Not about love, just sex.

[antiochian]

Sometimes, I think the comments left on youtube videos are more interesting than the videos themselves. And I've pissed several people off when I've left mine.

On a video about Ken Hutcherson (antigay former NFL player and Christian evangelist), I submitted a post about how far behind Europe America is when it comes to equality.

Some enlightened soul responded today, informing me that America differs in Europe in that Americans "think with their brains, not with what's in between their legs." Uh huh. Then the person goes on to declare how homosexuality is about sex, not love. Oh, don't you just love it when they bring that one up??

My response, typed just minutes ago: It sounds like you're an expert on homosexuality. As I'm sure you know, all heterosexual relationships are about love and never just sex. That's why there's no such thing as heterosexual rape, and the divorce rate among heterosexuals is extremely low (especially Christians!). Yes, heterosexuality is a shining example to the rest of humanity. If only depraved, godforsaken homos who remain faithful to their partners for years could learn from your shining example.

[HELENz]

Very nice. Dumbest argument on their part ever. I find I can respect people who don't use that argument (they do exist) a lot more than I can respect others who do... Homosexual relationships are not all about sex - there's love there, for sure... Durr. It takes more than sex for a couple to stay together for years. Although, anti-gays are quick to falsely state that homosexuals don't form long-lasting relationships, which is BS.

Bah. When will things ever change?

[Pablo Rafael]

I have long thought that Europe was far ahead of us on the sexuality issue. If our society was more open in discussing sex, we would be better off. Europeans discuss it as a matter of fact, and ordinary activity. We Americans view it as something dirty.

In Europeans movies there is more sex and less violence than in American movies. To me that seems to be a healthier attitude than what we have in the States.

[bnmoore]

It may no be as far back or buried as deeply as a lot of people think. The orgy was a sacred rite. And perhaps practiced in religions it is not commonly associated with now. A symbolic return to "The Garden". You could look at it as shared innocence. Are you most vulnerable at your most intimate with the person(s) you adore? From some perspectives you are always making love with God AS God. Read your Sufi poetry.

[HELENz]

Bah. Just talked to a friend of mine about SoulForce coming, and I mentioned my excitement about them coming. She said that she believes in gay rights, and that they are people. She also said, however, that she doesn't think that homosexuality is God's plan for his children. I said that I didn't see anything wrong with it, because I don't (obviously). She then mentioned how she didn't think it was God's plan for his children, because anal sex is "dangerous" (she's a nursing major, by the way...). Of course sex gets mentioned. I then said that I was going to ask one more question and then I'd leave... I asked if she thought that homosexuals were born with an attraction to the same gender. She said she didn't know, but that it didn't matter. She said that if she were to be attracted to a woman she would have to resist that "temptation", because it wasn't what God intended - it was wrong (sin), in other words. She said that gays and lesbians (those with same sex attractions) had a responsibility to resist the same "temptations". I then asked (yeah, I said I was only asking one more question, oops) if it was possible for homosexuals to change their attractions. She replied that it was... Bah. I said I disagreed with her and left... Misinformation, everywhere.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by HELENz

Bah. Just talked to a friend of mine about SoulForce coming, and I mentioned my excitement about them coming. She said that she believes in gay rights, and that they are people. She also said, however, that she doesn't think that homosexuality is God's plan for his children. I said that I didn't see anything wrong with it, because I don't (obviously). She then mentioned how she didn't think it was God's plan for his children, because anal sex is "dangerous" (she's a nursing major, by the way...). Of course sex gets mentioned. I then said that I was going to ask one more question and then I'd leave... I asked if she thought that homosexuals were born with an attraction to the same gender. She said she didn't know, but that it didn't matter. She said that if she were to be attracted to a woman she would have to resist that "temptation", because it wasn't what God intended - it was wrong (sin), in other words. She said that gays and lesbians (those with same sex attractions) had a responsibility to resist the same "temptations". I then asked (yeah, I said I was only asking one more question, oops) if it was possible for homosexuals to change their attractions. She replied that it was... Bah. I said I disagreed with her and left... Misinformation, everywhere.

Your 'friend' doesn't know very much about sexuality, or humanity, for that matter.

As a nurse, she should know that sex of every description is 'dangerous'. There are risks with every sex act, gay or straight. Hello! Getting pregnant is pretty serious stuff for someone who doesn't want to have a child. Sex between straight persons is no less 'dangerous' than it is for gay folks. I mean, this is the science of the matter? What planet is your friend from anyway? Is she a nurse or a missionary?

What does one do to minimize the danger? Wear a condom for one thing. Anal sex? To avoid STD's one should wear a condom. Same with hetero sex. Plain and simple.

What is the big *fffing* deal about sex anyway? What does she care what two consenting adults do anyway? It's been often said that men have very little understanding of women's sexuality. But heck, your nurse friend seems to be clueless about men's sexuality. We have a prostate. Anal intercourse can be intensely pleasurable. Even many straight men are aware of this.

It's time for your friend to grow up, get real, and deal with real issues (and the persons she serves), rather than a bunch of religious mumbo-jumbo.

My unasked for advice? Hit her between the eyes (metaphorically speaking) next time your see her with the facts.

Gay people have real enough problems to encounter without having to deal with medical 'professionals' that don't have a clue.

[HELENz]

Well, I told her that I would just agree to disagree with her on her view of homosexuality. That's all I really can do. I respect her as a person and don't want to lose her friendship!

