Soulforce Forums Suggestion Box

[NathanATX]

Do you have an idea for the Soulforce Forums? Post it here!

What features would you like to see?

What would build community? be fun? further the mission of Soulforce?

Thanks for the feedback!

[Jennifer5]

One thing I've always thought was unfortunate was that the emails that go out from Soulforce, don't mention these forums. Many of Soulforce's strongest supports will read the email, but not explore the site. I think it's unfortunate because I feel like a lot more people would join if they were aware of us.

Probably not much you can do about that. Also probably not the kind of idea you were after, but that's all I've got at the moment.

[awediot]

...hooooboy. As much as I believe in the fight of "Freedom for lgbt people from religious & political oppression...", and being a passivist at heart makes the principle of "relentless, non-violent resistance" second nature to me, I find SoulForce to be almost exclusively deconstructionist in it's ecumenical, maybe pantheistic perspective... Ghandi and King each firmly held to completely incompatible beliefs about each others "religion"... They had civil activism in common, and that's about it... SoulForce seems geared to oppose and defend against it's percieved adversaries by undermining their system of beliefs and vulnerable faith, but I see no cohesion of thought as to what to do next to build people back up. -We're all operating under the belief we do what we do for both our own well being and sanity, as well as out of love and concern for humanity as a whole, so world peace is a rather worn out incentive these days...

What will SF's role be 5-10 years from now when we can marry and force people to outwardly treat us as equals under the law? I know what "you" want people to stop doing to us gays, but what do you want them to DO instead? - Mel White, MLK (and the very Name of this place), presents an implication of being grounded in "Christianity", with a liberal nod to the metaphysical peace makers of other faiths... That was my initial impression, but I've seen -Xtianity treated like, and spoken of in the same way Christians treat and speak of us... Can we only "win" by turning the tables of oppression on our oppressors, in a relentlessly, in your face passive way?

I know what SF stands against; I just have no idea what it stands for... It's ludicrous to suggest "you guys" figure it out, but it is at the core of any constructive criticism I could offer. I think it is why the interest in this organization is waning so much... You'll subvert the need for you if/when you are successful, and we can just get back to arguing about "God" and Johnny still being unable to read... I fear for those gays who's identity and purpose has formed around this fight. What next when they really are used to us and no one cares anymore?

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by awediot

I know what SF stands against; I just have no idea what it stands for... It's ludicrous to suggest "you guys" figure it out, but it is at the core of any constructive criticism I could offer. I think it is why the interest in this organization is waning so much... You'll subvert the need for you if/when you are successful, and we can just get back to arguing about "God" and Johnny still being unable to read... I fear for those gays who's identity and purpose has formed around this fight. What next when they really are used to us and no one cares anymore?

What does Soulforce stand for? Love.

It's not just an organization, it's a cause and it's a community. Real people, real feelings, real problems, real stories, and here real relationships have been created. Lives are literally saved daily because of the things such as the equality ride and Mel White's books. Even more lives are improved because of they know that there is love and support out there for them. When these things happen, it doesn't much matter what the organization is doing 5 years from now if the fights are over. When GLBT people have equal rights, Soulforce can be a part of history or perhaps they'll adopt a new cause.

...but you're back, something drew you back to this site, so I'm guessing that in your heart you probably agree with me.

[tdogg]

I can see Soulforce working to end religious oppression of GLBT people on a global basis. So yes, when we have full equality here in the USA, which I believe will actually take a long time, then more effort can be put towards gaining equality in other nations.

Meanwhile, there will always be a need for people to come and share, talk and debate, encourage and be encouraged. Don't you think?

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by awediot

...hooooboy. As much as I believe in the fight of "Freedom for lgbt people from religious & political oppression...", and being a passivist at heart makes the principle of "relentless, non-violent resistance" second nature to me, I find SoulForce to be almost exclusively deconstructionist in it's ecumenical, maybe pantheistic perspective... Ghandi and King each firmly held to completely incompatible beliefs about each others "religion"... They had civil activism in common, and that's about it... SoulForce seems geared to oppose and defend against it's percieved adversaries by undermining their system of beliefs and vulnerable faith, but I see no cohesion of thought as to what to do next to build people back up. -We're all operating under the belief we do what we do for both our own well being and sanity, as well as out of love and concern for humanity as a whole, so world peace is a rather worn out incentive these days...

