself and sharing that part of himself with them despite the likelihood that it will be fodder for arguments. While there will be an emotional fall-out either way, as a self-sufficient adult, he is not constrained in his decision-making.

I completely agree! I only mentioned it because it felt to me that the emotional family stuff was kind of being dismissed.

100% Rick's choice.

[Gennee]

Originally Posted by Daniel

That Dawkins has benefitted from the gay rights movement insofar that he is tailoring his message in the way that he is, using the word out. He even takes pains to say that no one will be outed.

Not only that, he is also using imagery from The Scarlet Letter- a big A.

It's kinda like gay people taking back the word queer. However, in this case, its not a word being reimagined, but a symbol.

Dawkins is appealing to those with intellect. After all, the Scarlet Letter is a literary work. If you haven't read the book- and only see the world through TV- you might not understand the reference.

I read the book. It's the second worst book I've read in my life.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

I completely agree! I only mentioned it because it felt to me that the emotional family stuff was kind of being dismissed.

100% Rick's choice.

Ah. I thought we'd gone over and over that.

No, definitely not dismissed, and totally understood. Hubby and I are adults with our own lives and we go over and over things about how much openness to have with our families when we think a subject can run into quarrels or negative feelings.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Gennee

I read the book. It's the second worst book I've read in my life.

Gennee

You realize that was a leading statement. . . ? And now we'll all wait for your #1 worst book vote.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Gennee

I read the book. It's the second worst book I've read in my life.

Dawkin's book? Or the Scarlet Letter?

Like Zerbie, I would love to know what is numero uno.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Now, can I be allowed to encourage you, Rick? You say you're 57 and don't want to feel like you're starting over back at square 1 again. But, consider all that you've learned and all the strengths and skills you've developed in 57 years. I see every reason for you to have confidence to just present yourself as you are, beliefs and all. If other people have difficulty with it, their thoughts are THEIRS, not yours, and the problem is likewise theirs.

It's up to you to gauge whether some surface amiability with your family is more important to you than openly discussing your non-theological views, or whether openly expressing your views is more important to you than having amiable terms with certain members of your family.

Decide which is more important to you. Then go with that choice, recognizing that it was a choice having to do with priority, and accept what goes along with that choice. You can't do more. You can't BOTH express a belief that will make your family go ballistic AND have an amiable surface relationship with them while they are going ballistic. It's one or the other, whether or not you choose to go through a gradual process of letting them come to terms with your belief system, well. . . you'll be 57 either way. You can either be 57 and speak openly with your family (fights, tears, and all) or you can be 57 and keep your views to yourself. You don't have to live up to a perfect example. Just choose your priority.

Yes, it's a decision I will have to make. When I came out of my gay closet I just told them right out "I'm gay." But I think with my atheist views it might be more of a gradual process.

At Thanksgiving before we sit down to eat, we all are asked to say what we are thankful for. When my turn comes around I always say, "I'm thankful to my brother and his wife for fixing this wonderful food." So maybe they are already getting the message.

Rick

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Daniel

But you know what? At this time of your life, I don't see that you have to be responsible for how people react- or not.

Good point. People are responsible for their own emotions and behavior.

Rick

[tdogg]

I'm working with an incredible group of people, of all faiths (including at least 3 atheists. I appreciate everything I'm learning from all. It's a bit ironic, as we are working to reach out to the faith community and try to bridge the gaps between GLBT and faith communities.

I believe atheists have a lot to offer in that capacity. I appreciate their knowledge, experience and points of view. I do not feel they are a threat to my spirituality, rather, they add to it. I'm a better person for having these friends in my life. I cannot imagine, if there is a heaven, the people I love not being there. I cannot wrap my mind around the concept of hell, so perhaps that helps me accept and appreciate my friends and their diversity.

You are brilliant Rick. We don't always agree on every single thing, but your words are thoughtful, thought provoking and on more than one occasion, they have helped me immensely. I hope you know how much you are appreciated and loved. Those who truly love you, will come to understand. I love you and am so very grateful you are here on these forums. I cannot imagine this place without you.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by antiochian

Pagans have a similar issue with "coming out of the broom closet," as they say. I've read some articles by gay witches who speak about something similar to what you're going through, Rick. I can surely understand. It was and still is hard to come out as gay. But doing it a second time with regards to my alternative religion and open up the door for further harassment and ostracism? I know my family will never understand, and most of them will never know. My lgbt friends have been supportive, except for one who said he was "worried for me."

You're a great guy in my book, Rick, whether you worship Isis, Jesus, the Good Humor Man, or Nobody!

Thanks man. Back at you.

I can see where Pagans would get the same negative reaction from some Christians that atheists do. To some Christians, Paganism is synonymous with Satanism. According to some Christians way of thinking, Paganism, Atheism, Hinduism, and Buddhism are all the work of Satan distracting you from Jesus and heaven.

Rick

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I'm working with an incredible group of people, of all faiths (including at least 3 atheists. I appreciate everything I'm learning from all. It's a bit ironic, as we are working to reach out to the faith community and try to bridge the gaps between GLBT and faith communities.

I believe atheists have a lot to offer in that capacity. I appreciate their knowledge, experience and points of view. I do not feel they are a threat to my spirituality, rather, they add to it. I'm a better person for having these friends in my life. I cannot imagine, if there is a heaven, the people I love not being there. I cannot wrap my mind around the concept of hell, so perhaps that helps me accept and appreciate my friends and their diversity.

You are brilliant Rick. We don't always agree on every single thing, but your words are thoughtful, thought provoking and on more than one occasion, they have helped me immensely. I hope you know how much you are appreciated and loved. Those who truly love you, will come to understand. I love you and am so very grateful you are here on these forums. I cannot imagine this place without you.

That was a very kind and loving thing to read. Thank you Tdogg. I'm grateful for your friendship.

Rick

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I can't believe I'm actually writing these words. I've always tried to be a man of courage and conviction. How do I dare talk about courage anymore?

Rick

Courage is not an absense of fear. It is rather the ability to take appropriate action in the face of fear that is courageous. You help and encourage people to be authentic about who and what they are - it can be of life-saving proportions to do that.

To compare the unwillingness, at this point, to be open about what you believe to be true at any point in time is not on the same level.

You, Rick, are authentic about who you are. Okay, so you have reasons you may not want to disclose what you think about religion. One is courageous, the other, since there are really no losers unless you feel you are one, is simply being guarded. Different things, I think.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

You, Rick, are authentic about who you are. Okay, so you have reasons you may not want to disclose what you think about religion. One is courageous, the other, since there are really no losers unless you feel you are one, is simply being guarded. Different things, I think.

It occurred to me reading his post that disclosing one's sexuality is very different than disclosing one's belief about the existence of God.

Telling others that one is gay has nothing to do with another person's belief. Telling another person that one is gay is the disclosure of a fact. The other person either deals with this fact or not.

Belief in God? That is something else entirely. Belief is not a fact, at least, not one that is objective. It can't tell us about itself.

The points of reference are entirely different. And as such, have a very different level of meaning.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Daniel

It occurred to me reading his post that disclosing one's sexuality is very different than disclosing one's belief about the existence of God.

Telling others that one is gay has nothing to do with another person's belief. Telling another person that one is gay is the disclosure of a fact. The other person either deals with this fact or not.

Belief in God? That is something else entirely. Belief is not a fact, at least, not one that is objective. It can't tell us about itself.

The points of reference are entirely different. And as such, have a very different level of meaning.

Wouldn't this make it harder for someone to come out about their beliefs?

While sexuality is what it is, beliefs can be changed.