Homosexulity and Change: My Promiscuity

[Legendary]

Homosexuality and Change: My Promiscuity

Currently I am doing research for a presentation that is based on the term 'ex-gay'. I am passionate about any subject that has to do with human sexuality and gender deviancy but this one particular is a putting on a bit of an emotional roller coaster (which I expected since my researching methods are un-biased). The more I read the more questions I have and the more I am left feeling lost and confused. For instance, in the book 'Healing Homosexuality: Case Stories of Reparative Therapy" by Joseph Nicolosi 8 men talk about their journey's of "coming out" of their homosexuality, due to the fact that the homosexual feeling they have are unwanted, an damaging to their lives according to them. I haven't gotten very far yet but from what I have reviewed, I found it very interesting the determination these men put into changing and seeking happiness. One guy even challenged those who say homosexuality cannot change by saying " But who are they to say I shouldn't change." According to the therapist who is also the author of this book says homosexual behavior is an attempt to undo the alienation they feel from their masculinity (in the case of homosexual men). At the end of the stories of the men who say they've changed, they speak of being happy and feeling free. This is where part of my confusion lies leaving me asking questions such as:

How come some men are happy living an 'ex-gay' life when others are not (former ex-gay)?

Why is 'masculinity' almost always confined to 'maleness' when attempting to help a man be free of his homosexual desires?

Does this mean that some people are not meant to be gay? Some therapist would agree that reparative therapy are only for those who want to seek assistance to rid of their unwanted same-sex desires.

Is the ex-gay movement an attempt to confine both men and women to the gender binary without the recognizance or inclusion of those who do not fit?

In order to help a patient change a therapist must know the 'causes of the homosexuality'. What 'caused' you to become homosexual'? I admit I have had a very sexual childhood. I'm now even just getting over my pornographic addiction (I'm 18..since middle school). I used to be a victim of the promiscuity that the stereotypes of homosexual or same sex loving individuals are labeled under by the heterosexual society. Even though I don't think much about my father, I was raised only by by mother but was consistently surrounded by male role models through out my whole life. I can't remember exactly when I began to be attracted to guys but I know it was before I had 'sex' with 2 guys that were 4 and 3 years older then me from the ages of 8-10 (or maybe younger I cant remember). And I have even had experiences with my siblings (girls and guys) in my younger and teen years. Today it seems my mind has put all this history locked away, to the point where all seems ok. But every now and then i think about it and I still don't believe what my life used to be. It frightens me because sometimes I wonder what if the reason I like guys is because of my past. But then I think of how I felt this way even before all this happened. Maybe all the sex at a young age is what caused me to become sexually hyperactive. I don't know. I also remember the many sexual experiences i had throughout high school with guys, as an attempt to find the right one for me. Occasionally today I feel the urges I used to feel as a teen, but it just seems as if everything has slowed way down, and I'm the things that used to bother me don't effect me as much. I think I just grew tired of it. All I know now is that I am only left with so many questions but with very few answers. I'm not hear to be judged just helped. Now that I have come to the realization that I question everything. I feel myself walking away from God. Being afraid or avoiding going to church when I used to be excited. Even gay-friendly churches. My spiritual journey has come to a n abrupt halt.


Legendary

[Gennee]

Legendary, I believe that many of the issues in the study are the same ones you're currently dealing with. It's how you feel about yourself that you will discover who you are.

Constant activity wil only delay the inevitable point of having to face yourself. Ex-gay "therapy" has done much harm to gays and lesbians. One of the best things that happened to me was embracing my transgender identity. I pray that you will do the same.

Gennee

[Daniel]

I'm pretty far ahead of you as far as years go. I am 51. Does this give me some perspective? Yes. It does. Does it make me 'right'? Not by a long shot. Please take what I write as the musings of a man who has simply been down the path of life only a bit longer than you.

Guilt. That's what I read in your post. Guilt. Guilt. Guilt.

Who put that thought in your head?

What is all the guilt about? What you did with whom as a kid?

How about seeing the desire for union with others (the perfect guy) as part and parcel as the journey towards unity with one's Self? Sure. There may be dysfunctional aspects to how you've gone about it, but that doesn't mean that the primary desire to be with those of your own sex is somehow flawed, cheapened, and therefore damned.

