455,000 Florida Supremacists Outed!

[Emproph]

Know Thy Neighbor Florida. This is too sweet.

Much more thorough than the original Massachusetts site, but same professional template and presentation.

Massachusetts background:

Last December www.knowthyneighbor.org posted the (public record) names of those who signed a petition to overturn the legalization of same sex marriage in Massachusetts.

From the Massachusetts site:

Same-sex families would be denied marriage and civil unions.
On September 14, 2005, the MA legislature defeated an amendment that would have eliminated the right of gays to marry but allowed civil unions.

Now a new, stricter amendment that makes no provision for civil unions is underway.

Petition #05-02, the Constitutional Amendment to Define Marriage, reads as follows:

"When recognizing marriages entered into after the adoption of this amendment by the people, the Commonwealth and its political subdivisions shall define marriage only as the union of one man and one woman."
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NOW:

The Jacksonville, FL Christ Church of Peace in conjunction with know thy neighbor posted the 455,000 names (searchable list) of those here in florida who signed the anti-gay marriage amendment to be put on the ballot in 2008. They still need like 155,000 more by July 12th in order to do so. (Synopsis at Ex-Gay Watch (scroll up for article -easy).

Massachusetts had problems with fraud in gaining the signatures, and not being a hypocritical bigot I naturally wanted to make sure my name wasn’t on it. Fortunately I was not listed along with my Brother and his wife .

No surprise there, it could be worse, and still might be, all the signatures aren’t in, but it hits home as to just how sick and twisted their idea of "morality" is. They’re up close and personal, not just paragraphs on a monitor (other forums, not you guys.. ). But actually I mean that. They match up with the dialogues I’ve had on those other forums. The only difference is that my brother and his wife don’t dismiss me to my face. That’s going to change however because I now know what they think of me. Or maybe better, what they don’t think about me.
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Sill I am overjoyed. I think this is some real leverage. They, overall, are getting a taste of their own medicine. It takes away a significant portion of the “prejudice with impunity” part.

I always try to use that as a test for discerning my motives, ‘what would this person think if they knew my thoughts?’ But as any godless heathen ‘Christian’ will tell you, that’s not the basis of Christianity, scripture is. (except for that love thy neighbor part when it conflicts with "the more important things")

This site has the same template as the original and I think is even more comprehensive. We need one of these in every state with these initiatives, past and present. The beauty of this is that they are retroactive. Some of us now have the power to find out who in our own lives have been LYING to us.

Wake Up Call, This is Weaponry.

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A Few Highlights From the Site:

The goal of Know Thy Neighbor Florida is two-fold. Visitors to the church’s website can view the list of petition signers and if they see the name of a family member, friend, co-worker or neighbor, they then have an opportunity to initiate an open and meaningful conversation with that person about how this discriminatory amendment would affect their life and, in many cases, the lives of their children.

There are also concerns about the possibility of fraud in the collection of signatures. “When KnowThyNeighbor.org was launched in Massachusetts last year, it resulted in numerous reports of alleged fraud. While we are not saying that is the case here in Florida, we do believe the only real way to check for possible fraud is to give all Floridians easy and meaningful access to view this public information,” said Christ Church of Peace founding member, John Schumpert.
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-CBS Miami news footage

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-Financiers: (simple glance read, it’s the gratuitous dissection below you might want to skip.. )

FOTF is only $23,000 out of $430,000.
-So that’s $23,000 for 4 direct links to their website, 3 for Glenn Stanton and 1 for James Dobson.

FOF sells Glenn Stanton’s book “Marriage on Trial” for $15, and James Dobson’s “Marriage Under Fire” for $11. Suffice it to say, they needed about 2000 people, (1/3% of 600,000) to buy a book in order to make their money back.

The books of course are just novel length political ads geared toward further funding their spiritual war machine.

So “only” $23,000 out of $430,000? Well “only” if you think Madonna, was “only another person who just happened to be in the theater.”
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IMHO, My what great spin you have Emproph! {I’m officially FOF material}.

Now If I could just figure out a way to justify denigrating the rest of you without sacrificing my eternal soul in the process...

[Emproph]

Florida4marriage.org press release in response to knowthyneighbor.org Florida. (first link on page)

John Stemberger, State Chairman of florida4marriage.org said “Imagine what would happen if a conservative church group posted on line the home address of every gay-identified citizen in Florida? It would be decried as a witch hunt and an un-Christian attempt to mark gays like pedophiles.

