While we're on the topic of mysticism

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

So God really is Light? A wave and a particle at the same time. Two "inconsistent characteristics" of the same phenomena. Who'd a thunk?

Ok. I am trying to be humorous. But it is interesting to think about.

I don't take that as humorous at all. Light has the very properties Udog described (and I was the one who went there with the example of the photon.) God and light are referenced together throughout many traditions and many generations. I take light as a sort of foundational 'atom' of God's emanation to create the universe.

[Daniel]

The verse I am the light of the world (John 8:12) come to mind.

[u-dog]

In my experience never harsh but almost always difficult. The Holy Spirit is primarily about the task of transformation, i.e. change, i.e. growth which always hurts to some degree. I would use words like "implacable" and "insatiable" and "annoyingly persistent"

Okay, I'm getting a picture. Do you think most christians would characterize it similarly to the way you have here, or not?

All? no. Most? yes, I think so

I would love to hear about how it moves in phases, if that's okay with you. Or anyone else who has experienced it moving in phases. Anyone?

My experience is that the Holy Spirit leads one step at a time. She doesn't lay out a whole multi-step plan. If I follow faithfully one step... then The Holy Spirit lays out the next one. If I misstep then the HS lays out a right step from there. (sort of like a GPS unit when you miss a turn -- "Re-calculating" )

[BruceChris]

I hope that this isn't too off topic, but it does have to do with Patriarchy, Gender, and many complaints of Lesbianism

The 8 Re-imagining gatherings were held in the Minneapolis metro area, the first in 1993. I was able to attend three, including the last.

Originally Posted by u-dog

In the early 90's the was a PResbyterian women's conference called "Re-imagining"(attended by 2000 women and 80 men, and there was a LONG waiting list) that focused heavily on the concept of "Sophia". ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. In another age there would have been burnings at the stake. People STILL talk about it almost 20 years later. Yikes.

To taste some of the outrage:

"themes and content of the conference which ranged from direct attacks on traditional Christian doctrine and the celebration of homosexuality, to overt paganism, witchcraft, and New Age/Occult ritual".

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/reimagin.htm

http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/1994v29n3.htm

I was unable to attend the first Re-imagining conferance, to my lasting regret. Many (male) voices from the hierarchies of many mainline denominations complained very loudly, and in their church publications that women can't DO this sort of thing, it's heresy, and even blasphemy. Some women were fired from their jobs. You CAN'T be a feminist AND a Christian, many of them said.

It is my belief that these men were saying, in their own way, that women are not made in the image of the Almighty. The Catholics and hardline Conservative Christians have even made this a part of their doctrine. I maintain that you cannot be a Christian and NOT be a feminist. I am sorry. I am unable to NOT feel judgmental about these men, for that reason. Come judgment day, I am sure that we will all be suitably enlightened.

The theme, "God, Immanent and Transcendent" was the title of one of the
addresses given by one of the (women) theologians, of which there were many, at one of the gatherings I attended.

Yes, Sophia is the name given to the wisdom of God, personified as a woman.

Originally Posted by u-dog

Conservative Christians don't like to.....

Conservative Christians are afraid of women, and therefore also afraid of homosexuality.

Originally Posted by u-dog

Its a form of idolatry because what they are really worshipping is maleness.
Their own, as far as I can see - BC
just my opinion of course.

O.K., end of rant. In the Christian Church, there are many weak, craven people. And many wonderful, loving people. I hope that this isn't too far off topic, but I Was There, well, immediately afterward, and at later gatherings, and this was A Formative Experience in my Life

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

"Re-Membering and Re-imagining", 1995, The Pilgrim Press, Nancy Berneking and Pamela Carter Joern, ISBN 0-8298-1074-9

And now, back to the Holy Spirit

[u-dog]

Polly and I were living in St Paul in 93. I attended a few events (Sweet Honey and the Rock concert for one ... WOW!). Polly was a small part of the planning team for the event. I had three women from my congregation attend the conference. One fairly conservative, one middle of the road, and one fairly radical (my wife). All three appreciated the experience and none of them were shocked by its content. It was the "Presbyterian Layman" and Institute for Religion and Democracy who lied through their teeth and blew the whole thing out of proportion. Pretty much the same tactics that are being used against President Obama right now.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by u-dog

The show is the tension contained in the cable that stretches between the poles. The show is what happens on the cable when the lady in the pink tutu and the parasol steps out onto the cable for the first time. The show is the tightness in the chests of the audience watching the lady in the pink tutu.

