A question about Aids/HIV from male-to-male sexual relationships

[Jordan0517]

This has been on my mind for a while and I havent done any research on it but today, in my life fitness class, we had a guest speaker who came to talk to us about STD's. Of course she brought up AIDS and HIV and she showed us a chart about the percentages of sexual relationships that are at risk. If im not mistaken, 53 % are from male to male sex..31% is from hetrosexual, and I forget the rest. = also remember from I believe wikipedia reading the female-to-female sex is one of the ones less at risk. So my question is: why are male-to-male sexual relationship at risk the most and does it play a factor into haterosexual relationships if these guys are having sex with both men and women? (please forgive me if I come off as ignorant of this. I was just curious and wanted to know because the thought of Aids scares me)

[psycho_drama]

Originally Posted by Jordan0517

This has been on my mind for a while and I havent done any research on it but today, in my life fitness class, we had a guest speaker who came to talk to us about STD's. Of course she brought up AIDS and HIV and she showed us a chart about the percentages of sexual relationships that are at risk. If im not mistaken, 53 % are from male to male sex..31% is from hetrosexual, and I forget the rest. = also remember from I believe wikipedia reading the female-to-female sex is one of the ones less at risk. So my question is: why are male-to-male sexual relationship at risk the most and does it play a factor into haterosexual relationships if these guys are having sex with both men and women? (please forgive me if I come off as ignorant of this. I was just curious and wanted to know because the thought of Aids scares me)

HIV is not a "gay" disease, but it affects Gay, Bisexual men btween the ages 18-29 the most, why?

1)Young men are more sexually active around this time.
2)the types of sex that men have with one another can have greater risk.
A BJ for example is considered low risk, unless you have some sort of injury to your mouth, it is even recommened that you brush your teeth 1-2 hours before, because you can cause your gums to bleed if you brush to hard.

Anal sex on the other hand. It is considered one of the most high risk behaviors for contracting HIV. The anus is a fragile enviroment, prone to tearing, and internal ejaculation is basically rolling out the welcome mat for the virus. Barebacking is the highest risk behavior for contractin HIV.


Three things can be done to avoid this, 1 use a condom, the most important. Condoms are 97% effective in preventing the spread of HIV and many other std's, 2 use plenty of lubricant, this will help keep the condom from breaking and help reduce tearing of the anus. 3 go slow wait for the anus to relax, this will help for both partners enjoyment and also help reduce tearing.

Gay men are not more sexually driven than any other male. they aremerely deflecting their desires off other male desires, not that thats a bad thing, but if measures are taken to protect oneself and one's partner. I say have fun.

I hope I answered your question

[stdslove]

STD rates soar worldwide!!! Use a condom to protect you yourself!!!!
A friend of mine who works for the largest STD dating Positivefish.com == told me that the new subscribers have
increased 200% over 2008. Rising STD rate sparks online dating sites.

[Alecto]

The other reason (don't know what percentage the effect is but it's worth something) is that the gay population is one of the ways the virus was introduced into this country. It started there (and a few other places), so it only makes sense that those rates are going to be a little bit higher. Combined with what psycho_drama said....there ya go.

[Jordan0517]

so the gay population introduced the disease but do we know how the disease began? i guess what i want to know is if two guys have sex..and neither one of them has aids or hiv..then can they get the disease (this is without a condom of course). i could be wrong but it sounds like aids got started with two men having sex anally..but i could be wrong. i just want to know as much as possible you know.

[Alecto]

They're pretty sure it somehow crossed over from another species last I heard; likely from the blood.

If two people have never been exposed to the virus, they will not spontaneously produce it. If one of those people WAS exposed but doesn't know it (or, worse, knows but doesn't say anything), then there's a problem; always be careful.

