What is considered sexually immoral within homosexuality?

[JDubs12]

I'm pretty new here so I don't know if this topic has been covered, but I was reading my Bible, and in it Jesus mentions that if one is to follow Jesus he/she must abstain from sexual immorality. Now I am familiar with the translation issues; however my question is not whether homosexuality is considered to be under the umbrella of sexual immorality, but what is considered to be sexually immoral within homosexuality? I have been wondering what this would include for myself as well as other gay christians. I find if difficult to think that Jesus is simply just saying this to heterosexuals about adultery, etc... What would this include for us?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by JDubs12

Jesus mentions that if one is to follow Jesus he/she must abstain from sexual immorality.

Hi there. Welcome to the SF forum.

Could you back up a bit and clarify your reference?

Personally, I don't think there are separate injunctions for straight persons vs gay persons in the bible, as if straight people get to do things that gay persons do not.

This is an area that is fraught with problems. Why? If a gay Christian buys into the notion that he or she should not have sex before marriage (and I don't see the gospels saying anything of the sort btw), then gay people- who can't get married- are at a distinct disadvantage.

I don't know any gay person who waited to have sex before getting 'married' - either legally or not- do you?

Marriage as we understand it is a pretty recent development. Most people marry for love today. Not so in JC's time, when taking a wife had more to do with property and carrying on the male lineage. Women- as such- didn't have much say in the matter.

Morality? If it's a matter of cheating on your partner, well, I can see making a case for that. That said, I think it's more helpful to consider this is a matter of ethics rather than morality. This latter word carries with it a strong judgmental connotation, one that isn't very helpful. Everyone knows what it's like to be treated badly. However, it takes skill to learn how to treat one's self and others like one would like to be treated. Morality is - more often than not- about what one should NOT do. Ethical considerations are much broader, considering what one can do, not only for ones self, but for others to bring about happiness and joy in relationship.

Gay couples with longevity- like all couples- work out their relationship by talking about it, by mutual agreement. Does that mean that every relationship is going to look like the next one? No. I don't think so.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by JDubs12

I'm pretty new here so I don't know if this topic has been covered, but I was reading my Bible, and in it Jesus mentions that if one is to follow Jesus he/she must abstain from sexual immorality. Now I am familiar with the translation issues; however my question is not whether homosexuality is considered to be under the umbrella of sexual immorality, but what is considered to be sexually immoral within homosexuality? I have been wondering what this would include for myself as well as other gay christians. I find if difficult to think that Jesus is simply just saying this to heterosexuals about adultery, etc... What would this include for us?

Unless someone's behavior goes far out of bounds and draws in the participation of the larger society (such as molesting a child or committing rape, or some such act of violence which brings out law enforcement, etc,) this kind of question is going to be determined by each individual for himself. But we are talking about normal people, here.

Within normal bounds, each individual is going to hold himself to his own standard according to what represents his highest moral ideal. Those ideals will vary greatly from one person to the next. If you don't know what I mean by that, do a forum search for previous posts and view the contrasts in ideals for sexual behavior between various members here. A particularly clear contrast would be between Scotty and Eugene. They both post here sometimes, and have ideals for sexual behavior about as different from one another as two people can get. That's just one example of varying ideals. Therefore, no one else is going to be able to tell you what IS the standard. They can tell you theirs, or their mother's, or their pastor's, but they cannot tell you yours.


Look back at your question, which I highlighted in bold. Go back to it and ask yourself the same question, only this time insert "within heterosexuality" at the end, or even better still, just ask "what is considered to be moral/immoral within sexuality." Use whatever ideals and standards in your estimation are highest; of course you can go by what you think Jesus may have meant if that is a guide for you. Now. However you answer that question is your answer to your original query.

[u-dog]

Hi and welcome! Actually, if this topic has been covered before ... its been awhile.

You might begin with the positive side rather than the negative. Rather than asking "What is prohibited" ask "What is encouraged"? What are the attributes of any Godly relationship? The place to begin to formulate an answer is with God. What are the characteristics of how God relates to God's people? The most important attribute of God's relationships is "covenant" God makes covenant with people and then (even when people don't) God KEEPS covenant with people. God relates to us (in the words of Martin Buber) "I to Thou" subject to subject. NEVER subject to object. People are never "objects" to be used but always subjects to be engaged.

I believe that all people regardless of their sexual identity are called by God to live "I to Thou" in covenantal relationships. This is true of non-sexual as well as sexual relationships and applies to GLBT persons as much as to heterosexual persons regardless of the legal status of gay marriage. In any Godly relationship I am bound to and by the needs and the ultimate well-being of the other, just as they are bound to and by MY needs and well-being.