This is a great and wonderful description.

Originally Posted by u-dog

God CANNOT logically be both ONE and THREE but holding both of these aspects of God at the same time creates a dynamic tension that prevents us from reducing God to a manageable little reality that will fit neatly into our pigeon holes. The truth of who and what God is can only be experienced in the context of this dynamic tension... this paradox... this mystery.

Literalists/empiricists cannot stand this. But then they also don't like poetry, art, etc.

Originally Posted by u-dog

In other words, doctrinal language is not primarily descriptive language. It is primarily a creative and functional use of language. I use doctrinal language to create a space wherein I can experience the reality of a God I cannot describe. DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL?

Yes, yes, yes.

Originally Posted by u-dog

The Holy Spirit is that which gives me the courage to do what I know is right even though it is costly and dangerous. The Holy Spirit is what takes the cold, dead words of Scripture and transforms them into the life-giving word of God. The Holy Spirit is that which gives me words to say in the face of unutterable tragedy. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to find blessing in the midst of the shit that life sometimes dishes out. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to confidently put one foot in front of the other when I am walking around in a darkened world.

The HS is my better angel, my good conscience, and the nudging Jewish grandmother I never had.

[BruceChris]

Feminine or Gender-transcendent God

Christian feminists believe that gender equality within the church cannot be achieved without rethinking the portrayal and understanding of God as a masculine being.[27] The theological concept of Sophia, usually seen as replacing the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, is often used to fulfill this desire for symbols which reflect women's religious experiences. How Sophia is configured is not static, but usually filled with emotions and individual expression.[28] For some Christian feminists, the Sophia concept is found in a search for women who reflect contemporary feminist ideals in both the Old and New Testament. Some figures co-opted for this purpose include the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene,[29] Eve,[30] and Esther.[31] Others see God as entirely gender-transcendent[32] or focus on the feminine aspects of God and Jesus[33]

These are not exact or well defined answers. Then again, any religion that offers exact answers is probably one that most of us would just as soon stay away from.

EDIT: Drane, I like your post.

Very Amateur Theologian, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Literalists/empiricists cannot stand this. But then they also don't like poetry, art, etc.

Oh so true! We live, by-and-large, in a left-brain dominant world- that is- a world run by left-brain dominant people. And they are usually men.

Women have more access, more connective tissue between the hemisphere's in their brains. They start talking about something and go from thing to thing to thing (going back and forth between hemisphere's - between feeling and thought), and then wind up at their point, while men just go slam bam into what they want (no...I am not talking about sex but the same approach applies!). Why? Because of the connective tissue! It seems like such a simple thing, but it isn't. And yes, it also takes both sides of the brain to appreciate poetry. When I read about this (years ago), I really 'got it'. Those who can see the poetry in scripture express themselves quite differently that those who don't.

Sorry for the tangent. But sometimes I think the thing to be able to do is to speak the the person one is speaking with in the manner in which they think, not what they think.

[BenL]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

Feminine or Gender-transcendent God

Christian feminists believe that gender equality within the church cannot be achieved without rethinking the portrayal and understanding of God as a masculine being.[27] The theological concept of Sophia, usually seen as replacing the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, is often used to fulfill this desire for symbols which reflect women's religious experiences. How Sophia is configured is not static, but usually filled with emotions and individual expression.[28] For some Christian feminists, the Sophia concept is found in a search for women who reflect contemporary feminist ideals in both the Old and New Testament. Some figures co-opted for this purpose include the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene,[29] Eve,[30] and Esther.[31] Others see God as entirely gender-transcendent[32] or focus on the feminine aspects of God and Jesus[33]

These are not exact or well defined answers. Then again, any religion that offers exact answers is probably one that most of us would just as soon stay away from.

EDIT: Drane, I like your post.

Very Amateur Theologian, Bruce Chris

My concept of gender and God is undergoing an explosion of meaningfulness as a result of the journey I have been on with my trans spouse. At one point in my life, when I was young, I believed and took for granted that God was male. As I was exposed to feminist thought as an adult, I began to think that God was female, or, maybe, gender neutral. Since my spouse began transition from female to male, I have come to see God as both male and female. Here is the feeble logic I have been able to muster to the question:

If God is creator of all things, and if creation is an expression of the divine and a reflection of God's love, then gender difference is somehow part of God. The creative force in human beings and, indeed, in most life forms, is divided into male and female. In God, such divisions pre-existed in a unity we can't understand except in glimpses. For men and women to reflect and embody equally the image of God, then God somehow is both female and male. It's how God can rightly be called father and mother, even though that is just a human metaphor. No human being can comprehend God's totality, which by nature is infinite.

