Are there any Christians on this site anymore?

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Firstly, I find your "C" versus "c" to be a false dichotomy.

How does it appear to be a false dichotomy? I truly apologize for my unskillful attempt to offer something of positive value.



Secondly, I was curious as to why you felt the need to define something that you clearly are not.

Because I keep my mind open and allow the thought disciplines of other people into my thinking so that I can understand them better. In particular I see the religious right using gay christians' own faith to cause self-loathing. By claiming to "know" that Christ condems gay folk for living true to their capacity for intimacy with the same gender, they are acting as proxy (speaking for him by "official" authorization).

My intent by introducing this dichotomy Of Christian versus christan is to offer a distinction between believing in Christ without having to also accept homophobic condemnation from a church.

The purpose is to suggest a tool to help the gay christian let go of the self condemnation activated by unskilled words from a church leader yet still keep his/her faith.

Believe it or not my Godparents are devout christians. They practice to the best of their capacity love and forgiveness. I have never heard a single word about sin or abomination in the 43 years that I have known them. It is part of what makes them two of the most beautiful people I know in the world. I know that christianity can also be used to nurture gay people and not always to condemn them because I have received such from my Godparents.

While like Rick, I do not have a metaphysical belief that Christ was anything more than a human possessed of rare genius, I find that his assertion that every being has the capacity and entitlement to love and be loved unconditionally, to be a touchstone. I find touchstones in many different thought paradigms contained within varied religious metaphysical constructs. I don't have to convince myself that all of the paradigm is true in order to embrace a touchstone within it.

Ths is why I allow into my awareness other folks' religious insights. I consider someone's faith to be a part of their mind created by their mind. Since I have begun mindful awareness meditation (Vipassana), I have begun to see the beauty and magnificence of my own mind. Since becoming aware of my own mind I have become aware of the beauty and magnificence of the minds of the people I encounter --and their faith is part of that beauty.

To me, metaphysical reality of a belief is unimportant. I see no value in proving or disproving it. If it reveals a touchstone, it is valuable to me. If it causes suffering, it is worthless and I allow it to leave the focus of my consciousness.

I hope this post is not as unskillful as my previous ones in this thread. I never had intent to cause negative feelings or offense. Quite the opposite. I was and still am attempting to help folks, in some small way, to more easily learn to let go of suffering.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

Or imaginary atheistic beliefs, for that matter.

Originally Posted by Rick336

You've lost me here. How does this relate to imaginary religious beliefs?



Both are merely models used to understand obeservations. Neither is actally reality



So far, science has found no evidence that awareness exists outside of a human or animal brain. Since hickory trees and crescent wrenches lack a brain, logic tells me that they probably have no awareness.



I think the chances of a crescent wrench sensing anything is 0%. I don't know if the hickory trees can sense light, water, and temperature, but I doubt it.



I can sense light, water, and temperature.



The only similarities I have to crescent wrenches and hickory trees is that we are all made from the same atoms.



I would have to say that since a coral reef can't think, it probably has no clue about the forest. Same goes for the forest about the reef.

I did not intend to suggest that a reef was aware of a forest. Imeant that a reef in some uncharacterizeable way, appears to have an awareness arising from the connected awareness of the living organisms that are its components

The valleys, however, think the mountains are high on drugs.


Rick

Because a Hickory tree will grow toward and orient itself in response to light or water or react to insect invasion while a crescent wrench will not, I conclude that, on some level, it is aware.

I am convinced that it is an awareness different than ours that we could not possbly begin to characterize, but a reaction to these things in a living organism certainly suggests the appearance of awareness. We share 90% of the same genes in common with hickory trees and we have awareness.

Empiricism is a solid thought method, but belief in nonexistence of anything that isn't proven to you seems more like nihilism. Practicing nihilism in my moment to moment thoughts was something I did for many years. It killed any sense of wonder or appreciation.

Adrain, my Heart Brother, questioned my nihilistic belief that my "mind" was mereley predictable electrochemical reactions. He showed me the art and emotions he created with photograpy. Art arises from shared awareness of two beings. This put a chink in my nihilistic armor. Bit by bit beauty and wonder and appreciation returned to my day to day life experience.

