question about marriage

[Spinning_fiend]

So growing up as a girl you dream about marriage. You look at your parents (or other couples) as models and hope that some day (if you're lucky) that you can have a lifelong relationship.

Though I haven't been disillusioned to the point of believing that once married everything's roses, I do view marriage as something sacred. I believe that this is a bond meant by God as a partnership. I don't expect that every season of my life as a married person (if I ever get married) will be filled with romance, because I believe that romance in a relationship is secondary to friendship. Personally, I would live a celibate life with someone I truly admired and respected and wanted to care for over any kind of passion. If I've learned anything in my life it's that romantic passion/love/lust (whatever you want to call it) is limited. And sex, though great, is a perk to life, not something required in it. But those views aside, it's not what everyone seems to want or believe.

I've heard stories of couples married for years and splitting up because one is gay, maybe "cheated" with someone of the same sex, and leaves their spouse and children to pursue their separate life. This is something I have a really hard time deciphering. Who is the victim? The G/L person? The spouse (and maybe children)? Society? Or all of the above? But who is accountable for what?

As a straight woman (I'm not speaking for all straight women of course) I would feel like the victim if my husband left me for a man, or a woman. Not because I would question myself doing something wrong, but because I would feel lied to and abandoned. Am I wrong to feel that way? Is it really all that different to be left for a man or a woman? Aren't the actions still the same?

Then again, I wouldn't want to be with a man who felt trapped being with me... but I guess it's the actions that get to me. Why does it seem like when gay people do it it's alright? That they are the victims, not the ones being left? Does marriage and family account for part of the decision of leaving? Does your responsibility lie with your spouse and family first before sexual urges?

I'm not meaning to point fingers I'm just looking for perspective. I've been given a rigid view of what marriage is and I'm trying to redefine it, so please be gentle with me!

Oh, I guess a good point of reference would be the song Billy Brown by MIKA. It was the song that kind of spurred me into questioning about this whole thing.

[Daniel]

Hi there. There's a lot in your post in respond to. And btw, welcome.

I'll take things as they occurred to me as I read your post.

1) that your husband is gay, right? Or you suspect he is gay?

2) he's getting affirmation for coming out? And that is burning you up inside?

Ok. Neither of the above may be true, but it would explain some of what you write.

You mention that you would be Ok with being celibate and that others have contradicted you on this.

My sense is that women can get along with an emotional connection - and have that be their food- a good deal more than men can. A difference of genders?

Does society seem to affirm the gay man who is coming out and leaving a marriage with a woman? Well. I guess that depends who you are talking to. Fundamentalist Christians? Nope. Liberal Episcopalians? Probably. I guess it would depend on one's world view, beliefs and upbringing. Does one get points for sticking in a marriage that is loveless, that is, is non-sexual? I guess that depends on one's beliefs too.

Sex is energy. It's like a river. Very hard to control, stop, turn to a different direction- if at all. And even the reparative people are realizing that the best they can do is turn off the faucet, not re-direct it.

I feel for you. It's very painful to love someone who doesn't love you back, at least, not in the way that you may have dreamed and hoped they would.

Some couples stick it out for the kids. My own observation is that, if this isn't a mutual and self-affirming decision, it's bound to be soul-killing for one partner. Why? Because there is another energy - a person if you will- in the room. And it's hard to be two when there is three, when either partner is missing something.

Lust and Love isn't just a perk. At least not for the vast majority of people. I think you know this. And my question to you is what lies underneath your feelings? What leads you to write this? Have you tried to stop your own feeling and desires in order to maintain an untenable situation?

If so, that is very hard indeed. My repsonse is to tell you that opening one's heart to one's own pain can be- and often is- very hard to bear. But there is no other way to get through it. The river of your feelings is just as wide and strong as those of a gay man who is realizing that he's made a muddle of things with a woman he loves but doesn't love in the same way that he does another man.

[Spinning_fiend]

Haha, no I'm not married, and don't have a gay husband. But I believe if I did I would willingly let him pursue a life a happiness.