Oooohhh, my head is starting to hurt.

[andrewlittle]

Zerbie, first I want to say that you've been getting some amazing answers from u-dog. I doubt I could do any better or add much to his remarks.

I'll pick one of your questions, though, and add my two cents worth.

(Now, remember, I am something of a cynic when it comes to church-goers.) Do all Christians think this way. I would say very few. it's not that they would disagree - it's just they don't bother to go there in the first place. It is too deep - too complex - too uncomfortable.

Your questions are the stuff of deep theological reflection, as are u-dog's answers. I have to tell you, give me two or three people like you in a church and I would be in heaven. Your's is an inquiring mind trying to wrap itself around the divine - not stuff the divine in a nice comfy box. I love it.

My opinion on whether the HS is the life force of creatures is a little heretical possibly. We are each made in the image of God. If you look at us, the likeness to God is unlikely to be physical. If we look at the variety of ways people think and the way cognitive processes work and even the different kinds of intelligences, I doubt the likeness to God is in our mental capacities, either.

That is where the soul, for want of a better word, enters into the equation for me. It is the essence of God that is in each of us - the very core of our being that calls us to community (when we listen). That essence has sometimes been called the spark. And I envision the HS to be the breath or wind that fans the spark - that calls us to God and Godliness in our dealings with each other.

Whether the wind is the result of a gentle breeze created by the wings of a peaceful dove, or the powerful gust that fans the spark into flames that engulf us in the firey work of creation, it is still the breath of life. How that is manifest in each life is a little different. In Jenna's it has been a constant wafting breath that has always called her towards a passion for God's justice and mercy. In my case, it was a hurricane that that kncoked me off my feet and instilled in me an awe that I had never had before. (Of course, being as obtuse as I am, it took a little more effort for me.)

Our reaction the the HS is ours to choose. We can feel the breeze in our hair and on our face and react by loving God and neighbor more, or we can turn our back for fear of getting dust in our eyes.

I'll leave it at that for now - I don't know if I'm adding anything or not.

[Zerbie]

This is great stuff, Andy. I need to be talking to you more.

So, do churches not talk about this much then? Do pastors not speak much of these things? Why not?

What about the questions asked in post #6? They have mostly not been addressed. Are they things no one has an opinion about?

I want to come back to this - I have a lot more to say and to ask, particularly of Andy, but also in general. Busy today. . . .

[andrewlittle]

... to get to the questions in #6 tomorrow. They require some thought that, at my ripe age, I cannot muster late in the evening. Just wanted you to know I heard you, Zerbie.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

All? no. Most? yes, I think so



My experience is that the Holy Spirit leads one step at a time. She doesn't lay out a whole multi-step plan. If I follow faithfully one step... then The Holy Spirit lays out the next one. If I misstep then the HS lays out a right step from there. (sort of like a GPS unit when you miss a turn -- "Re-calculating" )

Love your analogy.

So, would you characterize the holy spirit as ever-present and more importantly, ever-perceptible? This sounds fairly constant to me. Is it then something that does not move in large cyclic phases?

Darn - I find I can't ask the question any other way to clarify what it is I'm trying to find out. I guess I'm asking if the holy spirit is of the nature of a wave. ? (Not really sure that's what I'm asking, it's been a long day!)

[Pablo Rafael]

The symbols of fire, wind and the dove are derived from events recorded in the Bible. When Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove. On the day of Pentecost after Jesus has died and risen from the dead His disciples were hiding indoors when the power of the holy Spirit came upon them. The HS came in the sound of a rushing wind and as flames appearing over their heads. From that point on the disciples were tireless in their spread of the Gospel message.

I think fire and wind are great symbols for the Holy Spirit. They are energy, not substance. Wind is not easily illustrated so it hasn't become a commonly used symbol; fire and the dove have. The dove seems less effective as a symbol than fire in my opinion.