The mystery of how a forest functions as an ecosystem with each of its living components interacting certainly appears to possess awareness on some uncharacterizeable level. The fact that humans are not able to characterize something using a tool of empiricism does not prove nonexistence. So if something appears to have awareness and it cannot be disproven, which discipline of thought is most compatible with a healthy mind? Nihilism and assumption of nonexistence or allowiing the benefit of the doubt to evoke mystery, wonder and appreciation?

For me it is the latter; opening my mind, to the possiblity of a mysterious wonder.

Obsession with Metaphysical accuracy blocks the potential for experiencing life. An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

I agree that following a belief system that seems absurd is valueless, but allowing your mind to be open to the possibility of something not absurd but not provable can lead to discovery.

[Daniel]

I like the direction of your thought, especially the following....

Originally Posted by Scotty

Empiricism is a solid thought method, but belief in nonexistence of anything that isn't proven to you seems more like nihilism.

I would call this the out of mind of sight school. If it can't be proven, then it can't exist. Funny then, that so much of what we take for granted, like electricity, can't be proven either- that is- it exists, but no one has any idea how it works. Am I making a case of God? No. But I like to think there there is ample wiggle room in the universe for things that are 'real' but not understood. Just because we don't understand them, or can't prove them, doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Like you, I believe that keeping one's awareness open is what leads to discovery.

Doubt is an exceedingly good thing. It leads to the path less trodden.

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

Really?

I'll take my chances with poetry over a test tube any day.

'Course, I never was any good at science anyway....

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Obsession with Metaphysical accuracy blocks the potential for experiencing life. An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

I agree that following a belief system that seems absurd is valueless, but allowing your mind to be open to the possibility of something not absurd but not provable can lead to discovery.

I can offer something anecdotal here. One of my co-worker buds is pretty much a rabid atheist. As long as I don't use the G-word we pretty much agree on everything. I see what I call Spirit shining right out of the man's eyes. His wife and He are childless but they do dog rescue. My personal feeling is that you can learn a lot about unconditional love from a dog. My best friend and his partner have two dogs. I guess I'm their uncle. They seem determined to lick my eyebrows off every time I see them.

I see what I would call empirical evidence all the time but acknowledge that it might not appear as such to anyone else. In my faith God is all there is but I know I can't define it in anyone else's life. My feeling is It becomes personal to you, through you, as you.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Empiricism is a solid thought method, but belief in nonexistence of anything that isn't proven to you seems more like nihilism.

Please define what nihilism means to you because my definition of nihilism means rejection of everything as being real. That does not describe me.

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

I agree that atheists and fundamentalists can be equally obsessed with their view of reality. But what does this have to do with the existence or non-existence of the supernatural?

I can find hundreds of examples of how fundamentalist are "off the mark" of what reality is. But I'm curious about us atheists being off that mark. Can you give me examples including evidence to support the examples?

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

The fact that humans are not able to characterize something using a tool of empiricism does not prove nonexistence.

Nor does wishing and hoping that something exists prove its existence. Many people want ghosts to exist because the existence of ghosts is exciting and mysterious and spooky. Others want angels to exists because they believe angels are God's helpers who look after us when things go wrong. Still others want Satan to exist as an explanation for why there is so much bad stuff going on in the world.

But look around. Where are these things? Shouldn't logic and common sense tell us that if something is invisible and has no trustworthy evidence to support its existence that it probably isn't real? Just because lots of people believe that something is true doesn't mean that it is true.

Most adults over the age of 50 in the United States in 2009 believe that Lee Harvey Oswalt did not work alone when he assassinated President Kennedy in November 1963. Even after years of intense investigation and hundreds of interviews and hard physical evidence shows otherwise they continue to hold onto this belief. They refuse to believe Oswalt was the lone gunman because for one insane person to kill the president seems so random and senseless. They believe there's got to be more to it than that. A conspiracy just makes more sense. It also makes the story more exciting. And since so many Americans believe in the conspiracy theory, then they figure that it must be true. And besides, there was that movie.

Is reality so boring that we need conspiracy theories and ghosts and faeries and ESP to make it more exciting? Or is reality so frightening that we need make-believe gods and angels and aliens to save us from it?

For me, I don't need a magical make-believe world to make life more livable. I find the real world right in front of me to be beautiful, mysterious and adventurous all on its own. And I know that I can face the challenges of life with confidence because my survival up to this point is proof of it.

