Curiosity From An Atheist

[K0v0]

Hello, before I continue I should state that I am a straight male, who is an atheist/agnostic (depending on the day).

I have argued with so many Christians (or theists in general I should mention) before about homosexuality. And I have found it very hard to convince them that homosexuality is natural. I actually came across this forum while doing some research on biblical exerts on homosexuality being a sin.

My strongest point is that it occurs in nature. We see homosexual, bisexual and trans gendered animals ranging from prime-apes to ducks. And that to someone who is homosexual/bisexual, the feelings they have for people of the same sex is just as natural and feels just as right to them as my feelings are towards women.

I was kind-of shocked however when I came across this forum. As it was a Christan community of homosexuals, which I thought up until now was more of an oxymoron. I didnt see the two coming together. Of course I know that there are an insurmountable amount of homosexuals in religion, I didnt think there was a community of gays that are still religious.

Im very curious both for my own personal knowledge and for when I think about things in the future, how, many of you here who are homosexual can still believe in God and Christianity?

That may be a loaded question, and my intentions here are not to spark a religious debate on all fronts, although there might be no other way to answer my question.

I would think that someone who sees a belief system that produces a strong amount of hate towards something that is seemingly and scientifically natural, would discard that faith as valid. How could a creator allow his creations to produce and follow texts such as the bible?

My argument may seem weak, but Im really trying to not bring up other arguments against the validity of religion and stick to the theme of this website.

I hope this question is not antiquated in any way for this community.

Thanks

[koneill08]

Originally Posted by K0v0

I was kind-of shocked however when I came across this forum. As it was a Christan community of homosexuals, which I thought up until now was more of an oxymoron. I didnt see the two coming together. Of course I know that there are an insurmountable amount of homosexuals in religion, I didnt think there was a community of gays that are still religious.

Im very curious both for my own personal knowledge and for when I think about things in the future, how, many of you here who are homosexual can still believe in God and Christianity?

That may be a loaded question, and my intentions here are not to spark a religious debate on all fronts, although there might be no other way to answer my question.

I would think that someone who sees a belief system that produces a strong amount of hate towards something that is seemingly and scientifically natural, would discard that faith as valid. How could a creator allow his creations to produce and follow texts such as the bible?

My argument may seem weak, but Im really trying to not bring up other arguments against the validity of religion and stick to the theme of this website.

I hope this question is not antiquated in any way for this community.

Thanks

Hi there. I know for me, it doesn't spark any religious debate.

I would answer your question, even though you may not be a believer yourself (which is totally your choice), some of us don't believe that the rhetoric that comes from people/places claiming to be Christian, have anything to do with Christ. My years of being a christian, and more recently, some experiences and knowledge/revelation if you will, has taught me that Christianity/Church and following Christ can often times NOT be synonymous.

There is much in the way of hate, judgmentalism, bigotry (to name a few) that is spouted by those who say they are Christian and who have nothing to do with Christ. It's very difficult for for people who are not GLBT to reconcile the hate speech and intolerant positions of some who claim christianity's banner, let alone those who are GLBT. But many of us have searched, struggled, fought, and wrestled for years to reconcile our belief in God with the idea that we are fully accepted and loved as we are. It's a very liberating position to be when you discover God for yourself, instead of relying on all that is taught ABOUT God from others. The two are more times than not, very different from one another.

So the short answer is, when people stop listening to others and foster a relationship with God for themselves, most people find that the God that is preached and displayed in much of "christianity" is not actually christianity. And because people tend to realize that, for some it may actually be very easy to let go of all the junk associated with it and find that accepting themselves as GLBT and reconciling their faith together isn't so troubling.

I hope that answers your question, even a little bit!

Enjoy.

[antiochian]

Hello! Although Soulforce was begun by a pastor, the forums are made up of people of a diverse range of beliefs, ranging from devoutly practicing Christians to completely nonreligious. Those who do come from a Christian perspective will probably tell you what many theologians would tell you: the Bible has been misinterpreted and abused by people with preconceived notions and biases in order to bolster their prejudice. Such was the case for centuries, and certainly still today, with regards to women--passages about the man being "head of the household" meant to some that it was ok to treat females are inferior. Of course, many Christians no longer believe such craziness, and obviously, there are plenty of female Christians today. The Bible was also used against African Americans, and yes, against gays, but again, the Bible was written by imperfect people, and has most definitely been interpreted by imperfect people. The church has been, and continues to be led by imperfect people.