I think that the work of the Holy Spirit is often imperceptible. And when it is apparent, it is impossible to measure. Of all the attempts people have made to define and describe God I like the simple statement of John, "God is love". Love is hard to see, hard to measure, but its effect is real and powerful. In fact, I think love is more powerful than any other force in the universe.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Love your analogy.

So, would you characterize the holy spirit as ever-present and more importantly, ever-perceptible?

Definitely ever-present. There is never a moment when the Spirit is absent. Ever-perceptible? no... but that has more to do with our openess to perceive than with any characteristic of the Spirit him/her/itself.

This sounds fairly constant to me. Is it then something that does not move in large cyclic phases?

Can you say more about what you mean by cyclic?

Darn - I find I can't ask the question any other way to clarify what it is I'm trying to find out. I guess I'm asking if the holy spirit is of the nature of a wave. ? (Not really sure that's what I'm asking, it's been a long day!)

The metaphor of "wave" sounds right in my experience. I have never surfed (other than body surfing) but I often think when I'm preaching that this must be what surfing is like. It feels like the Spirit comes up behind and lifts me. There is an element of skill in lining yourself up with the wave and letting it have you at just the right moment but all of the power and energy belong to the wave. Also, if you miss the wave ... there is another one right behind it that offers another new opportunity to ride. Is that what you mean by "cyclic?"

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Definitely ever-present. There is never a moment when the Spirit is absent. Ever-perceptible? no... but that has more to do with our openess to perceive than with any characteristic of the Spirit him/her/itself.

Can you say more about what you mean by cyclic?



The metaphor of "wave" sounds right in my experience. I have never surfed (other than body surfing) but I often think when I'm preaching that this must be what surfing is like. It feels like the Spirit comes up behind and lifts me. There is an element of skill in lining yourself up with the wave and letting it have you at just the right moment but all of the power and energy belong to the wave. Also, if you miss the wave ... there is another one right behind it that offers another new opportunity to ride. Is that what you mean by "cyclic?"

Hmm. Not sure. Though I think my meaning of cyclic or phasic includes that sense of being in the zone WITH the force that is acting through you.

By cyclic, or phasic, I mean rather: does it manifest in annual cycles, or seasonal cycles? Does this spirit make you energized in one cycle and consume your energy so you have none available during the other? Does it have you reaching out towards the world in one phase and curling inwardly during the other?

That is what I mean by the nature of a wave. Alternating phases: in then out, high then low. That sort of alternation.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

The symbols of fire, wind and the dove are derived from events recorded in the Bible.

Okay. Yeah. This is where my questions are heading. What I'm wondering is, what properties has this spirit that is was perceived in the ways it was.

What were the conditions that it was perceived one time as a dove, at other times as wind and fire? It would suggest it shows itself differently according to the qualities of the one it is touching? Or is this the wrong tree to bark up?

When Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove.
Doves seem less violent than flames. Is there a reason Jesus got a dove and the other fellas got flames?




disciples were hiding indoors when the power of the holy Spirit came upon them. The HS came in the sound of a rushing wind and as flames appearing over their heads.

This really gets to why I asked the question. Who saw flames over their heads? They did? Or strangers did? Everyone in town saw it? They all saw flames? Did no one see doves? Did everyone feel wind emanating from the disciples as well? How long did the flames last? An hour? A week? 6 months? 5 years? The rest of their lives? Was it constant, or did it come and go?

Did the flames have heat? One would assume so. What was the effect of this heat on the bodies of the disciples? On those around them? Did anyone jump in the water to get away? I am serious! Or was everyone filled with joy when it appeared?

Could the flame be metaphorical? If so, why choose the symbol of flame? Since it seems to recur insistently, it would seem based in a real experience - real fire - or something fire-like. The spirit consumes one, AS a fire consumes debris?




I think fire and wind are great symbols for the Holy Spirit. They are energy, not substance. Wind is not easily illustrated so it hasn't become a commonly used symbol; fire and the dove have. The dove seems less effective as a symbol than fire in my opinion.

I'm connecting to this. The Holy Spirit is fire-like and wind-like at varying times, because it is like a kind of spiritual-kinetic energy.

I can see why the wind might not recur often as a symbol, as it would be more difficult to render in painting, and particularly in sculpture, than fire or a bird. But why in your opinion is the dove a less effective symbol than fire?


Love is hard to see, hard to measure, but its effect is real and powerful. In fact, I think love is more powerful than any other force in the universe.