[scott snedeker]

Fear is the worst reason to make a decision. To be celibate because of Fear of HIV is the wrong way to go. It is Death in Life. I know, i have lived both. This in a way is worse than becoming HIV+ So In being Celibate there is a prohibitive Risk of a Miserable Lonely Passionless Hell

So first deal with your fear of HIV. Get to really know folks who are HIV+. You will find that they are no different than you. Two Of my Lovers are HIV+ and doing well. They are very dear to me.

I use my feelings as a guide for level of risk of intimate activity.

Kissing, I consider negligible risk. If I Become Hiv + from Kissing then to hell with worrying about it! It's just my fate Get over it!

Oral Sex, More risk. Some would say never unprotected. There is probably some instance of transmission. I don't think it's high. For me it's a risk I can live with. I also drive on highways and body surf which also carry risks. I'm not staying away from the ocean for fear of sharks or Portguese Man o' war either

Anal sex with Condoms as a Top: Some risk. I think rate of transmission is low. Most don't consider prohibitive

Anal sex with condom as a Bottom. More risk. Again most don't consider prohibtive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now the underground, The decisions that speaking of is taboo, yet happen every day

Anal sex without condom as a top: More risk yet. Probably Not as high as being a bottom, A large number, if not the majority consider this to be prohibitively risky. some estimate rate of transmission 10% if practiced regularly

Anal Sex without a condom as a bottom. Most risky of all. This is probably the mode of infection for 95+% in Men. Nearly every guy claims he never does it. Nearly all have actually done it.

Anal sex without a condom with someone who is HIV+ but viral load undetectable: Theoretically less risky than with someone untreated brimming with virus, but not very reliable margin of safety. You are playing with fire. If you participate don't be surprised if your next screening comes up poz

Sero selection: POZ boys Barebacking with POZ boys. Again if your viral load is undetectable, THeortically are you protected? Maybe, There is preliminary data suggesting you might be, but then again you may theoretically get a strain that is resistant to your antiviral Cocktail and upset the delicate balance that took a year or two to achieve.....

So where do I draw the line?

I have in the past, crossed all the lines.

The difference now is that I care more about myself and don't balance fear with fatalism like I used to. So I am more selective and less careless. I Top bareback. I bottom bareback with my Poz but undetectible lover who is meticulous about his regimen and viral load. I have tested negative for the past three years of this practice. I don't bottom bareback for fellas I don't know and discuss HIV status with a new partner before getting involved. My situation is somewhat different in that I am very ambivalent about surviving more than 25 years

The age factor: At 20 becoming HIV+ probably shortens life. 25 years only brings you to age 45, which in many ways is a golden age for a gay man. If you keep in shape your love life can be full of fun while and you have grown out of bothering with concerns of fear, guilt, and couldn't give a flying fruitbat about what other people think. At 70...One might say what the hell! How long do I have anyway? For me at 45, well it's a little of both, frankly. I personally don't want to live past 75 so risk to me is not entirely a huge loss of quality living...again theoretically.

But none of these addresses Accountability for possibly infecting others. Weighing that risk against Desire for intimacy by you and the other fella who is just like you, in this imperfect world is very often ignored by both. If you care about someone and share more than rutting sex, I think it is more likely you will look out for your buddy. However I have seen both parties mutually act otherwise with regularity. I believe that if you cultivate compassion for yourself, you will reduce potential for harm.

[psycho_drama]

Originally Posted by Jordan0517

so the gay population introduced the disease but do we know how the disease began? i guess what i want to know is if two guys have sex..and neither one of them has aids or hiv..then can they get the disease (this is without a condom of course). i could be wrong but it sounds like aids got started with two men having sex anally..but i could be wrong. i just want to know as much as possible you know.

Maybe you misunderstood me, Gay men do not get the disease merely by having sex. the disease is spread in semen, breastmilk(women), blood, vaginal and anal secretions. babies can also be born with it, because the virus can cross the placental barrier. positive mothers who get on antivirals can reduece the chance of spreading it to their children if it caught early enough. and a c-section also reduces the risk for the child of contracting it.

