Sex before marriage, Does this also apply for same-sex couples?

[Legendary]

I understand that scripture forbids this as well as seeing each other naked before marriage. I was just pondering whether this also applied to same-sex couples since the Bible doesn't mention if it does or not. It only mentions the terms "husband and wife."

[scott snedeker]

The flaw in your question illustrates what happens when some one starts a question with a false premise.

"A black African has no soul, so how can one of them ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and receive salvation? They are beasts and it is our God-given right and duty to steward them as such"

150 years ago, this was a heated Calnvinist debate between John Brown and many pro-slavery Calvnists in America.

This illustratess the futility in using the ancient Abrahamic metaphysical paradigm that commands and condones stoning, slavery, infanticide, and pedophilic rape with modern sensibilty and thinking.

Being Gay identifies you as an outsider in the Abrahamic belief system.

Either you believe the God of Abraham has a need to create an evil being (you) with the purpose suffering and be slaughtered by His "good" children,

or you recognize that these are a bunch mean unclever ideas that reflect the dark nature that ordinary humans possess.

I know without a doubt that the latter exists!

The former is ridiculous unless you abandon modern thinking and believe that the world is flat also! (which BTW, was also taught by the catholic church)

So which belief system do you use to live by?

If you are rational you abandon the God of Abraham.

If you make choices based on fear (of hell) you embrace the God of Abraham wasting your precious life and entitlement to joy for something you cannot prove exits.

Fear-based decisions are irrational, dangerous, violent, and idiotic.

Let go of fear and you will be sane again

[Pablo Rafael]

There are many beliefs about whether sex before marriage is prohibited by the Bible. I am going to avoid dealing with that issue.

I will say that if you believe that the Bible prohibits sex before marriage, that it applies to all couples whether they are same-sex or opposite-sex couples. I am a firm believer that the gender of the individuals makes no difference. All are called by God to live lives that show selfless love toward others. Forgiveness, commitment and devotion are activities not restricted to one type of relationship.

[Daniel]

I would like to point out the matter of marriage within this 'no sex before marriage' rule which is a favorite point for conservatives right now. And it is this: marriage, historically speaking, was about property and lineages. It had little to do with love. It was about making an alliance with another family to amass power as well as wealth.

So what does this say about no sex before marriage? I would say that it has a lot to do with enforcing gender roles which keep men in power over women.

So, I ask you: who is this 'rule' for?

[Alecto]

I would like to add that we have pretty good evidence that, historically, this is one of those rules that no matter what the prevailing attitudes of the society, no one has ever really followed. A recent study of people across multiple different age groups found that, across the board, about 90% of people have had sex before marriage. Looking backwards, at the Puritans, historians have found a statistically significant number of newly weds with "premature births". I'm not saying "everyone else is doing it so it's clearly ok", but I think it's worth considering that even in societies where people collectively agree it's not, there's still a very small number of people who don't. Maybe we're not wired for that?

[bnmoore]

I can think of several non-Abrahamic scriptures off the top of my head that don't mention it at all and certainly find nothing wrong with being un-clothed. Why not ask that question again after it becomes an available option to all? It's a mindless question to be asking here to begin with.

[Legendary]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

The flaw in your question illustrates what happens when some one starts a question with a false premise.

"A black African has no soul, so how can one of them ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and receive salvation? They are beasts and it is our God-given right and duty to steward them as such"

150 years ago, this was a heated Calnvinist debate between John Brown and many pro-slavery Calvnists in America.

This illustratess the futility in using the ancient Abrahamic metaphysical paradigm that commands and condones stoning, slavery, infanticide, and pedophilic rape with modern sensibilty and thinking.

Being Gay identifies you as an outsider in the Abrahamic belief system.

Either you believe the God of Abraham has a need to create an evil being (you) with the purpose suffering and be slaughtered by His "good" children,

or you recognize that these are a bunch mean unclever ideas that reflect the dark nature that ordinary humans possess.

I know without a doubt that the latter exists!

The former is ridiculous unless you abandon modern thinking and believe that the world is flat also! (which BTW, was also taught by the catholic church)

So which belief system do you use to live by?

If you are rational you abandon the God of Abraham.

If you make choices based on fear (of hell) you embrace the God of Abraham wasting your precious life and entitlement to joy for something you cannot prove exits.

Fear-based decisions are irrational, dangerous, violent, and idiotic.

Let go of fear and you will be sane again

I do embrace the God of Abraham of which you speak. However I do challenge traditional beliefs through critical thinking which the reason why I ask questions that may not make sense to some people whether they agree with homosexuality or not.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

I do embrace the God of Abraham of which you speak. However I do challenge traditional beliefs through critical thinking which the reason why I ask questions that may not make sense to some people whether they agree with homosexuality or not.