Are you aware of Dr. King's visit to India fifty years ago? Have you ever read a biography about him? How about he and Loretta's visit to Jamaica laying a wreath at the shrine of Marcus Garvey in Kingston? (Who actually wasn't Christian either.)

What will SF's role be 5-10 years from now when we can marry and force people to outwardly treat us as equals under the law? I know what "you" want people to stop doing to us gays, but what do you want them to DO instead? - Mel White, MLK (and the very Name of this place), presents an implication of being grounded in "Christianity", with a liberal nod to the metaphysical peace makers of other faiths... That was my initial impression, but I've seen -Xtianity treated like, and spoken of in the same way Christians treat and speak of us... Can we only "win" by turning the tables of oppression on our oppressors, in a relentlessly, in your face passive way?

I know what SF stands against; I just have no idea what it stands for... It's ludicrous to suggest "you guys" figure it out, but it is at the core of any constructive criticism I could offer. I think it is why the interest in this organization is waning so much... You'll subvert the need for you if/when you are successful, and we can just get back to arguing about "God" and Johnny still being unable to read... I fear for those gays who's identity and purpose has formed around this fight. What next when they really are used to us and no one cares anymore?

Have you read the Soulforce Vision Statement? It doesn't mention being grounded in Christianity. It certainly doesn't mention any exclusivity. Where is the implication of Christianity?

Ben N. Moore

[awediot]

Hey Jen... You leave Vegas a little money left ... Good to hear from you...

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

What does Soulforce stand for? Love.

Man I'm getting jaded...but, so what? So do it's greatest foes...

"Love", and doing things in it's name, isn't the all purpose silver bullet that automatically softens the blows it alone is capable of delivering square into the heart... I must wonder how some gays will handle the coerced respect others are legally required to demonstrate, if the personal acceptance doesn't naturally accompany it...Or, when our war cry to "...Get used to it!" finally works, and people are used to us...and we've got no boogy man to blame our problems on any more. Some of us have healed to the point where can milk our victimization and have integrated victimhood into our normal justifications for why we are so screwed up.

It's a bass ackward comfort being able to blame the freaky, cloistered and megalomaniacal influence of "THE CHURCH" for doing a number on us. -This isn't to say the damage is not real, but at least it is a familiar and easy target... What when people truly no longer care, and get tired of the whining?

It's not just an organization, it's a cause and it's a community. Real people, real feelings, real problems, real stories, and here real relationships have been created. Lives are literally saved daily because of the things such as the equality ride and Mel White's books. Even more lives are improved because of they know that there is love and support out there for them. When these things happen, it doesn't much matter what the organization is doing 5 years from now if the fights are over. When GLBT people have equal rights, Soulforce can be a part of history or perhaps they'll adopt a new cause.

I can't imagine what having access to the internet and groups like SoulForce could have done for, and to me when I was going insane as a torn apart, teen believer who loved oh so wrongly. A supportive, nurturing and edifying community like this is invaluable to those who need a sanctuary and protected escape for awhile... I am thrilled people have a place like this to come to...

-having said that, I have to say that the shear motive to just love and support a person, is a sweet premise of needed compassion, but it is incomplete and can be shallow to an even greater fault... If a friend comes to you crying about a hurt they have blatantly brought on them self by their stupid and selfish pattern of actions they refuse to admit to, then it may only enable them to continue shamelessly, if we make them feel good about their lousy behavior... Some people SHOULD hurt and feel like dirt for what they do... It is this follow-up philosophy which teaches people to handle and avoid painful realities, that I am curious about SF's stance on.

As a wounded community who has earned some wound licking time, we are pretty bad at self-criticism. As gay people who've experienced a level of rejection and worthlessness no straight person could understand, the want to almost impose "love" onto a society who would only benefit from it is normal... But as just people, we know no one is really helped by being coddled and blindly propped back up to feeling good enough to go do the exact same crap that will just hurt them again and again... We need to let people know they are loved and respected, and hoped the best for, and that they will be called on their bs like a "regular" person, despite being an oppressed and bashed on queer who may find secular normalcy and acceptance doesn't pump up the esteem as much as we hoped it would...

Then what?