But, I am speaking from vicarious experience. My Uncle left my aunt a few years ago and all I have seen is hardship in their lives since. My cousin has been seeking out new male role models. It's amazing to see how dramatic her life has changed without her dad. She went from gifted youth (seriously, first chair flautist, top percentile of her class), to college drop out, single mom, going from man to man to man to find comfort. Her mom works two jobs to support her daughter and grandson. A librarian by day and McDonald's burger flipper by night. It's so sad. Now I'm hearing my Uncle may not let them keep the house because it's still in his name, so they will probably have to find a new place to live. He's seen his grandson a handful of times. They were married for almost 30 years. It's crazy to me that a once involved father can drop every responsibility and be accepted in the gay community there as a victim (so I hear), and meanwhile throw away a life that he built.

So yeah, in a sense you were right. I know my feelings are a little misguided. I don't believe that every GLBT person will believe that what he did/is doing is fine, but it does burn me up that people are okay supporting him while he does nothing for his family. I don't think I would mind so much if he was an involved parent. I have a friend who's dad came out to his family of 30+ years and they were completely supportive and accepting of him. His ex-wife is actually an activist in soulforce. I also have another Uncle on my other side of the family who has been in a loving relationship with his husband for my whole life. I can't imagine them apart and would never advise them not to be together. I just sometimes wonder if parts of people's stories are swept under the rug for the sake of change.

Do we live in a time where living for ourselves is greater than our responsibilities? Obviously, in a family the goal should always be for the welfare of every individual in the family, but when one's happiness is taking over every other person's welfare what do we do? If he goes on to be a great supporter of the gay community does that justify what he's done to his family? Or, does even living thirty years of a lie itself justify his actions? Is he truly the victim of the situation? If they think what he's doing is disgusting does that justify his actions? Does he then lose responsibility to them?

[Alecto]

So, it sounds like you've heard of one instance where the person in question was kind of a stinker, and you're asking if he should be "excused" for that (legally? Morally? Socially?). Knowing only the details as you've expressed them, the answer is kind of a no. I'll be honest and say that I haven't really run into that much; I've met a few people who left heterosexual marriages, to varying types of ongoing relationships with their exes. But the people I've met have maintained relationships with their children and fulfilled any familial responsibilities.

You ask who the victim is, and the truth of the matter is that yeah, there's multiple victims here. If society weren't as screwed up as it is, people wouldn't be afraid to explore that part of themselves well before they got married. I won't say this would never happen, cause I think for some people sexuality is more fluid, but it would certainly happen a lot less. The heterosexual partner is also a victim too, but I don't know that they're a victim "of" the non-hetero partner. They joined into this person's life, and society dealt them a wallup for it too.

As far as children are concerned, there are studies that show that, in general terms, if two people are in a position where they want a divorce and really don't think that the relationship works on its own, their children are better off if they get one. If "for the kids" is the only reason you're staying together, you're not doing them any favors.

There's a few people on the boards who were (and some who are) in mixed-orientation marriages; I'm sure you'll be hearing from them.

I guess my summary is that it's like a lot of social justice problems: the specific circumstances, you just do the best you can with them and try to work on the bigger institutional problems to keep that from continuing to happen in the future.

[Pablo Rafael]

Hello Fiend,

You ask about who is the victim in the case of a mixed orientation marriage falling apart. I think there are two sets of victims. In my experience the situation has always been a gay man married to a straight woman. The man has "come out" and oftentimes (not always) the marriage falls apart.

Of course the straight woman is the primary victim. She has been deceived, and through no fault of her own, troubles have descended. Generally I think that the wife either knows or suspects that the husband is gay.

The man is also a victim in a way. Societal pressures are very great. When I was younger, it seemed there were only two options, either stay single all one's life (my choice) or try to make a heterosexual marriage work. The option of a gay relationship was just totally unthinkable for me. (Thankfully the younger generation is more liberated in that regard.) I strongly considered trying to make a go of a straight marriage. I thought that I could pull it off. My sexual orientation was far far in the closet. It would not have been at all fair to the woman I would have married.

