Violence

[awediot]

How do you define the violence that is forbidden?

[drobs]

This is a tag. I'm not a violent person. I have never been in a fight and have always been able to walk away from fights when they arose. However, I do believe in self defense and self preservation..

[RedneckDyke]

There is a movie called Freedom Song that is about the civil rights movement. A guy in it says "I practice non-violence as a political strategy because it works but in my personal life if you hurt me I'll beat you like a rented mule" That about sums up what I feel.

I believe in non-violent political struggle but if someone attacks my home or family they will meet Mr Mossberg or Mr Marlin.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by drobs

This is a tag. I'm not a violent person. I have never been in a fight and have always been able to walk away from fights when they arose. However, I do believe in self defense and self preservation..

Originally Posted by RedneckDyke

There is a movie called Freedom Song that is about the civil rights movement. A guy in it says "I practice non-violence as a political strategy because it works but in my personal life if you hurt me I'll beat you like a rented mule" That about sums up what I feel.

I believe in non-violent political struggle but if someone attacks my home or family they will meet Mr Mossberg or Mr Marlin.

So self defense, or defending from an attack on a loved one or "sanctuary", is the line... Does that include verbal attacks, or laws and policy's that can crush self-worth and esteem without actually laying a hand on the person, but hurt just as bad?

[drobs]

Originally Posted by awediot

So self defense, or defending from an attack on a loved one or "sanctuary", is the line... Does that include verbal attacks, or laws and policy's that can crush self-worth and esteem without actually laying a hand on the person, but hurt just as bad?

Verbal attacks I can deal with. Either by walking away or by attacking back verbally. Political is an on going struggle. I work to change what I can or get behind a group that does the same.

I controll my own self-worth and self-esteem. To quote an old Saturday Night Live skit... "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like me." Let me add to that, if people don't like me... tough sh......t.

What it really comes down to in life is that you choose your friends & your associates. If someone is hurting you emotionally, don't associate with them or limit your contact with them.

There times you are stuck with people -- work or family. You can still be courteous to them but you need to limit their effect on your emotions.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by drobs

I control my own self-worth and self-esteem.

Rick

[awediot]

Originally Posted by drobs

There times you are stuck with people -- work or family. You can still be courteous to them but you need to limit their effect on your emotions.

There are LOTS of times...

When the effort to change the world is slow, or fails...or just makes things worse, how do we "limit their effect" on our emotional well being without doing to them what they are doing to us?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by drobs

Verbal attacks I can deal with. Either by walking away or by attacking back verbally. Political is an on going struggle. I work to change what I can or get behind a group that does the same.

I controll my own self-worth and self-esteem. To quote an old Saturday Night Live skit... "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like me." Let me add to that, if people don't like me... tough sh......t.

What it really comes down to in life is that you choose your friends & your associates. If someone is hurting you emotionally, don't associate with them or limit your contact with them.

There times you are stuck with people -- work or family. You can still be courteous to them but you need to limit their effect on your emotions.

Very well said.

Reminds me of the phrase: we teach people how to treat us.

[drobs]

Originally Posted by awediot

There are LOTS of times...

When the effort to change the world is slow, or fails...or just makes things worse, how do we "limit their effect" on our emotional well being without doing to them what they are doing to us?

You learn from your mistakes. After college, I made the mistake of moving back home. It was around that time that I was outed. My mother was constantly in my face for about a year or 2 over it. She would chase me around the house with her insanity. The mood swings were off the charts. I understand now that she was dealing with loss of what she thought was her son.

Her and I are very much alike. When she would attack me verbally and emotionally I would attack back. It never got physical but I could see how some one could loose it and go physical. I put up with it as long as I could and started looking for a place to rent.

My 1st place on my own was a room I rented in a house for $250 a month. I stayed there for about 6 months then my best straight friend and I got an apartment together.

I limited my contact with her. It wasn't worth being around that emotional strain. I see her on Christmas and a few other times during the year. Otherwise I don't have a close relationship with her. The last few times I've been to her house she's doing the same thing to my step father. Chasing him around the house over something petty - insane. I'm suprised he hasn't divorced her yet. Christianity is the only thing keeping them together.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by drobs

The last few times I've been to her house she's doing the same thing to my step father. Chasing him around the house over something petty - insane. I'm surprised he hasn't divorced her yet.