And to the extent that this spirit is god, it is love. ?
I can see love being characterized as fire-like or as bird-like, depending upon the angle from which one is looking. Or even as wind-like. Yes, I can see that.

[Pablo Rafael]

Okay. Yeah. This is where my questions are heading. What I'm wondering is, what properties has this spirit that is was perceived in the ways it was.

What were the conditions that it was perceived one time as a dove, at other times as wind and fire? It would suggest it shows itself differently according to the qualities of the one it is touching? Or is this the wrong tree to bark up?

As far as I know the Holy Spirit only appeared as a dove at the baptism of Jesus. The gospel of Mark says, "As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove." Mark 1:10 Lukes adds, "...in bodily form like a dove."

The Bible more commonly uses the wind or breath imagery for the Spirit of God. At the very start of the Bible in the creation account it says. "...the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2 The Spirit was the power of God in creation. Also in the creation account God "breathed into [Adam's] nostrils the Breath of Life." Gen 2:7 In Ezekiel chapter 37 God gives Ezekiel a vision where all the dead are raised to life. The Lord says "Come from the four winds O breath, and breath into these slain that they may live."

I think you are right that the Spririt of God comes to people in many different ways depending on the circumstances and the person. God came to Elijah as a gentle whisper, to Moses in the fire of a burining bush, to many in dreams or visions, to Saint Paul as a voice that knocked him off his horse.

I think that "God" and "The Spirit" are so interchangeable of terms that it impossible to split them apart. The idea of the Holy Spirit as a seprate entity from God comes about because we humans like to compartementalize things.

Doves seem less violent than flames. Is there a reason Jesus got a dove and the other fellas got flames?

You have me puzzled here. Just a thought: The disciples of Jesus had just had their leader executed, their hopes dashed, their live disrupted, and they were afraid that the authorities would come for them next. What they needed was strength, so the HS came showing power.

This really gets to why I asked the question. Who saw flames over their heads? They did? Or strangers did? Everyone in town saw it? They all saw flames? Did no one see doves? Did everyone feel wind emanating from the disciples as well? How long did the flames last? An hour? A week? 6 months? 5 years? The rest of their lives? Was it constant, or did it come and go?

All it says is, "When the day of Pentecost (a Jewish festival) came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them . All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit..." Acts 2: 2-3 Later it says that others around heard the sound. It is not recorded that anyone else saw the fire or if the disciples were out where people could see them.

The disciples immediately began to tell the Gospel message of Jesus, and no mention of the flames appears again, so I assume it was a short-lived event. The rest of the book of Acts tells of the disciples, especially Peter and Paul, as they fearlessly tell about the crucified and risen Christ. No more cowering in the corner.

Did the flames have heat? One would assume so. What was the effect of this heat on the bodies of the disciples? On those around them? Did anyone jump in the water to get away? I am serious! Or was everyone filled with joy when it appeared?

Well, they were filled with power. I don't know about the joy. The Bible just gives these few sentences about the event, though the coming of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Bible multiple times after this event. The Bible gives very few details.

Could the flame be metaphorical? If so, why choose the symbol of flame? Since it seems to recur insistently, it would seem based in a real experience - real fire - or something fire-like. The spirit consumes one, AS a fire consumes debris?

I think most anything in the Bible could be metaphorical. I think that we miss the meaning of the Bible if we try to over-analyze events and stories. I think the Bible tries to convey large sweeps of meaning not picky details. Often that meaning comes in metaphors, for how else can an unfathomable God make himself known to us who cannot comprehend him.

The imagry of fire in the Bible is very common. Oftentimes it is in the context of burning away the dross (as in smelting) or the weeds (as in farming). Many times judgement is represented as fire, the burning away of the evil in the world. God showed himself during the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt as a fire at night, and as mentioned earlier, to Moses in the bush that did not burn up.

Why in your opinion is the dove a less effective symbol than fire?

Doves seem too tame and too gentle to me. (Might I say rather wimpy.) Plus they remind me of pidgeons which cover everything in Los Angeles with bird droppings. Not my favorite bird. I would have chosen an eagle as the symbol if anyone had asked me.

[andrewlittle]

... a personal story might help tell you my thoughts about the Holy Spirit, Zerbie.