I have not heard of a single instance where a mixed marriage fell apart, and the gay man thought he was not to blame. I can't say anything regarding your uncle's situation except to think that maybe he is an exception to the norm.

If you are into reading on the subject there are a couple of great books that are captivating reading that deal at least partly with this very topic. First is Stranger at the Gate by Mel White and second is In the Eye of the Storm by Gene Robinson.

BTW, my boyfriend and I have a wedding planned in the near (I hope) future. It is certainly the right way to go for me; I have no doubt.

Tu Amigo,
Pablo

[keltic63]

I guess I should weigh in on this thread: I'm one of the guys who was in a straight marriage, left, divorced, and now married to a man.

it is true that guys like me are often regarded as being brave, honored, etc for finally being truthful about their orientation. I think that, too often, the straight wives are not given much support, and I know that they often have a sense of embarassment about the situation.

That said, there is some other side that we aren't looking at, and it is the straight partner's role in the marriage. I struggled for years about my "deception" of my (now ex) wife. That is, until someone pointed out that I am obviously gay, and that on some level, my ex had to know she was marrying a gay man. Later conversations with my ex did indeed reveal that she knew I was gay and married me anyway. In some way, she was complicit with the deceptive marriage. think of it as a covert contract, totally unspoken. I benefitted by appearing straight and I got to have children, at least until I could no longer live that lie. But what was her part of the contract? she must have benefitted in some way. I can't speak for my ex about what that might be, but there was definitely a reason that she married a man that she suspected of being gay, and for some reason she was ok with that.

I don't have a great relationship with my ex, but I do have a fantastic relationship with my kids. I know several other gay men in the same situation and all of the gay dads I know are good fathers who are involved in their childrens' lives.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Spinning_fiend

Now I'm hearing my Uncle may not let them keep the house because it's still in his name, so they will probably have to find a new place to live. He's seen his grandson a handful of times. They were married for almost 30 years. It's crazy to me that a once involved father can drop every responsibility and be accepted in the gay community there as a victim (so I hear), and meanwhile throw away a life that he built.


Do we live in a time where living for ourselves is greater than our responsibilities?

And I gotta say: there is NO gay community any more than there is a straight community.

People are people. Some do great things. And some do shitty things. And just because your uncle is getting some affirmation from some friends because he is living as a gay man doesn't mean much, any more than a straight couple who gets married and clean up at the wedding with all the presents they get is any better. Same thing, different scenario.

I hear that you resent your uncle. Ok. Fair and square. Have you told him your feelings?

My feeling is that philosophical musing are fine and dandy, but if something is bugging the hell out of you, you might think about what you can do about the situation.

Have you talked to your uncle about his experience with his wife and family? Or are you just on the sidelines with an opinion?

The pain of living a lie isn't easily gotten over for anyone involved. It's painful. Very very painful. Some people react well in the wake of a breakup, others do not. Some gay men act like adolescents, some do not. It's a crap shoot. Depends on upbringing and many other variables.

We're individuals. Not a community. I wish this was understood better. We don't all act alike. We don't all wear the same clothes, see the same movies, or like interior decoration.

We are people just like everyone else. We act badly. And we act divinely.

Hopefully, we are all evolving in such a way as to be more compassionate with each other.

[Alecto]

I would argue one major point with you, Danial; it's not that there is NO gay community (like there's no straight community), it's that there's NUMEROUS gay communities (like there's numerous straight communities). Small wording difference, but I feel like it's a major difference in the way we think about people.

[BenL]

This discussion brings up a lot of loaded concepts, such as fidelity, honesty, trust, love vs. lust.

My experience in online groups for mixed orientation marriages suggests anecdotely that a large majority of them are made up of straight women and gay men. A small minority of the couples I encountered were lesbian/straight men combinations.

The hard fact is that only a very small percentage of these marriages survive more than five years after one person comes out as gay. Many of them end in divorce within a year, and that divorce is often very bitter.