By this standard any sexual involvement with another person that is driven strictly by my need for sexual satisfaction without regard to the emotional well-being would be immoral. To use another person as though they were merely an "object" is wrong. For GLBT folks and for Straight folks.

A relationship where two people (and the radical faeries among us might add "or more") are covenantally bound to seek each others well-being is a moral relationship because it reflects faithfully how God interacts with us. This is as true for GLBT folks as for straight ones.

U-dog

PS: In the interest of full-disclosure I am a Christian and my answer is based on a Christian understanding of who God is.

[JDubs12]

Originally Posted by u-dog

You might begin with the positive side rather than the negative. Rather than asking "What is prohibited" ask "What is encouraged"? .

Thanks u-dog. I would usually go with positive, but this is a question that has been stewing for quite sometime. Not only that. From most of my experience as a christian and even before I became a christian. My mind has just been filled with the negativity of being a homosexual. So learning how to be a gay-christian is proving to be an interesting and at times difficult experience.

I thank you very much for your answer it has truly helped me, since I have been trying to repent from my past life style and sex being one of those vices. I wanted to understand what "sexually immoral" meant in regards to homosexuality.

Thanks

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by JDubs12

My mind has just been filled with the negativity of being a homosexual. So learning how to be a gay-christian is proving to be an interesting and at times difficult experience.

I grew up Pentecostal. They don't think much of homosexuals. Took me a long while to realize that I was buying into their thinking, even after I came out and had a loving partner. Funny how old thoughts stay with one.

It concerns me that you say that your mind has been filled with the negativity of being a homosexual.

Ok. How about turning it around?

What is the negativity of being a heterosexual?

Just may be possible that God loves you as you are. And that being gay isn't some horrible thing where you are compelled to give into terrible desires.

Oh...I don't know squat I am sure. But I'm wondering if you are hung up on being gay. May not seem like much, but being gay is very different than being homosexual.

I disagree with you if sex is considered a vice.

I agree with U-dog when he writes that treating another person as an object for self-gratification is a problem. It leaves out the heart, not only one's own heart, but that of one's partner.

The best sex is when you are in love with your man. How do I know that? Because I've experienced it.

[JDubs12]

Originally Posted by Daniel

It concerns me that you say that your mind has been filled with the negativity of being a homosexual.

Ok. How about turning it around? [/I]

Any negativity I have or have thought about homosexuality does not really focus on others as much as myself. I am constantly reminded what many churches and denominations of Christianity think about homosexuality, and I do not agree with them.

Any negativity I have about homosexuality does not really have much to do with homosexuals, but with primarily myself being homosexual. Thus, forgive me for being a bit blunt at the moment, since you are not my therapist, that is a problem for myself to figure out.

You make it sound as if I'm becoming a drone, which I am not. I have always had issues with my own homosexuality, but those are my own issues to deal with, which I will not discuss on here.

I do see your point, but I am trying to flush of negativity out. Trying to figure out the lies (on both sides) from the truths.

I apologize but it is hard for me to be positive about a part of my life that has left me with so many negative imprints (and I'm not talking from a religious perspective)

So though upon this reply I can already see the disagreement, or dare I say pity. You may have for me, since I have basically outed the fact that I may be some semblance of a self loathing gay. Yes this is unfortunate, but keep in mind that it has more to do with myself than my religious beliefs.

I am just trying to figure out how to live a gay lifestyle that is not only healthy, but also one that Christ would approve of. Keep in mind I'm not talking about turning myself straight.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by JDubs12

Any negativity I have or have thought about homosexuality does not really focus on others as much as myself. I am constantly reminded what many churches and denominations of Christianity think about homosexuality, and I do not agree with them.

Any negativity I have about homosexuality does not really have much to do with homosexuals, but with primarily myself being homosexual. Thus, forgive me for being a bit blunt at the moment, since you are not my therapist, that is a problem for myself to figure out.

You make it sound as if I'm becoming a drone, which I am not. I have always had issues with my own homosexuality, but those are my own issues to deal with, which I will not discuss on here.

I do see your point, but I am trying to flush of negativity out. Trying to figure out the lies (on both sides) from the truths.

I apologize but it is hard for me to be positive about a part of my life that has left me with so many negative imprints (and I'm not talking from a religious perspective)

So though upon this reply I can already see the disagreement, or dare I say pity. You may have for me, since I have basically outed the fact that I may be some semblance of a self loathing gay. Yes this is unfortunate, but keep in mind that it has more to do with myself than my religious beliefs.