The person you have been conversing with, that is Scotty, knows all about traditional beliefs. So this begs the question: what and whom are you questioning here, and what has your critical thinking led you to conclude?

And if that isn't clear enough, who are the 'some people' you are talking about?

[Legendary]

Originally Posted by Daniel

The person you have been conversing with, that is Scotty, knows all about traditional beliefs. So this begs the question: what and whom are you questioning here, and what has your critical thinking led you to conclude?

And if that isn't clear enough, who are the 'some people' you are talking about?

Im questioning society's traditional beliefs whether it be about gender roles, femininity and masculinity, as well as human sexuality. I'd rather not state what I have concluded so far. Last time I did I was accused of saying homosexuality is the devils work. Im tried of explaining myself to those who misinterpret my arguments. Maybe until I find a better way to explain everything then I will. I have really just begun my research so the information that you and everyone else read was just theories that I have just almost recently claimed.

PS: And the reason I mentioned that I challenge traditional beliefs is because I wanted to make it clear as to why I ask some of the question I do on this forum.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

Im questioning society's traditional beliefs whether it be about gender roles, femininity and masculinity, as well as human sexuality. I'd rather not state what I have concluded so far. Last time I did I was accused of saying homosexuality is the devils work. Im tried of explaining myself to those who misinterpret my arguments. Maybe until I find a better way to explain everything then I will. I have really just begun my research so the information that you and everyone else read was just theories that I have just almost recently claimed.

PS: And the reason I mentioned that I challenge traditional beliefs is because I wanted to make it clear as to why I ask some of the question I do on this forum.

I can understanding your feeling hurt that you are not being understood, but I hope you will allow me, as someone who has lived long enough to identify with such feelings, to point out that this is an untenable position. Why? It mirrors the position that those you are gay but cannot accept themselves are in.

You might as well say "If I tell you who I am you won't accept me." And guess what? For a young gay man to come out in a conservative environment, you betcha- there may be little if any acceptance, love and warmth.

When you can give yourself what you want from others then the conversation will really begin.

[Zerbie]

Hey Legendary,

The answer to your question depends upon the framework you base it upon. You're going to get so many different answers (and in fact, you did!) You probably have noticed by now that you will hear answers running the gamut from extremely opposed to same-gender sexual expression to the sort of responses you hear from Keltic from Scotty, and from Daniel, depending upon where you post this question. That kinda tells us there is no unanimously agreed upon to answer to any such open-ended question, no? So if you're looking for an absolute and immutable rule, you are not going to find it.

If you are looking to answer this question for yourself, for your own personal life and relationships, YOU are going to have to make some determinations about what is important to you. If you ask this question out of concern for your own situation, please make the answer you can live with. The answer that is 'right' for you right now may be different from the one that will be 'right' for you 2 or 3 years from now, and it may differ from that of strangers posting to you on an internet message board. You will have to listen to yourself, to what your intuition and intelligence say is best for you At. This. Precise. Moment.

But perhaps that is not the reason you've asked us all this. So if I may, why the curiosity?

[Legendary]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Hey Legendary,

The answer to your question depends upon the framework you base it upon. You're going to get so many different answers (and in fact, you did!) You probably have noticed by now that you will hear answers running the gamut from extremely opposed to same-gender sexual expression to the sort of responses you hear from Keltic from Scotty, and from Daniel, depending upon where you post this question. That kinda tells us there is no unanimously agreed upon to answer to any such open-ended question, no? So if you're looking for an absolute and immutable rule, you are not going to find it.

If you are looking to answer this question for yourself, for your own personal life and relationships, YOU are going to have to make some determinations about what is important to you. If you ask this question out of concern for your own situation, please make the answer you can live with. The answer that is 'right' for you right now may be different from the one that will be 'right' for you 2 or 3 years from now, and it may differ from that of strangers posting to you on an internet message board. You will have to listen to yourself, to what your intuition and intelligence say is best for you At. This. Precise. Moment.

But perhaps that is not the reason you've asked us all this. So if I may, why the curiosity?

Well my lover (who is also a guy) and I used to be so sexually active with one another. But now I'm trying to lead us into a more healthier and pure life by waiting for the right moment so we can get to connect with one another on other levels besides the sexual kind.

Originally Posted by Daniel

I can understanding your feeling hurt that you are not being understood, but I hope you will allow me, as someone who has lived long enough to identify with such feelings, to point out that this is an untenable position. Why? It mirrors the position that those you are gay but cannot accept themselves are in.

You might as well say "If I tell you who I am you won't accept me." And guess what? For a young gay man to come out in a conservative environment, you betcha- there may be little if any acceptance, love and warmth.