The crux of the problem for most of the straight partners is the feeling of being betrayed and lied to. Some of the gay partners have only recently come to grips with their own homosexuality or opposite sex attraction. Others have known for most of their lives that they were gay but because of religious or societal pressure entered a conventional marriage without telling their spouses. The only way such marriages can survive is for the relationship to evolve to the point where it can be renegotiated. Whether this includes physical intimacy outside of the marriage is usually the deal breaker for both straight men and straight women in mixed orientation marriages. The other thing that gives a feeling of deep betrayal is to learn that your supposed life partner no longer desires you physically, or never did to begin with. Some people remain in "love" with their spouses but claim to have "fallen out of lust."

A few thoughts on MOMs, as they're sometimes called. I could go on.

In the interests of full disclosure, my so-called mixed orientation marriage took a decidedly different turn. I came out to my fiancee as gay when we first met. We ended up becoming close friends and decided to marry because neither of us could imagine spending our lives with anyone else. Fast forward 28 years or so and my spouse came out to me as trans. He has since transitioned and we present as the gay male couple we have always been. I know now that I have always been attracted to the man trapped inside, and my whole marriage finally makes sense.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Spinning_fiend

I've heard stories of couples married for years and splitting up because one is gay, maybe "cheated" with someone of the same sex, and leaves their spouse and children to pursue their separate life. This is something I have a really hard time deciphering. Who is the victim? The G/L person? The spouse (and maybe children)? Society? Or all of the above? But who is accountable for what?

As a straight woman (I'm not speaking for all straight women of course) I would feel like the victim if my husband left me for a man, or a woman. Not because I would question myself doing something wrong, but because I would feel lied to and abandoned. Am I wrong to feel that way? Is it really all that different to be left for a man or a woman? Aren't the actions still the same?

Then again, I wouldn't want to be with a man who felt trapped being with me... but I guess it's the actions that get to me. Why does it seem like when gay people do it it's alright? That they are the victims, not the ones being left? Does marriage and family account for part of the decision of leaving? Does your responsibility lie with your spouse and family first before sexual urges?
.

What is happening in the above situation is the Violence of Oppression

It begins when an aolescent upon the dawning of his sexual awareness is taught that he is an abomination because his attraction to and capacity for intimacy is with his own gender.

This psychological violence is profound and far reaching. Because of fear of losing all he knows and loves; family, friends survival a career he is held hostage and betrays his own heart by living counter to his basic nature.

The violence done to him turns inward and he commits violence upon himself. If he gets married, inevitably this violence is collateralized to the others to whom he is close (wife children and others)

All this begins with the violence of oppression that a parent or religious leader or our ignorant society has surrogated upon the adolescent.

This is why I have found that practicing nonviolence is a must in order to end sufferiing.

Nonviolence starts with "I"

I will not allow oppression to harm me and cause me to harm myself, because inevitably it will collateralize to others.

The answer is compassion, forgiveness and lovingkindness. The gay husband married in a straight life must have compassion for his own heart, stop betryaing it and live ture to it. He needs to ask his own heart for forgiveness for that betrayal so his heart can trust his conscious mind.

He must feel compassion for the suffering that the violence done to him that has been surrogated and collateralized to the woman he married and others. He must ask forgiveness from them.

He cannot continue to betray his heart; the violence will simply collateralize again to others.

I am by nature a polyamorous male with capacity for intimacy with men. I have five people that I am in love with. I am true to my lovers and give my heart and passion unfettered. For me to have just one lover would betray my heart and collateralize it to the one(s) with whom I am intimate. I am a good lover because I live true to my heart. I would make the worst imaginable Husband to a woman, because i am neither monogamous nor do I have capacity for intimacy with a woman.

There are no mongamous primates. (Titi monkeys are sometimes monogamous but more commonly polyamorous). Our nature is the law governing all action and intent. The more intensely we go against it the more unwellness and suffering will result to all

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Alecto

I would argue one major point with you, Danial; it's not that there is NO gay community (like there's no straight community), it's that there's NUMEROUS gay communities (like there's numerous straight communities). Small wording difference, but I feel like it's a major difference in the way we think about people.