My own view is that the Right Wing's promotion of ex-gay therapy is - as you intuit- pretty much about keeping the sexes in their assigned gender roles. And I think this is a very misguided view. There are plenty of straight boys you are effeminate and gay boys who are ultra-masculine.

Ex-gay stuff is about CONTROL. If they can control WHO you LOVE, then they are able to control YOU.

Self-discipline? That is something altogether.

So you are finding that acting on your sexual impulses all the time doesn't lead you to a happy and healthy place? Good for you. Sounds like you are becoming a self-aware man.

That makes you husband material buddy.

[Legendary]

It it is quite a journey that I am on but I am slowly but surely making it. I just really hope to reconnect with God like I want to. A friend told me about a counselor at my school, so I'll be seeing him for the first time next week. Also from my understanding of ex-gays, some people are homosexual(I really don't like the western ideas of categorization but will use it to make it easier to explain my point) for different reasons. Thus the reperative therapy doesnt work for everyone. Everyone comes from all walks of life.

Ex1: a man who is struggling with his same sex desires was rapped as a young boy, and grew up wanting that feeling again, but eventually was terribly unhappy. So he went through reperative therapy and was much better off, even though he still had still attracted to the same sex occasionally he found his true happiness with a woman. (ex-gay)

Ex2: a man who had same-sex attractions all his life has made the choice to go through reperative therapy due to the fact that his faith(and society) is unaccepting of him. He eventually sees that repearative therapy is doing more harm than good for him and learned to be at peace with God and his sexuality. It wasn't for him. (ex-ex-gay)

Both of these men were categorized as homosexual based on what bodies they are sexually attracted too. However on was not a "true" same-sex loving individual. Maybe there should be different names for people like this. This is confusing.

PS: I know that some ex-gay organizations do in fact use "controlling" methods. Some admit that reperative therapy may not work for everyone (anyone).

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

Both of these men were categorized as homosexual based on what bodies they are sexually attracted too. However on was not a "true" same-sex loving individual. Maybe there should be different names for people like this. This is confusing.

PS: I know that some ex-gay organizations do in fact use "controlling" methods. Some admit that reperative therapy may not work for everyone (anyone).

Anybody can have sex with anyone. That doesn't make one gay. Rape doesn't make one gay any more than it makes one a Martian. Does it mess with one's head? You better believe it.

Both examples you give could have been helped by modern psychotherapy. The truth is this: God doesn't 'change' our sexuality. The Exodus folks would like to think that one can change one's sexual orientation as if it is a 'mind over matter' matter , but this is simply not true.

Take the 'faith' part out of their stuff and you see it for what it is.

It's not who you have sex with that matters, but rather, who you fall in love with.

Being gay is about LOVE.

[Legendary]

Sexual orientation is a complex things. In honestly everyone has their own definition of what a homosexual is. Some people categorized people as homosexuals based on their sexual attractiveness, sexual behavior or self-identification. If a heterosexual was to be attracted to only a specific member of the same-sex as well as commit sexual acts with them, some would say they are either homosexual or bisexual based on who their attracted to and their sexual behavior.

Before the America was discovered the Native Americans practiced what we would call homosexual behavior, when in fact they saw it as something complete different and not of any category. It was the Europeans who came here that misinterpreted the practices of the Native Americans and categorized them and their ways of life. Then they tried to "fix" them because they felt the "savages" were uncivilized and needed to be taught the proper gender roles of a man and female. Even today these Western categories that we have do not exist in some other cultures. Therefore does sexual orientation truly exist? What's the point of branding people when you could be wrong and falsely accuse some of being a homosexual based on what you perceive a homosexual to be.