...but you're back, something drew you back to this site, so I'm guessing that in your heart you probably agree with me.

Yes and no... I'm as concerned with what gay activism does in my associative name, as I am with what Christians do for the same reason... As both, I do understand the Christian warning that getting ourselves embraced and validated by society is no substitute for being sure we are right with God. As melodramatic and pious as it sounds, my concern lies more with the state of the human being who seeks this place out, than whether their temporary boost of status in a sick world will make gay A-okAY.

We can legally enforce equal treatment when it comes to civil rights. We cannot make people accept or respect us as equals... I fear that many are hinging their self-worth on getting some laws passed, erroneously expecting that to transfer into some change in the hearts which will just keep thinking the abominations are at the gate and taking over the country... Our fight is a noble and just one, but after the celebration, and gay couples must now examine whether or not they really want to marry their current partner, since the law is no longer an excuse, we will at best be invited back aboard a sinking ship... That day will have been worth it if we can keep some perspective on it. It will grant us the same benefits, responsibility, and right to the red tape as the rest of the world is privileged to have to cope with. It won't make us actually be, or feel more loved for long...

I don't want nor have any reason to burst bubbles, and assume the struggle will pay off within a decade at the latest...But I am compelled to deflate a few now, as they have built up some outrageous expectations that no mere new rule could ever fulfill, and they are setting themselves up for an anti-climactic fall... I hope and pray SF is not feeding into that delusion by pinning too much on shifting policies that no one should mistake for a little salvation. Some may find that their problems are far larger than what the umbrella of human rights can heal.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by awediot

Hey Jen... You leave Vegas a little money left ... Good to hear from you...




Man I'm getting jaded...but, so what? So do it's greatest foes...

"Love", and doing things in it's name, isn't the all purpose silver bullet that automatically softens the blows it alone is capable of delivering square into the heart... I must wonder how some gays will handle the coerced respect others are legally required to demonstrate, if the personal acceptance doesn't naturally accompany it...Or, when our war cry to "...Get used to it!" finally works, and people are used to us...and we've got no boogy man to blame our problems on any more. Some of us have healed to the point where can milk our victimization and have integrated victimhood into our normal justifications for why we are so screwed up.

It's a bass ackward comfort being able to blame the freaky, cloistered and megalomaniacal influence of "THE CHURCH" for doing a number on us. -This isn't to say the damage is not real, but at least it is a familiar and easy target... What when people truly no longer care, and get tired of the whining?



I can't imagine what having access to the internet and groups like SoulForce could have done for, and to me when I was going insane as a torn apart, teen believer who loved oh so wrongly. A supportive, nurturing and edifying community like this is invaluable to those who need a sanctuary and protected escape for awhile... I am thrilled people have a place like this to come to...

-having said that, I have to say that the shear motive to just love and support a person, is a sweet premise of needed compassion, but it is incomplete and can be shallow to an even greater fault... If a friend comes to you crying about a hurt they have blatantly brought on them self by their stupid and selfish pattern of actions they refuse to admit to, then it may only enable them to continue shamelessly, if we make them feel good about their lousy behavior... Some people SHOULD hurt and feel like dirt for what they do... It is this follow-up philosophy which teaches people to handle and avoid painful realities, that I am curious about SF's stance on.

As a wounded community who has earned some wound licking time, we are pretty bad at self-criticism. As gay people who've experienced a level of rejection and worthlessness no straight person could understand, the want to almost impose "love" onto a society who would only benefit from it is normal... But as just people, we know no one is really helped by being coddled and blindly propped back up to feeling good enough to go do the exact same crap that will just hurt them again and again... We need to let people know they are loved and respected, and hoped the best for, and that they will be called on their bs like a "regular" person, despite being an oppressed and bashed on queer who may find secular normalcy and acceptance doesn't pump up the esteem as much as we hoped it would...

Then what?



Yes and no... I'm as concerned with what gay activism does in my associative name, as I am with what Christians do for the same reason... As both, I do understand the Christian warning that getting ourselves embraced and validated by society is no substitute for being sure we are right with God. As melodramatic and pious as it sounds, my concern lies more with the state of the human being who seeks this place out, than whether their temporary boost of status in a sick world will make gay A-okAY.