*It would be decried as a witch hunt and an un-Christian attempt to mark gays like pedophiles.*
Exsqueeze me, I baking powder?!!!? PEDOPHILES? (NOW I’M ANGRY).

{Translation: Look what all those child molesters are doing to us!}

These people defend themselves by confirming the truth of the charges against them?! And this wasn’t even the accusation! Typical.

"Imagine what would happen if a conservative church group posted on line the home address of every gay-identified citizen in Florida?"

John Stemberger,
By comparing “every gay-identified citizen” with the people on this list, you have just EQUATED a state of BEING with the conscious and willful MALICIOUS ACT to obstruct the lives of others!!

[Zerbie]

What?! Emproph, did I read you correctly? Your own brother and his wife signed that petition??

[Zerbie]

Whew!

So I went back and looked over the FLA list again. My parents live in Florida. Imagine when I saw my father's first and last name on there, in his town, and then saw it was a different address a few blocks away. Another guy with my dad's same name. Whew.

[Emproph]

Close call with the pops eh? My mom's name came up too but it was a different address in a different county. 'Phew' too.

Originally Posted by Zerbie

What?! Emproph, did I read you correctly? Your own brother and his wife signed that petition??

Yes, isn’t that pitiful? Like I said, it wasn’t a surprise but the reality of it is so much different. It’s one thing to believe something is true, but the fact that they actually consciously and willfully took the physical step to obstruct my life is indicative of someone who is certain.

It really goes to show how dangerous people like that are. They are willing to harm others with no more evidence than the fact that they read it in a book, and to do so literally in the name of Jesus makes it all the more astounding.

They didn’t ask me questions, they didn’t consult me to find out if I “choose” to be gay or if I “reject God” and worship the devil. They took no steps to ensure that their actions would not be seen as unChristian. And that’s what’s so unChristian about it.

I could at least respect someone who says that they don’t believe me and that I’m lying and I chose to be gay, or I don’t trust you, you must be delusional. But to so cavalierly act on a conclusion without evidence that risks breaking the commandment to "love thy neighbor as thy self..." and I’m not just a neighbor, I’m literally his brother.

We've spoken about it before in a lead up to a different matter and I got the same ambiguous response as usual. No specifics as to how it harms, just the assumption that somehow being gay is harmful to society. Essentially, "I don’t need a reason, it’s enough for me to assume that there is one," is the attitude.

[Jennifer5]

I just read to last few posts and didn't fully understand who to see the list of the names.... but I literally got teary eyed just reading that... these are for you .... they don't understand, try not to take it to heart

[Zerbie]

Oh Emproph, that makes me feel sad!

If the wording on this FL amendment is similar to the wording here, or Tx, or OH, have you spoken to your brother about all the other effects the amendment would have besides just banning "gay" marriage? Does it affect straight people? Does it take away partner benefits (people's health care coverage? How many children would lose medical coverage if this amendment passed? What about domestic violence protections stripped away from straight women with abusive boyfriends?).

Tell your bro you really want to talk this over in depth. Sit down with him and explain all those other effects. Ask him if he really wants to see all THOSE things happen in the name of doubly reinforcing the fact that gays can't marry each other. If he supports the amendment, that means he supports EVERYTHING it will do. If he doesn't want people to lose health care coverage, domestic violence protections and so on, then he wants to oppose the amendment! If he hears about the other spin-offs, he may change his mind. Yes, he's already signed the petition, but if he changes his mind before it gets on the ballot in a couple years, then he might vote differently.

There's a dude works full-time at the local grocery store here, bagging groceries. He signed the anti-marriage petition here 6 months ago. AND he has a lesbian sister (he took me aside away from his colleagues and whispered it). I suggested next time he's talking with her and this subject comes up (it has before and he recited the anti-gay propaganda he learned in church), to ask his sister to explain her feelings and to just listen without interrupting, concentrating on what she has to say about her experience. I kept saying "Just listen to your sister. Ask what it means to her and just listen to the answer." Who knows if anything will come of it. But if he talks to me about the amendment again, I will be sure to explain to him all the other effects it would have - it seems pretty clear he isn't up to speed on everything the amendment would do. Said he signed it because they held a signature gathering at his church, so "it was a church thing."