Also, there's some people you can't change the opinions of no matter how much you try... I mean, maybe someday her heart will be changed, but no amount of debating will change some people's mind. It's just rather sad.

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Daniel

We have a prostate. Anal intercourse can be intensely pleasurable.

That would make a great bumper sticker.


Rick

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by HELENz

She also said, however, that she doesn't think that homosexuality is God's plan for his children.

I can remember when mixed marriages weren't God's plan for his children either. But God seems to have adjusted just fine.


Rick

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by HELENz

she doesn't think that homosexuality is God's plan for his children. I said that I didn't see anything wrong with it, because I don't (obviously). She then mentioned how she didn't think it was God's plan for his children, because anal sex is "dangerous" (she's a nursing major, by the way...). Of course sex gets mentioned.

I would address the assumptions implicit in this statement.

Assumption #1: all gay males have anal sex
Assumption #2: no straight couples engage in anal sex activities

There are several flaws with those assumptions. You could get into a discussion about the differences between anal tissue and vaginal tissue, which is meeting her where she is, and from there, take it into a discussion of the proclivities of straight males who enjoy anal penetration, and females who do.

Is heterosexuality not God's plan for his children because some straight women and straight men enjoy anal penetration? Because that is precisely the logic base behind her assertion that homosexuality is 'not God's plan.' The logic simply does not hold.

[HELENz]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I would address the assumptions implicit in this statement.

Assumption #1: all gay males have anal sex
Assumption #2: no straight couples engage in anal sex activities

There are several flaws with those assumptions. You could get into a discussion about the differences between anal tissue and vaginal tissue, which is meeting her where she is, and from there, take it into a discussion of the proclivities of straight males who enjoy anal penetration, and females who do.

That would probably be a good way to discuss it. It would be from a medical standpoint, which is something she understands... obviously. I also somewhat understand, since I'm a nursing major as well (albeit less experienced)... Sounds like a decent plan!

Is heterosexuality not God's plan for his children because some straight women and straight men enjoy anal penetration?

For this reason, some Christians would likely (including my friend?) state that anal sex among heterosexuals is sinful behavior, even though many Christian heterosexuals do it. In other words, in all cases anal sex is not God's plan.

Because that is precisely the logic base behind her assertion that homosexuality is 'not God's plan.' The logic simply does not hold.

I think that's not her full logic; Part of it, certainly. I think that some of the rest of it also comes from the notion of "The Bible said it, therefore it's true", which involves no logic and probably cannot be argued against with logic. Bah.

Thanks for the feedback. You've given me some great ideas of where to start if the topic should come up again... I'm not going to start a discussion about it, though. If it comes up, I'll talk.

[bnmoore]

Originally Posted by HELENz

I think that some of the rest of it also comes from the notion of "The Bible said it, therefore it's true", which involves no logic and probably cannot be argued against with logic.

I'd imagine most of us don't believe the Bible mentions it at all. On more than one occasion I've directed people to Amazon.com. There are dozens of books on all religions and homosexuality written by people that have no gay ties or agenda. They're just scholars. I've run across a few web sites that have lists of different religion's opinions about homosexuality. I don't feel a need to run out and convert to one that says it's okay.

This quote is on the First MCC web site in the ATL:

"Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty - more value in questioning than in absolutes;"

I had spoken with the minister last year at Pride without knowing who he was. It turns out that an independent woman minister that teaches classes at our center has also been teaching at the MCC. Joyce is usually at our retreats when we go to the mountains.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by HELENz

For this reason, some Christians would likely (including my friend?) state that anal sex among heterosexuals is sinful behavior, even though many Christian heterosexuals do it. In other words, in all cases anal sex is not God's plan.

That's what it was called. And it wasn't just same-sex couples that were targeted. It was straight couples too. Anal and oral sex to be exact. And the Supremes (aka Supreme Court) struck these laws down in Lawrence vs Texas in 2003. Reading this decision is quite informative. It shows that laws against same-sex sexuality in America are anything but ancient. They came about in the latter half of the 19th Century.

Funny how 'God's Plan' seems to boil down to one's personal proclivities.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Rick336

That would make a great bumper sticker.

Pleasure is the point.

[Alecto]

If it's against God's plan "because anal sex is dangerous", that should mean Lesbians are totally ok, right?

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by Alecto

If it's against God's plan "because anal sex is dangerous", that should mean Lesbians are totally ok, right?

Totally. No negative mention of lesbianism in the Bible at all. Why don't the fundies ever bring that up? (confused)

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

Totally. No negative mention of lesbianism in the Bible at all. Why don't the fundies ever bring that up? (confused)

Because the talking donkey had a lesbian sister.

Rick

[bnmoore]

Larry the Crime Donkey talked in the Jack in the Box ads. Jack in the Box also paired up Brian Boitano and Lawrence Taylor as fishing buddies. That was an odd couple.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by HELENz

Very nice. Dumbest argument on their part ever. I find I can respect people who don't use that argument (they do exist) a lot more than I can respect others who do... Homosexual relationships are not all about sex - there's love there, for sure... Durr. It takes more than sex for a couple to stay together for years. Although, anti-gays are quick to falsely state that homosexuals don't form long-lasting relationships, which is BS.

Bah. When will things ever change?

Obviously whoever actually posted that remark has never heard of LBD....Lesbian Bed Death. LOL