At night I can step out into my front yard and look up at a universe full of stars and planets and it thrills me knowing that I am part of it all. I can visit the Grand Canyon and be in awe of the millions of years it took to create it. I can enjoy a child's excitement of Christmas or the laughter with family or friends or a walk through a shower of golden leaves on a cool November afternoon.

The way I see it, we are all here for a very short time. And when we're gone, we will be forgotten. Fifty years after we die, few, if any will know or care that we ever existed at all. The most important thing is that we're alive now and that we enjoy the present.

Hoping that another life exists after we die doesn't mean it does. The fact that millions of people believe in an afterlife doesn't make it real. Only evidence makes it real and so far there is absolutely no evidence that we survive death to live forever in another world.

What we know for sure is that this life is what we have now. Enjoy it. Savor it. Celebrate it. Soak it in. But whatever you do, don't miss it by being distracted with anticipation of an even better party later.

This is the party! And it will end much sooner than you think.



Rick

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Rick336

The way I see it, we are all here for a very short time. And when we're gone, we will be forgotten. Fifty years after we die, few, if any will know or care that we ever existed at all. The most important thing is that we're alive now and that we enjoy the present.

One of the more annoying things about certain denominations is their view that "now" is hell and the real party begins after death. It's a sad orientation and, frankly, a waste. That said, I don't believe there is anything necessarily inconsistent with theistic belief and enjoying the present. There certainly isn't for me.

In terms of us being forgotten, as a genealogist, I feel something spiritual-y when I learn more about people I never knew, but without whom I wouldn't be here. Not only haven't I forgotten them, I'm actively seeking to learn more about them. It's fascinating and connects me to the past. Jews actively incorporate remembering their dead into each religious service, especially noting the yahrzeit (death anniversary) of particular people. It's a beautiful tradition that reminds us that people continue to exist in our hearts.

Originally Posted by Rick336

Hoping that another life exists after we die doesn't mean it does. The fact that millions of people believe in an afterlife doesn't make it real. Only evidence makes it real and so far there is absolutely no evidence that we survive death to live forever in another world.

Whereas it's true that no one can prove an "afterlife", we do know and can prove that our mortal coil becomes wormfood. It's the ultimate recycling. Our carbon gets folded back into the universe of other carbon. We return to a totality we never really left. What happens to the soul is another matter...however, given what we know about the cycle of physical matter, is it so far-fetched to conclude something similar for the soul? I know my father's soul continues to live in me and in others, so it's not so weird for me to extrapolate from that the notion that his soul exists outside of me as well. I can't prove it, but I find I don't need to. I like the idea that he is "with God", "with the Creator". You can call it a crutch of you like, but I prefer to think of it as a beautiful and deeply-satisfying idea.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by dsdrane

.....I don't believe there is anything necessarily inconsistent with theistic belief and enjoying the present. There certainly isn't for me.

I believe you.

As long as you're not forcing me to behave according to your view of reality, why should I care? It doesn't really matter how one finds his happiness. Life is short. If it feels good, do it.


Rick

[dsdrane]

Originally Posted by Rick336

I believe you.

As long as you're not forcing me to behave according to your view of reality, why should I care? It doesn't really matter how one finds his happiness. Life is short. If it feels good, do it.


Rick

Exactly. Yes. And amen.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Rick336

Please define what nihilism means to you because my definition of nihilism means rejection of everything as being real. That does not describe me.


To me in the context of this discussion I shared experience of my nihilism as an unwillingness to reject all unprovable ideas as nonsense, valueless, dangerous and wasting precious moments of life that could be spent in the here and now. As I mentioned before This killed any wonder or mystery in my experience


I agree that atheists and fundamentalists can be equally obsessed with their view of reality. But what does this have to do with the existence or non-existence of the supernatural?

I can find hundreds of examples of how fundamentalist are "off the mark" of what reality is. But I'm curious about us atheists being off that mark. Can you give me examples including evidence to support the examples?

I would like to share an example on a discussion between my God brother and I last year. I thought this was really cool.