Also sexual orientation is fluid and can change on its own. I believe the individuals who have un-wanted sexual attractions go through the therapy and are happy was because they originally was not identified as homosexual. You can't force someone to love themselves as they are if who they are is not truly them. This means that Ex1 who has tried to love himself but was still unhappy with his unwanted desires found happiness living as a heterosexual because that it possibly who he initially was until he was psychologically damaged. While Ex2 began as a homosexual and was psychologically damaged while during the therapy because he was trying to change who he was which is of course unnatural. Since not one person is the same and is unique designed, reperative therapy has different effect for everyone.And not all therapies are faith oriented, even though some do sneak their beliefs in to try to convert a non-religious person. Some therapist and organizations increase the forcefulness for a person to change if they are like example too, which is wrong. However ex-gay organization successors are sometimes like Ex1 but not always (again everyone is different) so they use that against the gay rights movement to show that homosexuality can change. When in fact not everyone is the same. And this all goes back to my question. Does sexual orientation truly exist. Wy can't people just say I'm not homosexual, bisexual,transsexual,asexual,pansexual or whatever I'm just me.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

And this all goes back to my question. Does sexual orientation truly exist. Wy can't people just say I'm not homosexual, bisexual,transsexual,asexual,pansexual or whatever I'm just me.

If you studied science more than ex-gay ministries you would know that - yes- sexual orientation exists and has a biological basis.

Why are you stuck on this ex-gay stuff? What's in it for you? Science has also shown (and this means data not faith) that it is harmful to people.

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by Daniel

If you studied science more than ex-gay ministries you would know that - yes- sexual orientation exists and has a biological basis.

Why are you stuck on this ex-gay stuff? What's in it for you? Science has also shown (and this means data not faith) that it is harmful to people.

I have a slightly different point of view about this. My feeling is a large proportion of LGBT people have been driven into self-destruction and suicide by their religions. I would say their faith or spirit is what suffers the most damage. If your belief system teaches a "God" that you are not designed to satisfy and you are a person of deep faith, you could lay your death directly at their door. And that is violating Commandment 6. It's slow motion murder. And that is why I say the Spirit of Christ has become a little conspicuous in it's absence from a lot of churches. If a belief system teaches condemnation and not inspiration what good is it? Where is the "Love One Another"?

[Legendary]

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that sexual orientation is a Western term. And as I said before other cultures don't understand it because it doesn't exist to them. I understand that our attraction to others of course has some biological factors however the term 'sexual orientation' is not used by all of the world. Like the term homosexual, bisexual,heterosexual etc.

As for the ex-gay research, I only want to gain understanding of everyone's opinion. I am not trying to be biased. Maybe I should have mentioned earlier that this is what I have come across I've found so far. I still have a stack of books (both for and against ex-gays, and reperative therapy as well as those in between) to go through.Everyone has a voice on this situation, so I'm trying to find my own. I am all for genderqueer expression, and loving who your heart desires. As I've told others before one day i would like to be Legendary. I want to change the world. And in order for me to do that I have to first open up both my heart and mind and here everyone's stories. Because if I limit myself to only one side I'm no better than everyone else.

I am aware what science has shown. But science has many faces. It all depends who's involved. But as I said my research isn't complete. I'm not solely focusing on ex-gay research i am always exploring the idea of human expression (in which ex-gay in nothing but a small portion of).

I came here not only to speak about my ideals but also to get advice on what I can do to help me find peace with myself and God, because I am aware that i am not alone in this. Please understand I mean no harm, I just have a curious soul and seek knowledge wherever I feel I need it.

[Legendary]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

I have a slightly different point of view about this. My feeling is a large proportion of LGBT people have been driven into self-destruction and suicide by their religions. I would say their faith or spirit is what suffers the most damage. If your belief system teaches a "God" that you are not designed to satisfy and you are a person of deep faith, you could lay your death directly at their door. And that is violating Commandment 6. It's slow motion murder. And that is why I say the Spirit of Christ has become a little conspicuous in it's absence from a lot of churches. If a belief system teaches condemnation and not inspiration what good is it? Where is the "Love One Another"?

Even the non-religious individuals are suffering. I think that everyone is trying to have their own voice be heard. AND since we live in a dominantly heterosexual culture who believes that male and females hold a certain place in society mostly based on their religious beliefs and moral value, anyone who challenged the social-norms are oppressed. It's also a matter of understanding one another. People judge what they don't understand.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that sexual orientation is a Western term. And as I said before other cultures don't understand it because it doesn't exist to them. I understand that our attraction to others of course has some biological factors however the term 'sexual orientation' is not used by all of the world. Like the term homosexual, bisexual,heterosexual etc.