The disease it self could not show symptoms for years and some may not know they have it until they start showing symptoms. so by having unprotected sex you are putting your self at great risk. The disease is believed to have come from the bush meat trade in Africa.(eating local animals because you have nothing else, and sometims chimps were on the menu) some chimpanzees are infected with a similar virus called SIV(simian immodefieciency virus) during the butching process a persons hands would become nicked and other small cuts, mixing the chimps blood. over time the virus could have made the jump to humans with enough exposure, considering we are two percent diffent from chimps.

also other things like not knowing how the virus was spread or even it existed when vaccines in the 1930's for disease like polio and the like were given in africa, some times the same needle was used again and again thus making a few people infected, hundreds of people infected.

The virus was found first in america in a gay man in 1981, and since then it has been called a gay disease in error. Gay people are not the progeneters of this disease. this is the best theory of the origin of the virus that has been offered to date.

So, no the virus did not originate because two men had sex, nor is it god's punishment, it is evolution. The virus evolved and gained access to a new species. and it is passed through a behavior that is hardwired into our genes, gay or not. and since we are animals capable of changing our behavior through learing, we can incorperate safe sex practices in to that behavior, getting regular testing, wearing a condom, talking to your sexual partner about condoms and caring about your self enough to use them.

Also for more info got the cdc.gov web site

[tymejumper]

The info I have states that actually over in Africa, it is considered a straight disease. I work with HIV patients, and have a few friends that are. It always surprises me that people are so afraid of getting it from hugging or kissing. I supose, as Scott pointed out, you could get it from kissing, but the risk is so low to be laughable. There are a few main ways for you to contract HIV

Unprotected sex. Use a condom every single time. Body fluids spread it.

Sharing needles. Don't. Can't say this enough, if you have to shoot, then at least use a clean needle. Or flush it with bleach. HIV is a very delicate virus and dies almost instantly upon contact with surfaces that are not body fluids. Bleach kills it instantly.

Anal sex. Only unprotected anal sex, cause ya know what? hetero couples do that also. Use a condom, enough said.

Gay people are not at a higher risk than heteros. I truly believe its the fact that this newer generation of gay men have grown up with HIV the 'treatable' disease that they give it no thought about barebacking and risky behaviors. Many also feel that they are going to get it, thanks to the lies that have been propegated by the government (read right wing conservatives) about how those dirty sick morally depraved gay people have brought a disease into the straight society...blah blah blah......so they do not take steps to avoid it like they should. Apparently it is spreading in the young african-american crowd because being gay, and black, is considered a terrible thing. More so than what white gay people have to go through(double minority)many black young men are on the LD and they don't use protection.

Lesson to be learned. Use a condom. Every time. No excuses.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

The info I have states that actually over in Africa, it is considered a straight disease. I work with HIV patients, and have a few friends that are. It always surprises me that people are so afraid of getting it from hugging or kissing. I supose, as Scott pointed out, you could get it from kissing, but the risk is so low to be laughable. There are a few main ways for you to contract HIV

Unprotected sex. Use a condom every single time. Body fluids spread it.

Sharing needles. Don't. Can't say this enough, if you have to shoot, then at least use a clean needle. Or flush it with bleach. HIV is a very delicate virus and dies almost instantly upon contact with surfaces that are not body fluids. Bleach kills it instantly.

Anal sex. Only unprotected anal sex, cause ya know what? hetero couples do that also. Use a condom, enough said.

Gay people are not at a higher risk than heteros. I truly believe its the fact that this newer generation of gay men have grown up with HIV the 'treatable' disease that they give it no thought about barebacking and risky behaviors. Many also feel that they are going to get it, thanks to the lies that have been propegated by the government (read right wing conservatives) about how those dirty sick morally depraved gay people have brought a disease into the straight society...blah blah blah......so they do not take steps to avoid it like they should. Apparently it is spreading in the young african-american crowd because being gay, and black, is considered a terrible thing. More so than what white gay people have to go through(double minority)many black young men are on the LD and they don't use protection.