Personally, I ceased to self-identify as Christian a year and a half ago. I couldn't ultimately find a way to reconcile my existence as a gay man to a religion that has continually denounced the feelings I have. But that's just my journey. Slowly, things are changing. The Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, the Quakers, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and other denominations of Christianity are casting off the old chains of ignorance, and beginning to embrace gays, bisexuals, transgenders. Last but not least, antigay bigotry isn't limited to religious people, although most people who disapprove homosexuality are religious. I've come across a few homophobic atheists, too. People are scared of what they don't understand, and resort to irrational prejudices as a result. Hope this gives you an answer.

[K0v0]

Thanks for both your answers.
I really wanted a perspective from a GLBT because its one thing to know its natural and defend it, and another to have an idea of what homosexuals have to say on the matter (when it comes to religion calling it a sin).

@koneill08; Its great we didnt have to go into disproving religion, because I dont think it belongs here on these forums and I do enough of that elsewhere on the internet and in real life.

I find that saying the bible is wrong or not true to God, contradicts saying you still identify as a Christian. It seems as though you are edging towards a pantheist but perhaps have never heard about it before. In either case, thanks for your response. Although as an Atheist I did find it odd to see a community centered around GLBT Christians, Im glad to see that as a whole you do disagree with the general Christians view of the Bible being the word of god and the true book of laws.


@antiochian; I definitely agree, I too would find it hard to identify to a group that denounces the way I feel inside (in this conversations case; homosexuality)

Im sorry you've come across homophobic atheists. The ones I hang around and the more elite Atheists out there most definitely do not have any homophobia in them, because we understand the true nature of sexual desire and that there is no wrong at all to be attracted to same sex, both sex etc... My best friend in College was bisexual and he was one of the most interesting people I had ever met. It astonishes me how some bigots have no idea that you and me are quite literally the same.

And as for the bible, it is just fancy text, used as a political wedge and a tool to control the masses. And its tragic the pain and suffering it has caused to women, GLBTs, Africans and countless other cultures and sub cultures.


Thanks for your response, Im glad to have come across this forum.

ps. Those atheists who were homophobic, (just an idea), perhaps they came from religious childhoods and had those fears instilled. It doesnt make sense to have an Atheist who believes in evolution and fears homosexuality. But that's just my opinion I guess!

-cheers

[Pablo Rafael]

Christianity is not a monolithic religion. There is a vast amount of diversity. I am very content and confident in my moderately liberal Christian beliefs. I attend an affirming Episcopal church, and my Christian friends have no problem with me being Christian and gay. In fact it seems a non-issue to everyone I am in contact with.

It seems that conservative fundamentalist Christianity is what people think of when they hear the word "Christian". That branch of Christianity I will have no part of. In my opinion, that judgmental, negative, exclusive branch of Christianity has little to do with the teachings of Christ and the Bible. Too bad the more liberal, affirming side of Christianity doesn't get more attention.

The God of love is shown in the Bible. Through the life death and resurrection of Christ all are included in that love (grace). God loves me; I happen to be gay. What conflict can there be in that.

BTW I have no bad feelings about atheists. Everyone has a right to their belief system. I do not try to force my beliefs on others, and I expect others to do the same. There is room for all in this world if we are educated and reasonable.

[Tallit]

My Christian friends are always surprised that there is a small but significant GLBT presence in Judaism. Of course it helps that in Judaism there is a lot of lee way regarding belief.
In our shul, which is Conservative, my s/o an dI are considered a family for memebrship purposes and for liturgical activities such as going up to the Torah.

[K0v0]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

...

BTW I have no bad feelings about atheists. Everyone has a right to their belief system. I do not try to force my beliefs on others, and I expect others to do the same. There is room for all in this world if we are educated and reasonable.

I have no problems with that either. In fact, you are right. It is the fundamentalists in all main religions that are causing the brunt of the problems today.

My issues with religion arise when we take a laissez-faire approach since we believe Jesus is coming back soon anyway. So destroy, consume and do as we want. We sit at the precipice of nuclear war because of the extremists in religion. But I do not want to get into that. ITs not the place.

I in no way impose the scientific views on life on earth, and if someone has a faith like Christianity and takes it as a guide and not an absolute truth, then great!