Just because some cultures do not contain the words 'sexual orientation' or 'gay' does not mean the phenomena that we understand these terms to mean does not exist.

The Eskimo's have something like 25 words for snow. Just because most of us don't share this awareness doesn't mean that the difference between the many types of snow don't exist. And just because other cultures have no words for same-sex attraction doesn't mean that gay people don't exist.

A culture's bias does not make for a universal truth.

Originally Posted by Legendary

As for the ex-gay research, I only want to gain understanding of everyone's opinion. I am not trying to be biased. Maybe I should have mentioned earlier that this is what I have come across I've found so far. I still have a stack of books (both for and against ex-gays, and reperative therapy as well as those in between) to go through.Everyone has a voice on this situation, so I'm trying to find my own. I am all for genderqueer expression, and loving who your heart desires. As I've told others before one day i would like to be Legendary. I want to change the world. And in order for me to do that I have to first open up both my heart and mind and here everyone's stories. Because if I limit myself to only one side I'm no better than everyone else.

An opinion is one thing. A fact is another. Best not to mix them up.

Want to change the world? I like what Gandhi said- and he said it best.

Be the change you seek!

Originally Posted by Legendary

I am aware what science has shown. But science has many faces. It all depends who's involved. But as I said my research isn't complete. I'm not solely focusing on ex-gay research i am always exploring the idea of human expression (in which ex-gay in nothing but a small portion of).

Science has many faces?

I don't think so. Science has stacks of facts. Faith and facts are two different things.

Best not to mix the two up.

Originally Posted by Legendary

I came here not only to speak about my ideals but also to get advice on what I can do to help me find peace with myself and God, because I am aware that i am not alone in this. Please understand I mean no harm, I just have a curious soul and seek knowledge wherever I feel I need it.

My take is that we find peace by making peace. Also- by having compassion for ourselves and others. Why? Because we can't give what we don't have.

One of the best ways to become more peaceful is via the practice of meditation.

[Legendary]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Just because some cultures do not contain the words 'sexual orientation' or 'gay' does not mean the phenomena that we understand these terms to mean does not exist.

The Eskimo's have something like 25 words for snow. Just because most of us don't share this awareness doesn't mean that the difference between the many types of snow don't exist. And just because other cultures have no words for same-sex attraction doesn't mean that gay people don't exist.

A culture's bias does not make for a universal truth.



An opinion is one thing. A fact is another. Best not to mix them up.

Want to change the world? I like what Gandhi said- and he said it best.

Be the change you seek!



Science has many faces?

I don't think so. Science has stacks of facts. Faith and facts are two different things.

Best not to mix the two up.



My take is that we find peace by making peace. Also- by having compassion for ourselves and others. Why? Because we can't give what we don't have.

One of the best ways to become more peaceful is via the practice of meditation.

1.) I never said that "gay" people didn't exist.My proposal is that the meaning of the term homosexual varies. Of course that are same-sex loving people out there.

2.)sometimes someone's fact to another person is only an opinion. For instance some scientist believe Creationism to be fact, while Evolutionist believe that to just be their opinion.

3.) According to you, what change is it that I am seeking.

4.) If Science is all facts and not anyone's opinion, then why is the world of science so divided on various subjects.

5.) Yes I do seek to help the world find peace, but I never said now. I am well aware that I must first find peace with myself.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

1.) I never said that "gay" people didn't exist.My proposal is that the meaning of the term homosexual varies. Of course that are same-sex loving people out there.

Of course, you didn't say that gay people don't exist. My contention is that whatever gay people are called (or not called), they exist despite the opinions of others. As such, this isn't a gray area at all.

The word homosexual didn't exist until the 1880's, but men have been loving other men for as long as recorded history. Note- I say loving and not having sex with. Why? Because it's a matter of affectional preference, not just where you put your cock. In other words, it's not the sex that makes one gay, but who you fall in love with. Ego: it's about LOVE!

2.)sometimes someone's fact to another person is only an opinion. For instance some scientist believe Creationism to be fact, while Evolutionist believe that to just be their opinion.