Lesson to be learned. Use a condom. Every time. No excuses.

In renewal of my medical license I am researching medical literature. I came across the latest medical literature review on HIV transmission patched below.

Originally Posted by Up To Date

Last literature review version 17.3: September 2009 | This topic last updated: October 9, 2009


INTRODUCTION — Individuals who are exposed to HIV outside of the occupational setting, such as through sexual exposure or sharing needles, should undergo management to reduce the risk of infection, although it is unclear how best to manage patients who are frequently or continually exposed to HIV.


The recommendations in this topic are largely based on United States CDC guidelines. The most updated versions of the CDC guidelines are available at: aidsinfo.nih.gov/guidelines/.

RISK OF TRANSMISSION OF HIV

Sexual, needle, and trauma exposure — The exact risk of transmission of HIV with sexual exposure or sharing needles is not known. However, the risk with a s

transmission of HIV with sexual exposure or sharing needles is not known. However, the risk with a single such exposure is probably lower than many patients and providers assume. A cost-effectiveness analysis of PEP reviewed a number of sources and used the following estimates, assuming a source with untreated HIV infection [1]:
· Receptive anal intercourse — 2 percent
· Receptive vaginal intercourse — 0.1 percent
· Insertive anal or vaginal intercourse — 0.06 percent
· Receptive oral sex with a male partner — 0.04 percent
· Other sexual exposure — 0.004 percent
· Needle or syringe sharing — 0.3 percent
· Bite or assault — 0.004 percent
These numbers are imprecise, particularly for the lower risk events, although others have made similar estimates (table 1) [2,3]. The probability of HIV acquisition from a source whose HIV status is unknown would equal the likelihood the source is HIV-positive multiplied by the likelihood of transmission (as listed above). As an example, the prevalence of HIV infection in men aged 18 to 39 in the NHANES study was 0.37 percent [4]. Thus, the risk of transmission following a single episode of receptive vaginal intercourse would be approximated by multiplying 0.0037 times 0.001 for an estimate of 0.000037 (ie, 1 in ~37,000).
This estimate would depend on the likelihood that the source is HIV positive; this possibility varies by gender, age, ethnicity and other factors such as drug use. In addition, the risk of transmission appears to be affected by the stage of disease (acute HIV seroconversion or advanced AIDS) and by viral load; the risk of sexual transmission is also increased by traumatic injury and by the presence of genital lesions [5,6]. The viral load in the source is especially important since prior studies in discordant couples have shown a 2.5 fold increase in the risk of transmission for each log increase in viral load [7]; with a viral load < 1000 copies/mL (as seen with most treated patients), there were no transmissions.
There are no documented cases of HIV being transmitted bykissing.

In short, While using a condom every time is the best way to prevent transmission, I feel it is important to educate other options for prevention.

One time receptive anal sex with an HIV positive untreated man, the highest risk sexual activity for transmission, has a 1 in 50 chance of infection with HIV.

While no longer universally fatal, HIV is commonly fatal and a damn dangerous and life-complicating disease. Also Survival benefits depend heavily on early detection by testing followed by treatment

So Would you Drive on the highway without a seat belt? (A lot less than 1:50 risk of death)

On the other hand, Not every male is sexually functional with a condom.
The "use a condom every time no excuses postition" for such individual's comes across as a little like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no" approach for such men.

...And some people ride motorcycles on the highway.--(no seat belt)


If you know your partner(s) you can reduce risk of transmission. Ask yourself knowing the risk, "is the risk acceptable and is this worthwhile intimacy before engaging in bareback anal sex?"

If the answer is no, then move on. If it is yes then at least you are not making a fatalistic all or none risk decision.

(Just as a motorcyclist can wear helmet to reduce potential for fatal or disabling injury)

Live freely and don't fear to love. I recommend being reasonably careful for yourself and others. We do not have to choose fatalistic unaccountablity to have intimacy.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

In short, While using a condom every time is the best way to prevent transmission, I feel it is important to educate other options for prevention.