She sounds very unhappy.

Rick

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by awediot

There are LOTS of times...

When the effort to change the world is slow, or fails...or just makes things worse, how do we "limit their effect" on our emotional well being without doing to them what they are doing to us?

Prayer.

You don't have to let anyone's seeds grow in your garden. Don't water them.

It may sound silly but sometimes I'll stand in front of a mirror and sing "I've Got the Joy in My Heart". Or maybe "This Little Light of Mine".

Children's Bible Songs are a great way to make a joyful noise. They're also a pretty good way to center yourself in that you have to breathe to sing.

Ben N. Moore

[drobs]

Originally Posted by Rick336

She sounds very unhappy.

Rick

Alzeimers runs in our family, my sister and I think that may be whats happening.

She treats my sister who Christian & married with 3 kids just as badly.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

Prayer.

You don't have to let anyone's seeds grow in your garden. Don't water them.

Were just tuning them out or turning our backs so easy... Their seed's and already established roots, influence and are a required presence for many reasons. It makes that answer true, but a little metaphorically speaking... It's not real practical.

Some people's seed's we want or need, and don't know, or like it at the moment. And some rotten seeds come from those we love and want near us anyway.

It may sound silly but sometimes I'll stand in front of a mirror and sing "I've Got the Joy in My Heart". Or maybe "This Little Light of Mine".

Children's Bible Songs are a great way to make a joyful noise. They're also a pretty good way to center yourself in that you have to breathe to sing.

Ben N. Moore

They also wake you up when you are groggy... Sing first thing to get your morning going...It's weird how well it works.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by awediot

How do you define the violence that is forbidden?

To answer the original question....How do I define the violence that is forbidden? That is an easy one for me. Any and all violence against the most innocent(children) is forbidden violence.

Anything that causes their spirits to shrivel and die is forbidden violence in my book. Rectifiying it by extracting justice against the perpretrator is holy justice.

Not very Buddist like, but can't seem to get past that point on the path.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

To answer the original question....How do I define the violence that is forbidden? That is an easy one for me. Any and all violence against the most innocent(children) is forbidden violence.

Anything that causes their spirits to shrivel and die is forbidden violence in my book. Rectifiying it by extracting justice against the perpretrator is holy justice.

You know how many "rules" and laws would cause children's spirits to "shrivel and die" if they could put it in those words? -a kid will grab whatever they want from a younger sibling with no regard to their feelings, or grasp of 'stealing'. They will automatically and naturally lie when busted about taking the cookie, and they will call you making them feel guilty about it "shriveling their soul".

I agree that "violence" against the innocent is particularly horrendous, but just what "violence" is, is difficult to say...especially when we will punish you if we do not agree.

Not very Buddist like, but can't seem to get past that point on the path.

If the want and willingness to protect the vulnerable through unwelcome, last straw force is anti-Buddhist, so be it. It is still the right thing to do.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

To answer the original question....How do I define the violence that is forbidden? That is an easy one for me. Any and all violence against the most innocent(children) is forbidden violence. .

I agree with this whole-heartedly

Originally Posted by tymejumper

Anything that causes their spirits to shrivel and die is forbidden violence in my book. Rectifiying it by extracting justice against the perpretrator is holy justice.

Not very Buddist like, but can't seem to get past that point on the path.

Here I diverge, because there is a nonviolent way to more satisfactorily deal with a perpetrator of child abuse. If he were to be made to feel the furthest extent of the suffering he caused the child thereby suffering remorse himself to the point that his new priority is asking forgiveness, he would grow compassion. The violence stops. Hate never puts an to hate. Only love can stop hate. This is the Truth of Budddha.

The problem is our society is largely anti Buddhist in its structure. This technique would likely be effective in ssay, Bhutan but not likely here. We do not have the sufficiently learned Buddhist teachers here to effectively make nonviolence work in this situation. Also some individuals cannot feel remorse or compassion in fewer than 2 years or 20 years or 50 years of teaching. Limit of resources, lifespan and teachers' willingness means this optiion is unavailable for such an individual.