A med that saves your life is based on a stack of facts. It doesn't care if you like it or not. And Creationism is more faith than fact based. Some may not like this, but that's the way the facts stack up.

3.) According to you, what change is it that I am seeking.

Is this a question?

Only you can say what changes you want to make. However, my one observation is that you may have a lot of guilt surrounding sex. And if I've learned anything in life, it is that guilt isn't a very helpful emotion. Remorse, however, is something else. It can lead one to make better choices. Guilt? It's more like a never-ending cycle in which one hurts one's self.

4.) If Science is all facts and not anyone's opinion, then why is the world of science so divided on various subjects.

If one stays with observation and investigation, then what is known as fact becomes reliable over time. If not, science is able to turn on a dime and go with new understanding. People of faith could learn a from this kind of approach in my opinion.

5.) Yes I do seek to help the world find peace, but I never said now. I am well aware that I must first find peace with myself.

Yep. I think the same thing. It all starts at home.

[Legendary]

As I stated before we both can agree that whom you have sex with doesn't make you homosexual, heterosexual or whatever, but there are some out there who would categorize an individual solely based on their sexual behavior.

My point for science is that some would say Creationism is fact, while people like you or Evolutionist would declare it theory and opinion. Another argument would is 'Global Warming'. Some scientist say that this is fact while others believe it not to exist.

And my arguments are all faith-based. In fact very few of them are. I am mainly talking about science vs. science,not faith vs, science.

[bnmoore]

That which is not broken does not require or need repair. The very idea of reparative therapy is insulting to the sane. People of any sexual orientation don't generally react well when insulted. Or at least not immediately.

Breaking science into idealism and materialism still holds up. Both seem to be about the repetition of results. It's reciprocal inspiration.

Religions, Faiths, and Belief Systems are all opinions or theories about the nature of "God". How can "God" be observed from the outside? If what I hear is true there isn't one to observe from.

[Legendary]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

That which is not broken does not require or need repair. The very idea of reparative therapy is insulting to the sane. People of any sexual orientation don't generally react well when insulted. Or at least not immediately.

Breaking science into idealism and materialism still holds up. Both seem to be about the repetition of results. It's reciprocal inspiration.

Religions, Faiths, and Belief Systems are all opinions or theories about the nature of "God". How can "God" be observed from the outside? If what I hear is true there isn't one to observe from.

An individual who was sexually molested by the same-sex in his childhood and long for the same experience through other men as he grew older, and eventually doesn't want his desires anymore deserves therapy if he wants it. Something horrific was done to him and and he became psychologically damaged. So I believe he has every right to get counseling. And I'm not saying that this person is homosexual solely because he has sexual desires for men. He could have been originally heterosexual and someone came along and messed up his mind. Thus anyone who has a "rape experience' deserves help. Why should he have to force himself to embrace feelings that were not originally there but was a result of sexual abuse. However the story is different for someone who began as homosexual, undergoing reperative therapy would be unnatural and psychologically damaging for him or her.

[bnmoore]

I would agree that an individual who longs to be molested needs therapy. That individual has problems. Perhaps their victimhood should be addressed first.

[Legendary]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

I would agree that an individual who longs to be molested needs therapy. That individual has problems. Perhaps their victimhood should be addressed first.

I never meant to say that he longed to be molested but as of a result of being molested he developed same-sex attraction. I know of a few people like this.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Legendary

I never meant to say that he longed to be molested but as of a result of being molested he developed same-sex attraction. I know of a few people like this.

I personally suspect that this is a myth developed my Nicolossi and his ilk. The vast majority of LGBTs that I know were not molested. It's just part of the legend these anti-gay people promote.

Kara

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

I never meant to say that he longed to be molested but as of a result of being molested he developed same-sex attraction. I know of a few people like this.

This is a myth. One does not develop same-sex attraction from being molested.

The vast majority of gay men that I know (and I have met many in my 51 years on earth) will tell you that their same-sex desires are not a result of being molested.

Now. Do screwed up gay priests (thank you religion!) molest gay boys? You bet. Now that will F**k with your mind.