Oh, Emproph, here:

[tdogg]

So I guess I'm not alone when infuriated by self-righteous, 'so-called' 'Christians' who appoint themselves 'judges' of mankind, when they dictate that a faith in God/Jesus/Christianity (you can put your own words in here..) is mutually exclusive to being homosexual. My aunt insist that I do not have God if I'm a lesbian (of course, she calls it my lesbian lifestyle) and no matter how I insist that God is indeed in my life, she insists that He is not.

Recently been back and forth with her and finally THINK I've given up for good. I gave her some web sites and book recommendations but doubt she'll ever take the time to read/research. Says the Lord tells her not to. Also says the Lord told her to end all her emails to me with "The End" so as to construe I'm not allowed to send a reply. She insinuates that I"m just an angry, arrogant self centered person (with no explanation or specific examples) and no matter what I say, she comes back with this same crap. It's frustrating, maddening (and yes, I found myself BECOMING angry at her but decided not to take the bait), saddening, infuriating, all the above!

Ok, just needed to vent, guess I'm still not quite over her most recent bashing...

[Zerbie]

Oh my god Tdogg that's horrible!!

That would have made me livid. I would be spitting nails at that person at machine-gun speed! Good for you for not letting it get you angry! (much )

Obviously, your choice how you handle that relationship, but if it were me, I would pull away.

[tdogg]

This all started up again when my aunt recently sent my sister a general email (you know, the kind they'll send to everyone they know) bashing gays - my sister responded in kind and they went back and forth and then of course I chimed in. I was fairly livid but controlled at least! Oh, what I wanted to say!!!

I have decided to just leave it alone. Don't need it. Kudos to my sister (this one has always supported me) - we have a warrior on our hands! She is such a great person!

Yes, Emproph, it's sad to have our loved ones do these things, it does feel personal. And when they do it in the name of 'love' and/or 'the Lord', makes it even worse. My aunt will be on any and every petition against us GLBT.

[Zerbie]

Why do people who know you and profess to love you take actions that will hurt you? Emproph and Tdogg, I wish I could hug you both right now.

For a moment Tdogg, I thought you meant that your sister agreed with your aunt and they were BOTH chiming in against gays. Glad that wasn't the case. (we need a "whew" emoticon)

Families. . .sometimes capable of incredibly cruel behavior without even seeing that it's cruel. My family did something terrible to my mom's cousin many years ago and blamed him for it. Took them 35 years to finally decide that his being gay "doesn't matter." Even then they never apologized. The big concession was, they talked to him on the phone. But for my family, that was a monumental reconciliation.

[Jennifer5]

I'm so sorry, both of you .

((hugs))
When people just listen to what they're told, and ignor their heart, bad things happen. They often end up hurting people they love and themselves, even if they don't realize it.... in a way deep down it has to be eatting them alive.

The thing is... until you come to religious groups.. you rarely find homophobia... what does this tell you?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

When people just listen to what they're told, and ignor their heart, bad things happen. They often end up hurting people they love and themselves, even if they don't realize it.... in a way deep down it has to be eatting them alive.

The thing is... until you come to religious groups.. you rarely find homophobia... what does this tell you?

That first paragraph, you're correct Jen. I've seen it!

As for the parting question, I suppose you meant it rhetorically, but here's an answer. It tells you that religious groups are one of the last hold-outs of anti-gay bigotry.

When I was 15, homophobia was the norm everyplace I went or looked. I only knew one other person who ever said aloud he was disturbed by the anti-gay stuff. (And we were each monumentally relieved to find out the other felt the same way.) Homophobia was all over my school, my family, the community, the news, and even the theater, at least where I was performing, despite all the (closeted, of course) gay men we knew were sharing the stage with us. Those men overheard a lot of cruel, hurtful, and terrible things said about gays generally, and occasionally stuff was directed at them. They just acted like "nice" people, looked away quietly, and took it. A fact which disturbed me even more than the original homophobic comments from others. I was 19 before I ever met an openly gay person who did not take crap like that.