Nonviolencce means not committing violence but it also means not allowing violence. If you allow violence to be done to you you are not practicing nonviolence. But if you defend yourself with violence you are also not practicing nonviolence. In this situation one must choose the lesser of two violent options.

Guess what? Practicing nonviolence is not very easy when you are inexperienced! And the more violent circumstances are the more skill in practicing nonviolence is required.

So we practice and study and learn and teach so that our skills more often yield better results in practicing nonviolence in a world where violence abounds. Maybe someday by enough of us practicing and cultivating nonviolence, Expert skill in practicing it will be developed and predominate over violence rather han the reverse that exists today.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by awediot

You know how many "rules" and laws would cause children's spirits to "shrivel and die" if they could put it in those words? -a kid will grab whatever they want from a younger sibling with no regard to their feelings, or grasp of 'stealing'. They will automatically and naturally lie when busted about taking the cookie, and they will call you making them feel guilty about it "shriveling their soul".

To rebutt:
Another child grabbing a cookie form his or her sibling does not costitute violence that is forbidden. This is simply a child in his innocence acting like a child. Lying, also is something that children do, however, if they do not have fear of getting in trouble unfairly for a childish indescretion, then they have no reason to lie do they. People lie to protect themselves. Children lie because they know something is wrong and they are giving a last ditch effort to perserve themselves. This of course proves that we are not so far removed from animals, however, it bears keeping in mind that we parents have to make it known that lying will not get them out of trouble but into deeper trouble.

The actual violence in all the above acts revolve around the fact that a parent should correct their child when they do lie or take a cookie from someone smaller than themselves. That way they learn that it is incorrect behavior. The parent who does not correct these actions is the one that is guilty then and bears the stain of violence that is forbidden.

Adults who have been taught better and are not mentally handicapped, that harm children for their own self gradification, or to gain from their loss of innocence are monsters. Period.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

But if you defend yourself with violence you are also not practicing nonviolence. In this situation one must choose the lesser of two violent options.

True, even the Buddist monks were allowed to defend themselves against attacks if it was not started by them and they had first tried to avoid it.


I also agree that it is easier to stop violence with non violence. I have seldom heard of an ex-con that went to prision for killing someone and came out of that violent environment a better person for it. They only learn how to become better at not getting caught and how to improve thier skills of violence.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

To rebutt:
Another child grabbing a cookie form his or her sibling does not costitute violence that is forbidden. This is simply a child in his innocence acting like a child. Lying, also is something that children do, however, if they do not have fear of getting in trouble unfairly for a childish indescretion, then they have no reason to lie do they. People lie to protect themselves. Children lie because they know something is wrong and they are giving a last ditch effort to perserve themselves. This of course proves that we are not so far removed from animals, however, it bears keeping in mind that we parents have to make it known that lying will not get them out of trouble but into deeper trouble.

The actual violence in all the above acts revolve around the fact that a parent should correct their child when they do lie or take a cookie from someone smaller than themselves. That way they learn that it is incorrect behavior. The parent who does not correct these actions is the one that is guilty then and bears the stain of violence that is forbidden.

True enough... For me the question is just when are we correctly disciplining our kids, and when are we squishing their little spirits in bad ways...

Adults who have been taught better and are not mentally handicapped, that harm children for their own self gradification, or to gain from their loss of innocence are monsters. Period.

Monsterous human beings, yes.

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Guess what? Practicing nonviolence is not very easy when you are inexperienced! And the more violent circumstances are the more skill in practicing nonviolence is required.

So we practice and study and learn and teach so that our skills more often yield better results in practicing nonviolence in a world where violence abounds. Maybe someday by enough of us practicing and cultivating nonviolence, Expert skill in practicing it will be developed and predominate over violence rather han the reverse that exists today.

Can we practice serving as a cyber-bodhisattva to each other?

If I may translate the term Sangha loosely as Spiritual Community then may Soulforce serve as our cyber-Sangha?

I don't know anyone whose daily spiritual practice in any faith could not be improved by adding the Six Perfections. (As outlined by the Dalai Lama)

1. Generosity
2. Mindfulness
3. Inclusiveness
4. Enthusiasm
5. Meditation
6. Wisdom