A video appeared of salt water burning with a yellow flame when Radiofrequency was passed though it. The energy calculations show a total net energy output. My God brother is a Physicist and I am a medical practitioner by education so I am at a terrible disadvantage. However I also Know from practical experience that a patient with the appearance of having a srtoke but has no evidence of it on CT stlii usually is having one despite the"empiric evidence" to the contrary. Similarly The net energy equation showing a positive energy ouput using electromagnetic theory may not be a hoax.

He maintained that the whole thing is a hoax because there is never a net energy output, never! I agree I said but lets say these calculations are accurate for the sake of argument. How would you explain them?

I did some rsearch and found that a tiny fraction of Chloride is in an isotope (Cl-36) form that releases a beta particle (electron) and changes to a neutron to a proton. This changes the element fron Chlorine to Argon which is inert. If this Chlorine is attached to sodium, the sodium is suddenly un balanced in its electronic valence and becomes extremely explosive. A sodium flame is bright yellow (just like in the video)

The only last thing to verify if this is indeed occurring is: Does Radio frequency accelerate decay of Cl-36?

The energy is potential energy stored when a sun collapsed formining the Cl-36 isotope. The mass of the electron times the speed of light squared produces enough energy to generate a net positive energy output.

So My point is if I had just taken my God-brother's assertion that this whole video is a hoax because it defies electromagnetic theory, I would not have discovered a possible explanation using relativistic theory for an observation that "seems" real but is unproven.



What I did not do is use a Ouiga board or use faeries as an explanation. I used relativistic theory
My explanation is yet unproven as I cannot find anyone who knows if RF accelerates decay of Cl-36.

Sometimes having an open mind to something observed and unproven leads to discovery and wonder. The mystery of what we don't yet Understand, by embracing its possiblity is invigorating and leads to wonder!


At night I can step out into my front yard and look up at a universe full of stars and planets and it thrills me knowing that I am part of it all. I can visit the Grand Canyon and be in awe of the millions of years it took to create it. I can enjoy a child's excitement of Christmas or the laughter with family or friends or a walk through a shower of golden leaves on a cool November afternoon.

The way I see it, we are all here for a very short time. And when we're gone, we will be forgotten. Fifty years after we die, few, if any will know or care that we ever existed at all. The most important thing is that we're alive now and that we enjoy the present.

Hoping that another life exists after we die doesn't mean it does. The fact that millions of people believe in an afterlife doesn't make it real. Only evidence makes it real and so far there is absolutely no evidence that we survive death to live forever in another world.

What we know for sure is that this life is what we have now. Enjoy it. Savor it. Celebrate it. Soak it in. But whatever you do, don't miss it by being distracted with anticipation of an even better party later.

This is the party! And it will end much sooner than you think.

To the above I agree! Live in the moment!

Rick

Originally Posted by Rick336

I believe you.

As long as you're not forcing me to behave according to your view of reality, why should I care? It doesn't really matter how one finds his happiness. Life is short. If it feels good, do it.

Absolutely, and wonder of discovery using an open mind can be an invigorating part of it!


Rick

Have a great weekend!

[bnmoore]

Speaking for myself, I don't believe God is supernatural. I have run across this idea from atheists in other places and I'm just not clear on what is meant by it.

Science has already proven that it is all God to my satisfaction.

I just don't know what it is people are looking at and saying isn't.

I am a person that has experienced my own faith healings many times. I don't really care what agency they come through. It is done unto me as I believe.

[dsdrane]

I'm curious if you have any thoughts about what your thread has become.

And if your original question has been answered.

[colinashante]

this post really got me thinking especially once i started reading the responses it made me think even more. it seems to me that people no adays get caught up in the label of "Christian". I grew up in the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination and made the concious decision to leave that denomination for the same reason. People get so caught up in the identification of other christians in human social construct. which my religion and my connection with god is something that is specifically tailored to me, and that the way I express it is wrong because an outsider looking in will never know the depths of struggle on my journey to come to know god.

I really enjoyed your quote from romans up there. I had one to give you in return however the exact reference has escaped me but I think it is in matthew(maybe romans) when he is talking about how hypocrits proclaim that they are christs followers, they demonstrated on street corners how awesome at prayer and the depths of their commitment to god...but those where also the people who were buying and selling merchandise in gods temples...that passage later goes on to state the relationship between a person and god is to be done silently behind closed doors where no one can see you. its a way for you to get intimate with your creator and the god that you serve. it goes on to state fairly shortly after that that christians could identify each other because of the things that they do but od not boast about. to quote the NIV version "you have faith. I have deeds"...people today like people back in the day are so caught up in identifying as christians and linking up as christians when taking on that label(not that there is anything wrong with that because for some people it works really well for and others not so much. again going back to ones relationship to god) can be so devastating to ones faith, because of all the baggage that comes along with being a christian and that it causes such a fracture with in the cultural fabric of all gods children...

