Responsibility vs. Victim

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

By the way, your suggestion that anyone here should take 100% responsibility for the way LGBT people are treated by conservative churches, a situation that arose centuries ago, and is fueled by a system of repeated lies by those in positions of power who ought to know better, is beyond insulting.

Never mind. Done with this thread, unless it turns out you mean something entirely different from what your words have so far conveyed.

I stand with Alecto. Your post is not empowering. It is unrealistic at best and incredibly insulting at worst. I find I am angry that you would approach a group consisting mainly of gay Christians and feed them a fantasy that if they just took more responsibility then the sheer hatred that has been bred in certain "churches" would magically change.

Someone once told my mom: "don't get mad, get curious."

Ask questions, I think you've misunderstood.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

Someone once told my mom: "don't get mad, get curious."

Ask questions, I think you've misunderstood.

No Jen, I think I misunderstood the first time. What you interpret out of Nate's posts is what I first thought he meant. Then he came back and said we didn't get it. So he has to have meant something other than what you are saying, something other than what I first believed.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Isn't this fascinating...

Notice, for a moment, all of your resistance to taking 100% responsibility for how things go, what people say/do, what people get left with, and the ultimate results of a situation.

Do you hear all the:

• Assessments
• Judgements
• "Killing people off" or "writing them off"

Do you hear the:

• Self righteousness... "I'm right."
• Martyr
• Victim
• "This isn't fair"
• Resignation... "This is just how life is"

Ok, enough noticing...

Get this: Taking responsibility for how situations/conversations/etc. go is LIGHT YEARS from actually being responsible for what other people say/do. We are all solely responsible for what we do/say/etc. If I'm speeding, I get the ticket. This conversation is about "taking responsibility."

The whole concept of taking 100% responsibility for something is:

1. A way of looking at life from a place of power. If you are responsible for the way things have gone up until now, then you can be responsible for how things go in the future.
2. A way of altering how other people hear and see the situation. If you are 100% responsible for a conflict, you're not going to be blaming, judging, etc., the other person. And believe me, other people know when you're doing that. Remember a time when someone was mad at you. They didn't even have to open their mouth before you knew they thought you were wrong. And your likely response was a) to get defensive, b) to start collecting evidence for your point of view, c) to start recruiting others to your point of view. Sometimes, you would begin these processes even BEFORE they opened their mouths. You can actually take a stand that a situation changes without having the other person hear you as making them wrong. THEN, they can actually hear what you are saying... instead of listening to their own voices in their heads planning their defense or getaway.
3. A pathway to action. Try this. Declare that YOU are 100% responsible for the way things have gone in an area of your life. Then, declare that you are 100% responsible for that things will go a certain way (ex: love & compassion in a relationship) from now on. If you really take that on and get present to it, you should start seeing all kinds of different things you could do or say to have what you are committed to actually happen. Then all there is to do is to get in action.

My 2 cents.

If may be a matter of style over content, but the use of the word YOU in this post is off-putting. Why?

It's impolite to instruct others when they are not- in fact- one's students.

My opinion is that this is asking for trouble. And boy. I should know. I've gotten into a fair amount of trouble trying to instruct others on this site.

My sense is that it is always better on a forum like this to stick to one's feeling and experiences.

There is a saying in the East: When the student is ready, the teacher will show up. It would be an entirely different thing if it read: When the teacher is ready the student will show up.

And even though I am a teacher in my chosen field, I would rather see myself as a student. I learn far more that way. And I don't have to be right. I just have to give what I have.

[NathanATX]

Thank you all for the feedback and the straight communication.

I've started a conversation about a topic that I am only recently beginning to get my own head around and have been trying to write about it as if I were the expert. (I am so freakin' quick to do/say something that will maybe make me look good/sound smart. )

Zerbie, I'll take a step back and rethink how I set this conversation up and what I left out or inserted that left you feeling frustrated.

Daniel, I see how the language I used elevated me to some imaginary pedestal and came across as "smarter than" or "being right" about the whole thing.

My intention was to invite fellow members to consider a new perspective, to "try something on" as if it were real, and then to see if that made a difference when dealing with a difficult situation/person... hopefully leaving the readers more empowered, more peaceful, and ultimately more effective in creating "the beloved community."

I am clear I haven't yet fulfilled on that intention...

Let me spend some time thinking about this and then recreate this conversation or possibly dismiss it.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

My intention was to invite fellow members to consider a new perspective, to "try something on" as if it were real, and then to see if that made a difference when dealing with a difficult situation/person... hopefully leaving the readers more empowered, more peaceful, and ultimately more effective in creating "the beloved community."

I am clear I haven't yet fulfilled on that intention...

Let me spend some time thinking about this and then recreate this conversation or possibly dismiss it.

Please don't just dismiss this conversation. In my opinion, this is a valuable conversation to have. On a personal level, I think everyone could gain something from this way of thinking.

I will try to keep this idea of 100% responsibility in mind that next time I am faced with a challenging situation.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by Daniel

And even though I am a teacher in my chosen field, I would rather see myself as a student. I learn far more that way. And I don't have to be right. I just have to give what I have.

That's a great way to look at it Daniel. There was an old, wise and very experienced ancient horseman (I believe he is long gone from the earth) that said, it could have been an ancient greek horseman, cannot recall. His philosophy was, that the most experience horseman in the world has much to learn. It goes along with, the person who thinks they know it all, ceases to learn anything else.

In regards to this conversation, I believe that we can only take responsibilty for ourselves, our actions (or lack thereof) and our words. When we don't act responsibly towards other people, then we can cause hurt but that's our responsibilty. I personally am not sure placing blame is helpful (perhaps I would disagree in regards to criminal and civil issues), rather learning from our mistakes and keying in on what we've done right is more helpful in progressing. If we screw up, take responsibilty, make things right and get on with life. If someone else screws up, take responsibility for any part we may have in it, be proactive in making it right if and to the extend possible, and get on with life.

We waste much time when trying to place blame instead of moving forward.