Thanks for sharing. Its always interesting to see views from the other end without having to deal with a fundamentalist.

[Daniel]

Welcome to this forum.

Before I dive into responding to your question, may I address a matter of semantics? The same Christian Fundamentalists who are anti-gay also use the word 'homosexual' in a negative way, which is why many prefer the term 'gay'. It has a different connotation being less medical and more user friendly. This is why there is a 'Gay Rights Movement' and not a "Homosexual Rights Movement'. One never hears the term 'anti-homosexual'. And why is that? Because religious conservatives are often hung up on the 'sex' in homosexual and certainly don't want those people to be happy or 'gay'.

I hope this makes some sense.

Now. To your concern.

I grew up Pentecostal and left that faith after I came out. Many do. They head for the door on their own volition or they are thrown out because of the animus they encounter. Some try to stay with the faith they were born into. And this can be a hard road to walk the more conservative the setting.

My head turned towards the East after I left the Church- and I found myself interested in Buddhism - which has no Ultimate Being or God - and meditation and yoga.

The Dalai Lama has said that his religion is kindness, and that seems about the most pithy statement I can think of in regard to this question of gay people and matters of faith. It's common ground that we can all stand on.

[K0v0]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Welcome to this forum.

Before I dive into responding to your question, may I address a matter of semantics? The same Christian Fundamentalists who are anti-gay also use the word 'homosexual' in a negative way, which is why many prefer the term 'gay'. It has a different connotation being less medical and more user friendly. This is why there is a 'Gay Rights Movement' and not a "Homosexual Rights Movement'. One never hears the term 'anti-homosexual'. And why is that? Because religious conservatives are often hung up on the 'sex' in homosexual and certainly don't want those people to be happy or 'gay'.

I hope this makes some sense.
...

Really? I definitely wasn't trying to use it in a derogatory way. I actually wasn't sure what the preferred terminology was. Because I also know that the word gay, amongst the young generation, is used in negative ways as well, but not always necessarily against a gay person (basically making the word a bit ambiguous) Well Ill be sure to use the term gay in the future in place of homosexual, I just had a pre-inclination towards steering away from a word that is also used loosely and negatively. To be honest, I prefer, human-being, as opposed to straight, gay, bi etc.. But I guess thats a bit too unrealistic!


The path you seem to be on now is what I always assumed that a lot of gays would go down, not necessarily Buddhism, but several of the more spiritual belief systems that do not produce such hate and bigotry.

Thanks for sharing, I really appreciate it.

[antiochian]

Regarding the atheists in question, I remember running into one of Myspace, who was so proud to have voted for Prop 8, because he thought gays were disgusting.

I'd be willing to assume that most people who are against gays are so because they can't stand the thought that a man could possibly enjoy doing *those* kinds of things with another dude. Christian fundamentalists, in case you haven't read much of their material or heard them on TV, are obsessed with gay sex. The scripture verses and the Church pronouncements are probably more the result, rather than the cause, of that ancient fear of something different. So many straight men it seems think that every gay man desperately wants to tear their clothes off and fondle them. I can't speak for women or lesbians, I don't think we've heard from any yet in this thread. It's a matter of fear, immaturity, and ignorance. Religion isn't the fire, but it can surely feed the fire!

And to make things more complicated, there's bigotry within the LGBT community, as well. There's racism, elitism, all the same problems that exist in the general population. Some gay Christians quit talking to me after I "came out" as a pagan who practices witchcraft (speaking of another group that is often misunderstood and discriminated against...). Some gay people don't like transsexuals. Humanity is complex, and, well, just read my Dutch proverb below.

[Ozgeorge]

Originally Posted by K0v0

Im very curious both for my own personal knowledge and for when I think about things in the future, how, many of you here who are homosexual can still believe in God and Christianity?

Welcome!

I have to say, I don't really understand your question here. Why would being gay preclude the need to answer metaphysical questions? Science is concerned with Empirical questions and does not stop the search for Empirical truth just because there are varied theories and opinions on a topic. For example, there are differing scientific opinions on the question of whether climate change is anthropogenic in nature, but that doesn't stop scientists searching for the truth of the matter. The same goes for Faith and Metaphysical Truth, which is the search for the Truth behind and beyond Empirical truth. If, as some claim, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", then the question remains and needs to be answered: "Who, if anyone, made Steve? Because Steve sure as hell exists and is attracted to Adam."