I guess it is just the way I see things: I really don't see that there is a gay community any more than there is a straight community. I see straight people and gay people- period. Do people divide themselves and congregate themselves together in terms of class, wealth, education, experience etc etc? Sure. But I don't see what this has to do with being gay or straight.

The point being made in the first post is that the gay community is doing this and that to support said person who is acting very badly.

If you take 'community' out of the assertion, what do you have? People acting compassionately or acting badly.

[tymejumper]

Having been married to a man, true a TG man, for 16 years before we divorced I am here to tell my story.

I liked girls knowing only acceptance would be if I like boys. I was pretty good at screwing any boy that came down the pike, to try to make myself straight of course. It was empty, not really enjoyable and I had pretty much decided at 17, to swear off men, because I felt I did not have the capacity to love or enjoy sex with men. In short I wondered what was wrong with me that the thought of sex with a man, actually made me cringe. I knew it to be a neccisary evil if I wanted children, (fertility treatments were not known of very well in the 80's)and I figured I had not found the right man yet(as my mother assured me). So, still trying to be 'normal' according to society rules, and with encouragement from my straight friends and family, I did date a few other men. My friend, and now ex husband, was very nice and he did make me feel safe, besides we were friends and my family approved, so I ended up married to him. I should have followed my instincts that day and not shown up at the ceremony. I talked myself into believing it was 'cold feet'.

Once married, I tried to make the best of it. My ex had been informed by others that I was a lesbian, and even if I was not yet out, it probably would not work. I took my vows seriously, I submited to the marriage bed, and sometimes it was enjoyable. It was not fufilling but then again I was operating under the premise of something being wrong with me and figured that I had married a friend so that was as good as it gets. I had also learned after the ceremony that my then husband was TG, but he was not out either. For 16 years and through 3 kids we limped along. It became a horrible nightmare of abuse, and his addiction and his infidelities.

We discussed different marriage options, such as renegotiating to an open marriage, staying for the kids and/or one of us getting a place elsewhere and then staying legally married. The abuse esclated one night and I left with my kids under police protection. I immediately filed for divorce and I vowed to be fair and kind during proceedings.

I advocated for my children and asked that he continue to stay part of the kids lives. He began to neglect them at his house with his girlfriend present and I had to get supervised visitations to protect my children. He told the kids in court that day that he would never see them again, and that it was their faults that they talked to the judge. It's been over 2 years since he has seen them. They are over it, it still is a scar to me and it always will be.

So, who I ask you is the victim in this situation? Who is at fault? If society made gay marriage legal and also accepted us for who we are and how God made us, this would not have happened. It would cease happening to others also. I can only tell you one thing I know for sure. Those of us that are gay, marry with good intent, we marry our friends and have intentions of making it work and being happy. We do not marry to lie and hurt someone, to destroy people. Most of us stay far longer than we should to prevent hurt to our families and mates. We struggle and sometimes because the pain is so bad, we kill oursleves. Everyday we die a little more inside, become scarred a little more inside and hate ourselves a little more inside.

Althought it sounds like your Uncle is a crapper, it is not his fault that your cousin goes man to man, what you saw as a devoted family man may have been an act for your benefit. The fact that your cousin is going man to man, leads me to believe that something far deeper than a divorce caused her pain and the need to find solace in many men.

I hope you find peace and understanding. Much Metta

[tdogg]

Spinning fiend, there are always two sides to every story (and most often the truth lies somewhere in between), so as another poster suggested, you should give your uncle a chance to tell his story. There probably are many issues that you are no aware of which may have affected his ability or desire to remain a part of anyone's life. It does not necessarily mean he is not wrong, or even not right, but he does have his side of the story.

If this situation bothers you enough, then you should try to engage him in conversation. Keep an open mind and try not to be judgmental. If you had a good relationship he may open up. If not, then maybe not but at least you tried.