One time receptive anal sex with an HIV positive untreated man, the highest risk sexual activity for transmission, has a 1 in 50 chance of infection with HIV.

While no longer universally fatal, HIV is commonly fatal and a damn dangerous and life-complicating disease. Also Survival benefits depend heavily on early detection by testing followed by treatment

So Would you Drive on the highway without a seat belt? (A lot less than 1:50 risk of death)

On the other hand, Not every male is sexually functional with a condom.
The "use a condom every time no excuses postition" for such individual's comes across as a little like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no" approach for such men.

...And some people ride motorcycles on the highway.--(no seat belt)


If you know your partner(s) you can reduce risk of transmission. Ask yourself knowing the risk, "is the risk acceptable and is this worthwhile intimacy before engaging in bareback anal sex?"

If the answer is no, then move on. If it is yes then at least you are not making a fatalistic all or none risk decision.

(Just as a motorcyclist can wear helmet to reduce potential for fatal or disabling injury)

Live freely and don't fear to love. I recommend being reasonably careful for yourself and others. We do not have to choose fatalistic unaccountablity to have intimacy.

Sorry if I came off a bit over zelous with the condom wear!

I do have to agree with you that we need to make decisions on if we have sex or not by how risky is it? Things such as do we know this partner? Do we have a commited relationship with this person? Can we trust this person?

There is no reason to fear love or intimacy. However, good comon sense should prevail. My admonishment of wear a condom every time was aimed at the men who would go bar to bar or into any high risky situations and not know a partners history or care to find out, just notch his bedpost. Condoms still remains the best way to lower your risk for HIV, but it does not prevent it 100%. The idea behind it is to cut your risk as much as possible. You and I know this. However, the general populace does not know this, and they take the attitude of "gonna get it and die so there ya go, dont have to be safe...." Education is key, but still many will eschew it entirely.

I also realize that there are men whom can not perform with condoms, for legitimate reasons, but to be honest with ourselves, some of the lack of condoms use is pure laziness, selfishness and not wanting to be put out about it. You have to weight your risk factors and decide how safe it is to do that behavior.

As for driving on the highway without a seatbelt? No way! I actually use mine every time. Not a closet risk taker I guess. .

[Alecto]

It's kind of a small matter, I guess, and maybe should be going into a new topic? But you seem a little judgey, tyme, about non-committed sexual relationships. Not all men who go bar to bar are just notching their bedpost, and I do think that temporary, honest intimacy is still legitimate intimacy.

Non-committed sex IS riskier, definitely (which is why I tend to agree with you and lean towards requiring condoms), but something about the way you phrased that made it sound as though you think these people to be...selfish. And that's just not always the case.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Alecto

It's kind of a small matter, I guess, and maybe should be going into a new topic? But you seem a little judgey, tyme, about non-committed sexual relationships. Not all men who go bar to bar are just notching their bedpost, and I do think that temporary, honest intimacy is still legitimate intimacy.

Non-committed sex IS riskier, definitely (which is why I tend to agree with you and lean towards requiring condoms), but something about the way you phrased that made it sound as though you think these people to be...selfish. And that's just not always the case.

Hmmm, not stating myself for a third time. I think this matter has been taken out of context.

I am not entirely certain how judgement got put into this whole matter, but so be it.

Much Metta

[Alecto]

Didn't mean to add drama. I'm not offended by anything you said, and I don't even think I meant to single you out, but the phrasing of something you said brought to mind that that might be a conversation worth having.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Alecto

Didn't mean to add drama. I'm not offended by anything you said, and I don't even think I meant to single you out, but the phrasing of something you said brought to mind that that might be a conversation worth having.

Thank you for explaining your meaning. My post was not in any way meant to be judgemental. I guess I was a bit more short than I usually am because I had a rough day at work, and it kinda splattered on the internet.