When you can give yourself what you want from others then the conversation will really begin.

You are right I am having a hard time accepting myself as hard as I have tried for 3 years so far, but I was in no way seeking to harm anyone by seemingly labeling them as something evil. The the research that I'm doing is fueled by my desire to learn more about the world. The foundation of all society's in based on gender roles,sexuality, and some sort of religion or belief system, so I want to observe, study, research, destroy and rebuild this foundation (metaphorically speaking) and try to understand why humans believe and think the way that we do.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Legendary

Well my lover (who is also a guy) and I used to be so sexually active with one another. But now I'm trying to lead us into a more healthier and pure life by waiting for the right moment so we can get to connect with one another on other levels besides the sexual kind.

an active sex life is unhealthy and not pure? says who?

listen, connecting with your bf in other ways is great. there are plenty of ways to do it. why do you think this has to be done by excluding pyshical intimacy?

You are right I am having a hard time accepting myself as hard as I have tried for 3 years so far, but I was in no way seeking to harm anyone by seemingly labeling them as something evil. The the research that I'm doing is fueled by my desire to learn more about the world. The foundation of all society's in based on gender roles,sexuality, and some sort of religion or belief system, so I want to observe, study, research, destroy and rebuild this foundation (metaphorically speaking) and try to understand why humans believe and think the way that we do.

one of the exciting things about learning, is how a certain topic, or college course, can get us all excited, even obsessed, right at the very start. That is also a time when we don't know as much as we should about said topic, and down the road we learn that something we assumed at the beginning of the course, is not the case by mid-term. could this be happening for you with critical thinking?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Legendary

Well my lover (who is also a guy) and I used to be so sexually active with one another. But now I'm trying to lead us into a more healthier and pure life by waiting for the right moment so we can get to connect with one another on other levels besides the sexual kind.

Just curious. What does 'healthier', 'pure' and 'waiting for the right moment' mean?

If you are thinking that getting married will have a magical effect on your connection your partner, I have news for you: it won't. If, however, you mean that you'd like to more than a sexual connection with your man, then yes, that's very good to have. It means doing things, going places that you are mutually interested in. But this isn't a matter of waiting for the right moment. But takes, rather, initiative, planning, and real interest in one another. It means having 'heart' with one another as well as being friends. A strong and healthy connection with one's lover is- to my way of thinking- is in three parts: head, heart and groin- working together.

Your use of the words 'pure' and 'healthy' worry me. I wonder if you use them because of unexamined internalized homophobia. That is, you don't like how you feel when you want to connect with your boyfriend.

Originally Posted by Legendary

You are right I am having a hard time accepting myself as hard as I have tried for 3 years so far, but I was in no way seeking to harm anyone by seemingly labeling them as something evil. The the research that I'm doing is fueled by my desire to learn more about the world. The foundation of all society's in based on gender roles,sexuality, and some sort of religion or belief system, so I want to observe, study, research, destroy and rebuild this foundation (metaphorically speaking) and try to understand why humans believe and think the way that we do.

I hear what you are saying, but what I also hear is what you really want is to understand yourself, your feelings, thoughts, and emotions. This is a life-long endeavor. It's inner rather than outer. That said, if you are looking for evidence of gay people in world history, there is a lot more scholarship in this area than there was when I was in my 20's. And pretty much everything is accessible via google.

My own observation is that people do what they do because of the desire desire for love, safety and sustenance. We all want the same things. How we go about obtaining these things? That's where things can get messy- or not.

You know, the Golden Rule is pretty cross-cultural. Nothing complicated about that.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Legendary

Well my lover (who is also a guy) and I used to be so sexually active with one another. But now I'm trying to lead us into a more healthier and pure life by waiting for the right moment so we can get to connect with one another on other levels besides the sexual kind.



You are right I am having a hard time accepting myself as hard as I have tried for 3 years so far, but I was in no way seeking to harm anyone by seemingly labeling them as something evil. The the research that I'm doing is fueled by my desire to learn more about the world. The foundation of all society's in based on gender roles,sexuality, and some sort of religion or belief system, so I want to observe, study, research, destroy and rebuild this foundation (metaphorically speaking) and try to understand why humans believe and think the way that we do.

Hi Legend,

Thanks for your response! That's a huge task you've set upon!! It's a worthy one, but it will be a lifelong pursuit. Don't wait to have it all figured out before living your life.

Correct me if I start assuming things about you that are wrong, k? It sounds like you are having a very difficult time accepting your own sexuality. Are you kind of the on the fence right now between feeling that you are okay as you are and your sexuality is natural/appropriate for you, and at other times feeling that it 'must be' wrong and 'bad' because a lot of people have said so and because it's written down in books, including ones dealing in depth with religion and the meaning of life? If you are, that sounds like a very normal reaction to the situation society has set up. We all have to make the best sense of it we can, whatever our own sexuality may be.