We can legally enforce equal treatment when it comes to civil rights. We cannot make people accept or respect us as equals... I fear that many are hinging their self-worth on getting some laws passed, erroneously expecting that to transfer into some change in the hearts which will just keep thinking the abominations are at the gate and taking over the country... Our fight is a noble and just one, but after the celebration, and gay couples must now examine whether or not they really want to marry their current partner, since the law is no longer an excuse, we will at best be invited back aboard a sinking ship... That day will have been worth it if we can keep some perspective on it. It will grant us the same benefits, responsibility, and right to the red tape as the rest of the world is privileged to have to cope with. It won't make us actually be, or feel more loved for long...

I don't want nor have any reason to burst bubbles, and assume the struggle will pay off within a decade at the latest...But I am compelled to deflate a few now, as they have built up some outrageous expectations that no mere new rule could ever fulfill, and they are setting themselves up for an anti-climactic fall... I hope and pray SF is not feeding into that delusion by pinning too much on shifting policies that no one should mistake for a little salvation. Some may find that their problems are far larger than what the umbrella of human rights can heal.

It sounds like you're questioning the "God's okay with you being gay" thing, and that's a whole different discussion.

As for Nathan's question, I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those.

[Alecto]

Social networking is the new black, Matt?

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

It sounds like you're questioning the "God's okay with you being gay" thing, and that's a whole different discussion.

I resolved that a long time ago... I'm just another sinner who's spouting off about those who don't even care anymore what God thinks, and if that is good enough for SF as long as we get our stamp of approval from man.

As for Nathan's question, I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those.

Yeah, lets make it even quicker, easier to direct and less personal... tweet tweet...

[awediot]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

Are you aware of Dr. King's visit to India fifty years ago? Have you ever read a biography about him? How about he and Loretta's visit to Jamaica laying a wreath at the shrine of Marcus Garvey in Kingston? (Who actually wasn't Christian either.)

His reputation as a Christian preacher proceeded him. Some would argue in reality he wasn't... I don't know.

Have you read the Soulforce Vision Statement? It doesn't mention being grounded in Christianity. It certainly doesn't mention any exclusivity. Where is the implication of Christianity?

Ben N. Moore

The use of MLK's image and his reputation, the usual association to "Christianity" when "religious oppression" is mentioned, Mel Whites own concerns... Perhaps it is seen more as the enemy here?

[awediot]

Originally Posted by tdogg

I can see Soulforce working to end religious oppression of GLBT people on a global basis. So yes, when we have full equality here in the USA, which I believe will actually take a long time, then more effort can be put towards gaining equality in other nations.

Exactly how do you think people here are defining that "equality"?

Meanwhile, there will always be a need for people to come and share, talk and debate, encourage and be encouraged. Don't you think?

I don't know... Matt A. said "I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those."

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by awediot

Hey Jen... You leave Vegas a little money left ... Good to hear from you...

Man I'm getting jaded...but, so what? So do it's greatest foes...

We can legally enforce equal treatment when it comes to civil rights. We cannot make people accept or respect us as equals... I fear that many are hinging their self-worth on getting some laws passed, erroneously expecting that to transfer into some change in the hearts which will just keep thinking the abominations are at the gate and taking over the country... Our fight is a noble and just one, but after the celebration, and gay couples must now examine whether or not they really want to marry their current partner, since the law is no longer an excuse, we will at best be invited back aboard a sinking ship... That day will have been worth it if we can keep some perspective on it. It will grant us the same benefits, responsibility, and right to the red tape as the rest of the world is privileged to have to cope with. It won't make us actually be, or feel more loved for long...

I don't want nor have any reason to burst bubbles, and assume the struggle will pay off within a decade at the latest...But I am compelled to deflate a few now, as they have built up some outrageous expectations that no mere new rule could ever fulfill, and they are setting themselves up for an anti-climactic fall... I hope and pray SF is not feeding into that delusion by pinning too much on shifting policies that no one should mistake for a little salvation. Some may find that their problems are far larger than what the umbrella of human rights can heal.

Boy I've missed you! Vegas didn't get any money from me, I went empty handed... and the gambling age is 21 in NV. Anyway...

Yeah, you're a little jaded if you're about to underestimate the power of a loving community. Love is all there really is in this world, it's the only thing that will ever bring true happiness.

