The Difference of Gay Discrimination

[awediot]

The thing that makes our fight for rights and respect, equality and to be treated just like any other sinner, is that we pose a moral conflict because exactly where our "choice" comes into play is unclear (even to many of us). Women, blacks, foreigners, short, disabled and challenged people, do not have any say in the characteristic which they have been discriminated for... There is no moral uncertainty about them.

The same is not true of us... A black person has never been kicked out of their home when their parents discovered their African heritage...

Now, WE know we were never even presented with a choice of which gender we prefer to be attracted to (bisexuals excluded). But unless you're in our shoes, THEY do not know this (though more Christians are coming around to understanding that we didn't choose this life and that a gay orientation is not inherently sinful)...That BEING gay, and DOING gay things, gets blurry even to us, isn't helped by the slippery reality that people can indeed choose to DO gay things and self-identify as a homosexual who chose it (though it is probably an experimental or rebellious phase) None of these overlapping complications effected the civil rights struggle of other minorities...


Generally, we can discriminate against those who have chosen their "group" which sets them apart as a minority. We can and do, and sometimes should be leery and discriminating toward certain religions, belief systems and chosen activities... But it is unacceptable to be so toward those who have no "CHOICE" in the cards God has dealt them...(that word again)

These are things even we as a community who are living them, debate and disagree over... We need to admit and address the confusion it is causing those who can only speculate about just what is going on in our minds... It'd help if we knew for sure.

[Alecto]

I disagree wholeheartedly. I think the argument over choice is the biggest red-herring ever, and that we the gay community have swallowed it whole.
It's a religious rule that for one season, Catholics don't eat meat on Fridays. Some people think it's wrong to do so, immoral even because it goes against what God wants. Which is fine and dandy, but there's no LAWS enforcing that. Furthermore, I think there's very few acceptable times (and that it's not entirely acceptable to society as well) to discriminate against people of other religions.
Ultimately, like religion, even if my sexuality were a choice (it isn't for me, but I think it's arrogant of me to say that it isn't for anyone), it's a choice I should be allowed to make.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Alecto

I disagree wholeheartedly. I think the argument over choice is the biggest red-herring ever, and that we the gay community have swallowed it whole.
It's a religious rule that for one season, Catholics don't eat meat on Fridays. Some people think it's wrong to do so, immoral even because it goes against what God wants. Which is fine and dandy, but there's no LAWS enforcing that. Furthermore, I think there's very few acceptable times (and that it's not entirely acceptable to society as well) to discriminate against people of other religions.
Ultimately, like religion, even if my sexuality were a choice (it isn't for me, but I think it's arrogant of me to say that it isn't for anyone), it's a choice I should be allowed to make.

You are allowed to make such a choice (theoretically). Why aren't people allowed to respond to it as they see fit?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

...That BEING gay, and DOING gay things, gets blurry even to us.....

I agree. I used to think that any man who puts white carpet in his home is definitely gay.

But then I met a straight guy who had white carpet in his home and reality became very blurry. So blurry in fact, that I tripped over his toy poodle and spilled beer on his Judy Garland DVD collection. His scream broke glass.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I agree. I used to think that any man who puts white carpet in his home is definitely gay.

But then I met a straight guy who had white carpet in his home and reality became very blurry. So blurry in fact, that I tripped over his toy poodle and spilled beer on his Judy Garland DVD collection. His scream broke glass.

Rick

Indeed... He did not choose to prefer white carpet, but he did decide to put it in...

[Gennee]

Preconceived notions often does lead to misunderstanding and confusion. I remember that if you wore pink or purple you were considered gay, even if you were not. I wear both colors because I like them.

I didn't have a choice of being born transgender. However, I did have a choice as to whether to accept or deny that I was transgender. Choice also involves risk and consequences. I may lose friends, opportunities, suffer ridicule, and be vilified-all things I have no control over. I do have a choice as whether or not I want to be a victim (which I'm not) or brow beaten into submission (which I refuse). Thirty seven years ago I had the choice as to whether or not to let Jesus come into my life (I choose to let him). Whatever choice I made there would have been consequences.

In my mind, no one has the right to determine how someone else should live. I have spent the past year or two encouraging folks who feel defeated or beaten down or confused or whatever. I have experienced discrimination and seen other be discriminated against. This is something I do not tolerate.

Gennee

[Alecto]

Originally Posted by awediot

You are allowed to make such a choice (theoretically). Why aren't people allowed to respond to it as they see fit?

Evidently, I'm not allowed to make that choice and still be eligible for employment, or housing. And, I'll remind you, it was only 2001 that the supreme court said that I did in fact have that choice. It's not just taken for granted that I am allowed; theoretically speaking, it's a recent development, and the more people are allowed to push us to the fringes, the more they'll fight to take that away again too.