[bnmoore]

Some of us aren't Christians at all. I don't believe there's anything in the "About" tab of SoulForce that mentions any particular religion. The Christians do seem to outnumber everyone else but the gay ones do seem to be a little more on "message" about a lot of things to me. Christianity is the dominant religion in the USA at the moment. It does seem to be loosening it's stranglehold on the hearts and minds of many.

"Soulforce" is the english translation of Gandhi's tenet, "Satyagraha." The phrase is a combination of the hindu words for "truth" and "holding firmly."

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by K0v0

Really? I definitely wasn't trying to use it in a derogatory way. I actually wasn't sure what the preferred terminology was. Because I also know that the word gay, amongst the young generation, is used in negative ways as well, but not always necessarily against a gay person (basically making the word a bit ambiguous) Well Ill be sure to use the term gay in the future in place of homosexual, I just had a pre-inclination towards steering away from a word that is also used loosely and negatively. To be honest, I prefer, human-being, as opposed to straight, gay, bi etc.. But I guess thats a bit too unrealistic!


The path you seem to be on now is what I always assumed that a lot of gays would go down, not necessarily Buddhism, but several of the more spiritual belief systems that do not produce such hate and bigotry.

Thanks for sharing, I really appreciate it.

Didn't think you were being derogatory at all, but as you say, "I actually wasn't sure what the preferred terminology was." And I get your point about not using the word gay in a negative way. Admirable on your part!

Curiously, the first use of the word homosexual was by a gay person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Maria_Kertbeny

And there's a certain nuance is that last sentence, implying a state of being rather than an act. It's the difference between saying 'I am a gay' and "I am a homosexual.' The first sounds odd to the ear, does it not? As such, I think this is a matter of self-determination rather than objectification. The latter is where bigotry and hatred arises.

And speaking of self-determination, I've witnessed groups of young black men using the word 'nigger' in conversation with each other to the consternation of their elders. However, it would have been inappropriate for me as a white man to do so.

Back to matters of faith.

My experience has been that every religion has its dogmatic and conservative side. There are homophobic/anti-gay Buddhists.

[Alecto]

There's a lot of people within religions who are gay and may choose to kind of "stick it out" and change beliefs hearts and minds from the inside (See "Dignity", a group for gay Catholics). There's some churches that have splintered off with pretty much the main purpose being to be more welcoming to all (see: Metropolitan Community Churches) But there's also a TON of churches (and there have been going pretty far back) that people just grow up in where it's accepted that Jesus would love him some homogays if he were alive today (see the Quakers).

So, like, your premise is flawed, is part of your answer. Not all of Christianity is "a belief system that produces a strong amount of hate towards something that is seemingly and scientifically natural"

[drobs]

Originally Posted by bnmoore

Some of us aren't Christians at all. I don't believe there's anything in the "About" tab of SoulForce that mentions any particular religion. The Christians do seem to outnumber everyone else but the gay ones do seem to be a little more on "message" about a lot of things to me. Christianity is the dominant religion in the USA at the moment. It does seem to be loosening it's stranglehold on the hearts and minds of many.

"Soulforce" is the english translation of Gandhi's tenet, "Satyagraha." The phrase is a combination of the hindu words for "truth" and "holding firmly."

I believe it's Soulforce's connection to Rev. Mel White (author of Stranger At The Gate: To Be Gay and Christian in America) that gives off the perception that somehow this is a Christian website.

Having read Rev. White's book, it would seem natural to think a site he co-sponsors would have some sort of Christian connection.

[Rick336]

I am gay and atheist. But up until 2006 I was gay and Christian. Back then it was easy to be a Christian because everybody around me was also Christian so even without ever reading the Bible I automatically assumed Christianity was based on facts. It wasn't until I actually opened a Bible and read it that I found most of it to be ancient fairy-tale, contradictory, nonsense.

Examples: animals that talk, food that falls from the sky, rivers that turn into blood, sticks that turn into snakes, and corpses that walk around and have conversations with people. And worst of all were the absurd laws to kill homosexuals, adulterers, unruly children, and anybody who mows the lawn on Sunday.

I also found that almost all Christians pick and choose which Bible verses to accept and which to ignore. It's basically a pick-and-choose religion.