So you have a boyfriend? Or you have a sexual partner who you would like to be more of a boyfriend than just a sex partner?

Looking for a more healthy relationship sounds good. As long as what you deem healthy truly is, in fact, healthy. If you want an in depth relationship, is this guy someone who is open to that sort of relationship right now? What does he want? If he only wants to keep things at the level of casual sex, then your efforts might not produce results. Otoh, if this is a boyfriend, then efforts to create a deeper bond make sense.

Do you have common interests? Do you spend time together other than for physical release? Etc. An important question is whether you share the same values. Since yours seem to be in some flux right now, this question may be dicey. But that's okay as long as you are both communicating. That is key. Communicate with your partner.

What do you believe could make your relationship more healthy or more 'pure?' I have to agree with Daniel that marriage is no magic bullet to fix a troubled relationship. It is, rather, a platform for a strong relationship to truly anchor itself in the community. If you are uncertain about your relationship with this guy, asking about marriage is putting the cart ahead of the horse.

Deal with what is. Don't deal with what isn't yet and might or might not be later. Work from where you are. Keep asking yourself the big questions and see where your deepest values lie. Give this time. But this is key: dive to the depths of your core values for yourself; do not let others tell you what your values are. No matter who they are. Not your parents, not your pastor, not your boyfriend, not us. Listen to yourself. Only if the answers are truly yours will you ever be comfortable with them. Trying to live by someone else's answers, you will have doubts and ricochet back and forth "Oh gee, Scotty/Steve/Daniel sound good, I'll listen to them. Oh no, wait a minute, pastor So N So sounds good, I'll listen to him." On and on that could go and it would never end. You must find what is true for you.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Legendary

Well my lover (who is also a guy) and I used to be so sexually active with one another. But now I'm trying to lead us into a more healthier and pure life by waiting for the right moment so we can get to connect with one another on other levels besides the sexual kind.

A very good friend who is female striaght married and monogamous. (Boy! that's a mouthful!)

She tells me sometimes she and her husband just have sex with her husband, nothing more...and that it is wonderful.

So if you are referencing the hetero married mongamous "Gold Standard" you are doing just fine.

But I feel something familiar. I sense that attached to every part of your intimacy is a value judgement.

I have done this too. We were taught to!

Place in your awareness the barrier to sharing joy caused by the attachment of value judgement.

That's a heavy line so I'l type it again:



Place in your awareness the barrier to sharing joy caused by the attachment of value judgement.

Print this line and repeat it out loud five times.

Write down what thoughts and feelings arise

a couuple of hours later repeat the exercise.

Then picture yourself a forest faun. A young child of nature finding a special sexy friend in the woods. Imagine The forest smiling and laughing with you as the two of you make love. Imagine the harmony of nature increase with your love-making and a breeze caresses your bodies with its blessing. Practice this imagery three times today

Share these with us and those who you trust.

This is and example of Vipassana or "Mindful awarenss"

[pnggrad79]

Since glbt people aren't "allowed" to get married technically and there doesn't seem to be any rules, per se, I don't see how it would be necessarily wrong to have sex before "marriage".

Moreover, I think the lack of marriage rights perpetuates the stereotype of the impermanence of our relationships. I tend to look at marriage of any two people as a sacred thing that needs to be taken seriously. It seems that some glbt couples don't really see their relationships as "permanent" so they feel more or less free to come and go as they please. The other side of that coin is that if marriage is so bloody sacred to the straight community, then why is the divorce rate so high and why are these people allowed to do it again and again, when we can't even do it once!

On the religious side-prohibitions against sex before marriage were so culturally based back then when it was more or less imperative that the Hebrews remain pure, I don't know that in today's cultural aspect, sex before marriage is pertinent.

That's my two cents. For whatever it is worth....

[Magn11]

In bronze age culture there was no DNA testing and no welfare. The only way to appeal to men to stick around and raise chldren was a way for them to ensure their woman's kids were probably their kids. What seems lke a purely private moralistic concern today was in fact a social concern 3,000 years ago. The Jewish laws against adultery are primarily to ensure that a man is responsible only for his own chlildren.

[BishopIoan]

Hi, being Christo-Pagan these days, I do not believe that sex between a loving couple is wrong. The gods and goddesses (and that includes the Christian god) made us potentially loving, sexual beings. As long as the sex is loving, consensual, and not just for one partner to use the other, I see no problem.

Hi Folks,

I'm new here and I have been searching around with no luck so it's time to post my question and see if anyone has an answer