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by Gennee

Preconceived notions often does lead to misunderstanding and confusion. I remember that if you wore pink or purple you were considered gay, even if you were not. I wear both colors because I like them.
Gennee

I feel that. I'm very fair skinned (Irish Ancestry). I seem to get more compliments when I wear pastels. I don't look as pale. Love the lavender and pink.

Ben N. Moore

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Gennee

Preconceived notions often does lead to misunderstanding and confusion. I remember that if you wore pink or purple you were considered gay, even if you were not. I wear both colors because I like them.

I didn't have a choice of being born transgender. However, I did have a choice as to whether to accept or deny that I was transgender. Choice also involves risk and consequences. I may lose friends, opportunities, suffer ridicule, and be vilified-all things I have no control over. I do have a choice as whether or not I want to be a victim (which I'm not) or brow beaten into submission (which I refuse). Thirty seven years ago I had the choice as to whether or not to let Jesus come into my life (I choose to let him). Whatever choice I made there would have been consequences.

In my mind, no one has the right to determine how someone else should live. I have spent the past year or two encouraging folks who feel defeated or beaten down or confused or whatever. I have experienced discrimination and seen other be discriminated against. This is something I do not tolerate.

Gennee

Do you tolerate discrimination against those who discriminate? White supremacist? Child molesters? Rapists? Does society at large have a right to either determine how they live and conduct themselves, or a duty to lock them up for the greater good?

Discrimination is not an evil concept in itself. How it plays out may or may not be. We can't just chuck the whole shebang. It is unrealistic and quite impossible.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Alecto

Evidently, I'm not allowed to make that choice and still be eligible for employment, or housing. And, I'll remind you, it was only 2001 that the supreme court said that I did in fact have that choice. It's not just taken for granted that I am allowed; theoretically speaking, it's a recent development, and the more people are allowed to push us to the fringes, the more they'll fight to take that away again too.

When have people ever been unable to choose to do gay things?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

Do you tolerate discrimination against those who discriminate? White supremacist? Child molesters? Rapists? Does society at large have a right to either determine how they live and conduct themselves, or a duty to lock them up for the greater good?

Of course society has a right to determine how the above groups conduct their lives if that conduct takes advantage of the innocent. It's not a matter of discrimination. It's a matter of protecting society. That's why we have laws against hate crime violence, child molestation, and rape.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Of course society has a right to determine how the above groups conduct their lives if that conduct takes advantage of the innocent. It's not a matter of discrimination. It's a matter of protecting society. That's why we have laws against hate crime violence, child molestation, and rape.

Rick

If you choose not to hire an otherwise qualified kkk member, that is discrimination.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

If you choose not to hire an otherwise qualified kkk member, that is discrimination.

If the particular KKK group that this applicant was a member of had a history of promoting violence against minorities, then his employment may be a risk to his minority co-workers.

If not, and he had a clean record and was better qualified than the other applicants, I see no reason to discriminate.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

If the particular KKK group that this applicant was a member of had a history of promoting violence against minorities, then his employment may be a risk to his minority co-workers.

If not, and he had a clean record and was better qualified than the other applicants, I see no reason to discriminate.

Rick

He's a luke warm supremacist who hates blacks, Jews and queers, but treats them decently enough to "pass", and is waiting for God to wipe them out... Would you hire him?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

He's a luke warm supremacist who hates blacks, Jews and queers, but treats them decently enough to "pass", and is waiting for God to wipe them out... Would you hire him?

If he was a hard worker, showed up on time every day, didn't miss a lot of work, didn't steal supplies, was respectful to his co-workers......then yes.

Keep in mind that your description fits about a quarter of the US population.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

If he was a hard worker, showed up on time every day, didn't miss a lot of work, didn't steal supplies, was respectful to his co-workers......then yes.

Rick

Then you are a better man than I. I wouldn't hire an open and proud bigot because I find their personal philosophy rather vile and would not want to expose my other employees and customers to it, nor give the impression I support it...but to each their own.

Would you hire someone who preached gays were sinners and opposed gay marriage off the clock?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

Would you hire someone who preached gays were sinners and opposed gay marriage off the clock?

If I didn't then I would be as much of a bigot as he was.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

If I didn't then I would be as much of a bigot as he was.

Rick

So honestly, you would hire some one who stands for everything you are fighting and oppose? You would pay their way?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by awediot

So honestly, you would hire some one who stands for everything you are fighting and oppose? You would pay their way?

Yes. That's what fairness and equality is all about.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Yes. That's what fairness and equality is all about.

Rick

Then why gripe? If they've as much right to push their moral laws as you do, and you support them equally, what ground do you have to stand on to claim you are right?

There are certain "types" of people I'd not only NEVER support or hire, but actively oppose...That is life in this imperfect world.