I am going to stop myself because I could go on talking about this for hours :0)

thank you! thank you! thank you for this post I have learned alot from the conversation and you from this post!

[pied piper]

Originally Posted by awediot

my post to tdogg. > Typically a Christians...


Is there anything in particular about how Christians are to treat people that hasn't been expressed by numerous other philosophers and moral teachers? If it's not a belief, but an act which singles out believers, what is the act that distinguishes them?

The difference is that the action is motivated by inspiration from God.

[koneill08]

I'm new to this site, and this thread is interesting to me. I know it's old and probably won't be responded to now, but...Thought I'd give it a try anyway.

One person asked "Is there anything in particular about how Christians are to treat people that hasn't been expressed by numerous other philosophers and moral teachers? If it's not a belief, but an act which singles out believers, what is the act that distinguishes them?"

I would have to say it's a combination of belief and acts. Because faith without works is dead, but works without faith is equally as dead, at least of any spiritual life. The act that distinguishes Christians is love. John 13:35 says "by this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

I think the essence of true christianity is spiritual. There are many things that can be learned from other "religions" that are also true for Christians. It doesn't mean their way is the right way or better way, but it does mean that we all can (regardless of our beliefs) learn something about God and share that with others and there are no property rights to what is or isn't God. Only God can do that. Each person is made differently. No two people are alike, like snowflakes. But each person is made to display something of God that nobody else in the world through time and space has ever displayed about him. He/She is infinite in His/her wonders and I don't think there is anything wrong with "adopting" parts of what another religion has learned about God. It's the take the meat and leave the bones thing, let it work for you. If it doesn't, scrap it. Of course, as one other person said, you can open up a huge can of worms with this discussion, the kind that says is there absolute truth or not. But my journey has led me to believe that there is both absolute and relative truth. And they can co-exist together. That's what makes this journey so interesting. If it was a clearly laid out black and white plan then we really would have no use for our reasoning and judgment skills would we? We would just be robots on an assembly line and life (all of life, not just individual lives) would have no purpose.

Anyway, this probably won't get responded to. Not because nobody is out there, but because it's such an old post most people won't probably look at it. But again, thought I'd give my two cents, for what they are worth in this economy!

Enjoy.

[Unmasked]

I visit infrequently, so I'm not sure that I'm even "on this site". But I attend a UCC and study the teachings of Christ. I don't believe most of the supernatural elements of the story, so I don't know where that leaves me.

[kara speltz]

First let me say, that I am a practicing Roman Catholic, an out lesbian at my parish, as well as a lay preacher.

However, I can no longer sing that hymn, "they'll know we are Christians by our love." Let explain why. Several years ago, just as the Iraqi war was starting, I traveled to Baghdad, crossing the front lines and arriving in Baghdad, prior to the occupation of the capital.

We spent several days there and visited sites that had been bombed the day previous to our visit. We saw literally hundreds and hundreds of Iraqis milling around observing the devastation of American bombs on their homes.

Not a single Iraqi was anything but welcoming to us. And even more amazing experience occurred as we traveled back to Amman, Jordan. We were traveling in caravan - 3 cars. The caravan got separated and as we waited near the Jordanian border for the last car to arrive, some Somali medical students stopped to tell us that the third car had crashed near a small town called Rutba. We returned to Rutba and found the local hospital there had just been bombed two days prior by Americans. We continued down the road and found a small clinic that had been set up and found the rest of our crew receiving much needed medical care. These wonderful people wouldn't take any money from us, and simply asked us to tell the American people what was happening in Iraq. They used the little medical supplies they had to treat Americans who they could have held responsible for the deaths of those in the hospital.

From that moment on, I knew that song was at best a myth, and at worst an outright lie.