Now I'm finding that within the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender community in general there is an unusually high number of atheists and agnostics. I have also found that heterosexual atheists are much more open minded and accepting of LGBT rights than the rest of the straight population.

All that being said, I think Christianity does have its good points.

Examples: Charitable organizations, literature, artwork, architecture, music, and holidays. And most Christians are nice people at heart.




Rick

[BruceChris]

I might recommend, to KOvO and the rest of us, a site that gives a thorough, in depth, and non-biased discussion on this topic: -- (And many others)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus.htm

And a very Christian and gay site, which affirms, and rarely criticicizes:

[http://www.welcomingresources.org/index.htm

And view the video, but only if you have the stomach.

Peace and Love, BruceChris

[Snuffy]

It is a bit of a misconception to say that all Christians are homophobes. I'm Christian, and I surround myself with gay, lesbian, bisexual, and every other type of person there is.

And some people even take a different approach to being against homosexuality. Like some people at my church. They insist on being loving (as they should), but to rebuke people who are homosexual, they basically say, 'We still love you, but we want you to change who you are.' Or that's the basic gist. It's sort of the passive-aggressive disapproval.

Sorry, I'm not sure if that really answers your question much.

[RedneckDyke]

Originally Posted by K0v0

Hello, before I continue I should state that I am a straight male, who is an atheist/agnostic (depending on the day).

I have argued with so many Christians (or theists in general I should mention) before about homosexuality. And I have found it very hard to convince them that homosexuality is natural. I actually came across this forum while doing some research on biblical exerts on homosexuality being a sin.

My strongest point is that it occurs in nature. We see homosexual, bisexual and trans gendered animals ranging from prime-apes to ducks. And that to someone who is homosexual/bisexual, the feelings they have for people of the same sex is just as natural and feels just as right to them as my feelings are towards women.

I was kind-of shocked however when I came across this forum. As it was a Christan community of homosexuals, which I thought up until now was more of an oxymoron. I didnt see the two coming together. Of course I know that there are an insurmountable amount of homosexuals in religion, I didnt think there was a community of gays that are still religious.

Im very curious both for my own personal knowledge and for when I think about things in the future, how, many of you here who are homosexual can still believe in God and Christianity?

That may be a loaded question, and my intentions here are not to spark a religious debate on all fronts, although there might be no other way to answer my question.

I would think that someone who sees a belief system that produces a strong amount of hate towards something that is seemingly and scientifically natural, would discard that faith as valid. How could a creator allow his creations to produce and follow texts such as the bible?

My argument may seem weak, but Im really trying to not bring up other arguments against the validity of religion and stick to the theme of this website.

I hope this question is not antiquated in any way for this community.

Thanks

I believe in god because God surrounds us all the time. Ever look at a honey comb? It is hundreds and hundreds of perfect hexagons. That is just one example. another is the day I was outside and snow fell on my jacket. It was so cold that I could see the perfect crystal structure of each flake with my naked eye before they melted. And I thought "Wow! It's no sh*t! they really are all each one differnt from each other!" It can't all be an accident.
I am a Christian because of two things. One, I was raised in the faith and I have a lot f memories associated with it. and two, because I try to be a Christian now in a more mindful way. To really try to do all those hard christian things like "feed the hungry" and "visit the prisoners" and " love your enemies. that last one is hard. christianity is not easy.
you are right about homosexuality in nature. any farmer can tell you that. I have seen gay goats, roosters, ducks, cats.

[Gennee]

Being a Christian is a having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do what the church one attends, where they come from, or what their economic status is. I'm a transgender person and have bee a Christian for 38 years.

I don't blame anyone from walking away from a place which demeans and humiliates others because of who they are. I know of three women who were tossed out of their church because they were lesbian. People who call themselves 'Christian' and demean others are a stench in God's nostrils. Sadly, much of Christianity in America is cultural. Americanism, militarism, Republicanism (nothing against Republicans) and power is called Christian and it's a big fat LIE.

I have vowed that if anyone uses religion, the bible, or anything to demean LGBT people, I will speak out. We are normal like anyone else. I have more respect for someone who is willing to see what we're about and is confused because there's some hope for them. I'm proud to be a disciple of Christ and a transgender person.

K0v0, your post is interesting and presents many valid points. Thank you for sharing.

Gennee