For months I had experienced what I thought were random ideas of God and God’s relationship to the universe. Despite efforts to push them away, these notions entered my head at the most inappropriate times. I knew, without doubt, that I was slipping into insanity. I wasn’t ready, except there were times that the idea of just letting my mind wander off was attractive.

In April 1996 I made a final, and seemingly fatal, decision. L. (my wife at the time) went to church that Sunday and, as usual, I stayed home. Upon arriving at church the Music Director, Beckie B., asked L. about me. Beckie had been in one of the prayer groups, but she wouldn’t have known me if we bumped into each other. She then offered to be available anytime, should I need to talk, and told L. that she believed God would be knocking soon and I might need help. What occurred concurrently a few miles away seems implausible, but is true.

At basically the same time, I put on my headphones to listen to some loud rock and roll, a favorite Sunday morning pursuit. It helped to chase the voices from my head. I was listening to a song, by the group Blues Traveler, I’d heard dozens of times before. The words ‘Jesus Christ died for your sins’ were clearly audible in the song. The problem was that none words on that CD were discernable and I knew it. I pulled out the CD jacket and the words I saw were nothing like those I was hearing. Shaken, I turned off the stereo and went out to my woodshop in the garage where I turned on the TV. Yes, I had a TV in the garage – it’s where I went to smoke. I was trembling as I changed from one station to another. I had never before seen a TV preacher on every channel, and they were all giving the same message - Christ died for my sins. I knew I had lost it. I wanted to run, but didn’t know to where. I just stood there motionless. And then a blackness, the likes of which I had never seen, enveloped me. I had always described depression as a dark hole you saw yourself descending into. I knew, without knowing how, this was the deepest depression I had ever experienced and I wouldn’t be coming back. I remember picking up my sharpest tool, a drawknife, and resolutely deciding I wasn’t going into that hole. I was ready to die.

The rest of the memory seems more like the recollection of a hallucination, except with much more clarity. I remember, with no sense of time, being aware of all of the times I had hurt others, even in the smallest way. I was fully aware of all my sins, a concept with which I was totally unfamiliar. I had an overwhelming sense of sorrow and remorse while, at the same time, experienced the peace, calm and security of knowing I was all right. I knew, for the first time in my life, the feeling that came with a sense of forgiveness. It seemed as though the thickest, softest comforter imaginable had swallowed me. Accepting that unconditional forgiveness has continued to be a difficulty.

Upon L.’s arrival home she found me face down on the garage floor, knees under my chest, sobbing and moaning. She helped me up, sat me down and, after looking into my face, called Beckie. Beckie talked, prayed and cried with me into the night. She knew I was in a strange place and was feeling very unsure. Logic told me it had to be hallucinations of insanity, but I knew in my heart it was real. I also remembered myriad bible passages and comments, mostly from my mother and her friends, from decades before. They had never made any sense, nor held any interest for me, but now I knew I needed to cling to them. I can now thank God, and the obedience and faithfulness of many others, for my very soul.

I began going to church with L., crying at almost every sermon and song that seemed to bore directly into my heart. I was invited out of the blue to join a small group led by a young couple that had left Liberty some years earlier, and whom I had only met once or twice by accident. Their group was for college students and young adults, but they welcomed this forty-three year-old as one of their own. Over the next two years I was taught and loved by a group of ‘twenty-somethings’. It didn’t stop there. Everywhere I turned were people who could have only been sent by God, at just the right moment. My life somehow seemed orchestrated by and toward God.

Within months of this event in my life, I found the courage to walk away from my suicidal lifestyle.

I believe the HS was active in a number of ways.

At first, the HS gently nudged me, but I did not listen. Then the HS knocked me off my horse, so to speak. The HS was present in the actions of Becky, who responded in unquestioning love. The HS was present in church, this time gently again calling to my heart.

I don't know if this adds anything. I found myself unable to enter into deep theological conversation at the moment, but I do emotion - so I'm offering it as an example.

[Zerbie]

Yeah. That's the kind of power, motion, function, I was asking after.
If there is any tradition/precedent for viewing the holy spirit as a kind of raw 'knock your socks off' power.

Like in that book you recommended me to, a dangerous dance between illness and the spirit. Could it be the holy spirit bringing those conditions? I was wondering when I started this thread if raw rushes of non-ordinary experience are part of the vocabulary of christian experience, if there was a name for pointing to such. This spirit power thing would seem to be the place to describe it, if there is one.