I am just trying to figure out how to live a gay lifestyle that is not only healthy, but also one that Christ would approve of. Keep in mind I'm not talking about turning myself straight.

Pity is for those who think they are better than someone else. And I would be a fool if I thought I was better than you. I am not.

I've had so many struggles. Still have struggles. But I don't struggle with being gay anymore. I did for a long while after I came out. Why? Because my fundi family made life hard.

I finally realized- came to the self-knowledge- that God does not hate me.

How to live a life that is not self-hating?

In my case that has meant learning how to love myself and accept my desires as normal, mundane even.

My experience has been that I get into problems when I don't face what I am feeling. And this happens even though I have been in a relationship with a man for 15 years.

There is always something to work on.

We all have things we don't like about ourselves. I think it is just a matter of how we are going to deal with things.

Takes time. And persistence. Prayer and lots of self- examination. Not a simple matter. But a necessary one.

Being gay is a gift. That's been my experience. But that realization didn't come overnight.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by JDubs12

I apologize but it is hard for me to be positive about a part of my life that has left me with so many negative imprints (and I'm not talking from a religious perspective)

I am just trying to figure out how to live a gay lifestyle that is not only healthy, but also one that Christ would approve of. Keep in mind I'm not talking about turning myself straight.

Hello again.

When I posted before and suggested you take out 'homosexuality' from your original question and just ask yourself what is moral/immoral in 'sexuality', generally, I wasn't being cute. Quite seriously -- How you answer that question for yourself is going to be your guidepost for living your life as whoever you are, with whatever feelings you have, in a way that enables you to feel you are upholding your own values.

Sometimes, guys who were taught being gay makes them monsters wind up exploring that part of 'the gay community' that is more about casual sex than about relationships, and then they start thinking that being gay was what led them into those particular associations, when maybe the reason was they were hoping they would wake up straight tomorrow so they wanted to keep things on the down low. I'm not saying that's you, since obviously I don't know, but it IS a possibility that you may have run into some aspects of the gay community that really do not live up to your own values and maybe you were generalizing those traits a little bit on to the mere fact of being gay? Or am I way off base?

My point is simply: you have the power to determine your own values, and you don't have to find someone else's 'rule' about what is moral behavior in the gay world or any other corner of the world. Decide what your value system is, and then follow it. When you decide what is your set of values, use whatever you most prize as a yardstick. If that's Jesus, then determine what you believe his teachings mean and do your best to follow them in every situation. If Zerbie or Daniel tells you where the limit lies, you will always feel uncertain if it's right. But if you use your own heart and mind, both together, to determine what you are SURE is God's desire for your behavior, then you will feel secure.

You have some sorting out to do, but you'll do it. You already look with a healthy skepticism at both 'sides' of the issue, so keep applying that same intelligence to answering your question.

[scott snedeker]

Think of Capacity for Intimacy is a gift.

Capacity for intimacy:

Labels Used for capacity for intimacy for the oppostie sex are "straight" "normal" "Heterosexual"

Labels commonly used for capacity for the same sex are ones we all know.

How about making a label that reflects the potential for the joy and precious nature love and passion two people can create?

I like something like "masculine intimacy" Or "intimate male bonding" or "male sensuality" or more basic "Masculine loving" or "man on man loving" Grr! gets me hot and brings up sexy pictures of hot guys that look fun to play with. I get a sense of unfettered entitlement to grab, kiss embrace and and caress and Mmmmm!.......all the good parts

Or "feminine intimacy", "intimate female bonding" or "female sensuality" or more basic Feminine loving or just "loving" Feels mysterious and interesting.

However if folks ask me if I am Gay, I may answer:

"No."

"That would be waaaaay too tame!"

"I'm a Radical Faerie***!"

Practice focussing on a perspective of your capacity for intimacy (which for you is with your own gender) that affirms that this is wonderful gift from God*.

He created you gay** because there is another of his gay children who needs you... and when the two of you meet and share the joy of His gift, God* smiles..... like a parent watching his children opening presents on Christmas morning!






Footnotes:

*popular label for a human model of natural phenomena based on ancient Abrahamic textural references with attributes of sentience, male gender, and occasional fits of purile behavior.

**popular casual label for capacity for intimacy with the same gender, Tend to decorate well but often lack hand-eye coordination in baseball etc.

*** A Counter Radical Queer culture whose gender indentity and sexuality differ at their rooted beginnings and have no interest in attachment to any outside labels