After 9/11 occured throughout America, anyone who even looked a bit like a middle easterner was threated with attack. I recall that some of us women, made a point of wearing scarves to cover our heads (to look like the "habibs (I think that's what they were called) that Islamic women wore, so as absorb some of the hatred that was being projected at anyone who might look to be Islamic. There was very little love within America in those days following that tragedy. And yet in Iraq, we experienced the love and acceptance of the Iraqi people who are Islamic.

It's time to let go of that myth. Its time to understand that whatever faith people adhere to, they are our brothers and sisters. That's the message Jesus taught.

Kara

[antiochian]

Kara's reply was simply wonderful, and needs little if anything added to it. There are Christians who have given their lives for others, given their fortunes to the needy, and made the world better through their actions. And surely God as they understood him shall reward them.

There are also many Christians who use scripture and God to terrorize their fellow human beings. Plenty of famous examples abound, I need not name names, and we can all think of examples from our own lives.

As lesbian, bisexual, trans, and gays, we have seen behavior from Christians that is cruel and barbaric. We've been burned by the words of hate that flame from [many of] their tongues. They say they are being "loving" when they do and say such things, but their actions reveal their falsehood.

I've encountered non-Christians, even non-religious folks, who have genuinely kind hearts--people I would have once thought lost and deluded who have equal if not higher morals than a lot of church-goers I've known. These folks will surely not go to some burning pit forever after death!

What I'm trying to say, in too many words, and in a nonquarrelsome spirit, is that Christianity has no monopoly on love. There are good Christians. There are also good people who do not worship the Christ.

[baumgrenze]

Thank you koneill08 for reopening this thread. I like what you said: "Each person is made differently. No two people are alike, like snowflakes. But each person is made to display something of God that nobody else in the world through time and space has ever displayed about him." I'd add to it that each of us sees and perceives differently, and we only learn when we share what we have been given to see with others and do our best to see that they share in return.

You led me to spend some time paging down through the thread one more time. I found an interesting statement by awediot. In Post 21 (06-23-2009, 01:46 PM) he said "I was beyond being merely religious and over the boxing in of labels... I was part of God Itself."

Jesus announced that this is a goal of his for those who follow him. John 17: 22-23 (among others in John 17) "I gave them the same glory you gave me, so that they may be one, just as you and I are one: I in them and you in me, so that they may be completely one, in order that the world may know that you sent me and that you love them as you love me."

Christian theologians have argued for centuries about the doctrine of the Trinity and completely missed the doctrine of the "allity" Christ calls us to be.

This morning I had a conversation with a pastor friend and we briefly touched on God's omnipresence while discussing Christ as fully human and fully divine. I wanted to explore the theology of the crucifixion pain I cause each time I sin. Omnipresence in space requires omnipresence in time. I came home and poking around in electronic notes to myself I found the idea that, at least to the extent that we all acknowledge the presence of God in us, when we cause hurt to another we cause hurt to God. That Christ taught us (in part) that the sum of the Law and the Prophets is that we are to love our neighbor.

These are some random thoughts about what a follower of Christ might want to consider experiencing tomorrow.

baumgrenze

[koneill08]

Can I ask a question without causing a raging fire!

We talk about sin as if it's something we do. I've done extensive studies on the idea of sin. I 've discovered that sin is a force, not an action. That's why Jesus said that if you even think of adultery, without commiting it in action, it's still adultery. Sin is dealt with in a one time transaction between us and God through Jesus. So when we talk about sinning, what we're really talking about is transgressions. Mistakes, poor choices, or just ignorant ones (where we don't have all info before deciding) and it causes repurcussions to ourselves or others. Sin has such a negative connotation and feel to it, and the underlying idea that most don't want to deal with as a result, is the punishment that is supposed to go with sin. If we've dealt with our sin (singular) in that one time transaction with God, then all we're dealing with is transgressions. No punishment is meted out for transgression. Yes there are natural consequences to deal with, but no eternal punishment. If that makes any sense.

Anyway, just thought I'd comment to share what I think about sin. I think it's way overpreached and many religious leaders use the fear of the punishment for sin as a way to "convert unbelievers, nonbelivers, seekers, etc." Unfortunately, as I mentioned in another post on here somewhere, what you gain by fear, you must maintain by fear. It is the kindness of God that brings about repentance. Not punishment.

Hope you enjoy.