Perhaps you're right, there may be a handful of people out there that are blaming their lack of rights for all of their problems. Those people might want to talk to a therapist because they have bigger things to deal with.

From what I see though, most people are not asking for the law to tell them they can love someone, we're asking for the commitment that allows use to stand by our loved one's sides no matter what and take care of them. The legal right to marry brings a lot of benefits and a lot of responsibilities. People want the commitment that makes them work things out in those moments when we want to walk away. Without a legal tie, it's too easy to walk away. With children, it's easier to adopt if you are married and if you do split, there is protection for those kids. Changing the laws and changing hearts are two different battles.

As for changing hearts, we can't force anything. If you could force love it wouldn't be what it is. What you can do is increase awareness and hope that those who hate will realize that there is nothing to hate. Hearts change over time.

Originally Posted by Matt Algren

It sounds like you're questioning the "God's okay with you being gay" thing, and that's a whole different discussion.

As for Nathan's question, I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those.

Awe is a little off topic, but not really because he's talking about the way the forums affect the community and some concerns he has regarding certain things.

Shut it down? I called that going one step forward, two steps back. I think these forums have a lot to offer and by just being here people can benefit from them. When someone needs them just send out that cry for support and they come back to life for a while.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by Alecto

Social networking is the new black, Matt?

No, no. Social networking is the new gay. Gay was the new black. Before that, it was, I don't know, gingers.

Originally Posted by awediot

I resolved that a long time ago... I'm just another sinner who's spouting off about those who don't even care anymore what God thinks, and if that is good enough for SF as long as we get our stamp of approval from man.

I have no idea what you're on about. I'm okay with that, since I'm pretty sure you're just trying to get a rise.

Yeah, lets make it even quicker, easier to direct and less personal... tweet tweet...

I didn't mention twitter, and that's not what I was talking about. Twitter is certainly no replacement for complex philosophical discourse, but it's a good tool for getting the word out if you use it right.

Originally Posted by awediot

I don't know... Matt A. said "I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those."

You'll notice that I didn't say anything about stopping people from sharing, talking, debating, encouraging, and being encouraged.

[BruceChris]

I get enough time to compose something that makes sense, to me at least. Yet I feel that I've gotten close to some pretty nice people, and most of them/you keep coming back. And we could always use more postings.

Namaste', Bruce Chris

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by tdogg

.......there will always be a need for people to come and share, talk and debate, encourage and be encouraged. Don't you think?

I agree. After all, isn't that what a public forum is about? Sharing ideas, debating issues, and talking about current events.

Rick

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by awediot

The use of MLK's image and his reputation, the usual association to "Christianity" when "religious oppression" is mentioned, Mel Whites own concerns... Perhaps it is seen more as the enemy here?

What I meant was there was no mention of Christianity in the Vision Statement or any of the Credos on the 4 Steps page. I know very little about Mel White. I was under the impression that Soulforce was interfaith mostly from the way the Credos were worded. Gandhi's image is also on the home page.

Also it seems that the majority of replies I've gotten to my posts were from people of other faiths or paths.

As far as religious oppression goes I have no reason to be in denial about where it's coming from in the USA.

Ben N. Moore

[awediot]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

What I meant was there was no mention of Christianity in the Vision Statement or any of the Credos on the 4 Steps page. I know very little about Mel White. I was under the impression that Soulforce was interfaith mostly from the way the Credos were worded. Gandhi's image is also on the home page.

Also it seems that the majority of replies I've gotten to my posts were from people of other faiths or paths.

As far as religious oppression goes I have no reason to be in denial about where it's coming from in the USA.

Ben N. Moore

Where? ...

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

What I meant was there was no mention of Christianity in the Vision Statement or any of the Credos on the 4 Steps page. I know very little about Mel White. I was under the impression that Soulforce was interfaith mostly from the way the Credos were worded. Gandhi's image is also on the home page.

Also it seems that the majority of replies I've gotten to my posts were from people of other faiths or paths.

As far as religious oppression goes I have no reason to be in denial about where it's coming from in the USA.

Ben N. Moore

Yes, this site welcomes people with all different faiths and while Soulforce I believe holds christian values, it is not christian.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

Yes, this site welcomes people with all different faiths and while Soulforce I believe holds christian values, it is not christian.

Is it anti-Christian?