The gay men I knew growing up responded by looking at the floor and being "nice," or making a joke to change the subject, which made it look to me like they agreed there was something wrong with themselves, and became part of the reason I second-guessed my natural impulse to defend them. I mean, if *they* thought it was wrong, who was I to say different? When I was 19, I met a 16 year-old actor from another school who was already very very very "out," (like, wearing glitter, and flirting with every cute guy he saw, "out") and if anyone tried that crap talk with him, look out!! He was an incredibly tough kid. I gravitated to him so fast! He was a hero to me. Maybe I should have told him so.

Anyway, a lot has changed in the past 15-20 years. I went back to my old k-8 school last year, and all my favorite teachers (plus many who were hired since I graduated) had Safe Zone stickers and PFLAG & GLSEN brochures all around their classrooms. That would have been UNHEARD OF when I was going to school there.

Ultimately, homophobia, in it's most virulent forms, is holding over in certain areas of society, those most resistant to change. Like certain churches. I think it tells us that some churches dread change, and perhaps it has to do with a sense of relinquishing power, or admitting fault. I really don't know the why, however, so I"m not going to specuate.

[Jennifer5]

I love how you react to things... so honestly, I really look up to people like you... just say what you think/how you feel!

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

I just read to last few posts and didn't fully understand who to see the list of the names.... but I literally got teary eyed just reading that... these are for you .... they don't understand, try not to take it to heart

Thank you so much Jennifer, I really appreciate it. I’m ok, and I don’t really take it personally because I know they most likely don’t mean it to be. I think it's the fact that-I-take-it personally that surprises me most. There's something I'm not seeing about myself that bothers me about this. A certain denial that I now have to face (still working on the explanation of it ).

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Tell your bro you really want to talk this over in depth. Sit down with him and explain all those other effects. Ask him if he really wants to see all THOSE things happen in the name of doubly reinforcing the fact that gays can't marry each other. If he supports the amendment, that means he supports EVERYTHING it will do.

...Said he signed it because they held a signature gathering at his church, so "it was a church thing."

Oh, Emproph, here:

Thank you too Zerbie.

Like that guy at the grocery store you spoke with, there’s a story on knowthyneighbor.org Florida, saying that’s what his neighbors said too when he spoke with them about signing it. Which is precisely the kind of “dialogue” the church who posted the names say they want to engender.

My Brother and his wife though are quintessential...what’s the politically correct term for religious nut bags?...

For the record though, recently (few months ago) I had a 3 hour conversation with him about life the universe and everything and he listened and had an open mind too. (A year and a half (of fear) in the making on my part to ensure that what was said would not be misunderstood.)

It took about an hour an a half just to make sure that we were each on the same page before it came to the actual discussion. There were many simple things about what we believed about each others' beliefs that were completely different from what we thought. (hmm... sounds like a thread )

As insular as they are, I’m sure I could get through to them on many levels. I can’t imagine that they would support intentional dishonesty and I can prove at least two examples of that off the top of my head on the Florida4Marriage.org website.

Originally Posted by tdogg

So I guess I'm not alone when infuriated by self-righteous, 'so-called' 'Christians' who appoint themselves 'judges' of mankind, when they dictate that a faith in God/Jesus/Christianity (you can put your own words in here..) is mutually exclusive to being homosexual. My aunt insist that I do not have God if I'm a lesbian (of course, she calls it my lesbian lifestyle) and no matter how I insist that God is indeed in my life, she insists that He is not.

Infuriating is the perfect word. I’ve blogged on other forums recently and I’ve experienced that abject unimaginable arrogance and complete dismissal. What’s worse is that they use That assumption to fortify the "fact" that they're already right.

They’re straight, therefore when they interpret the Bible “through” the Holy Spirit, they’re right. But if we testify to the same, we are being deceived by Satan.. Essentially their ‘holy spirit’ is able to interpret our ‘holy spirit.’

Wait, I'm getting more... Their holy spirit is better than our holy spirit.. Their holy spirit can beat up our holy spirit.. Their holy spirit is rubber our holy spirit is glue, whatever their...() Thus their idea and definition of the word “holy” (= being right).

Originally Posted by tdogg

...finally THINK I've given up for good. I gave her some web sites and book recommendations but doubt she'll ever take the time to read/research. Says the Lord tells her not to. Also says the Lord told her to end all her emails to me with "The End" so as to construe I'm not allowed to send a reply.

So she's speaking for the Lord now? Isn't that placing one's self on the same level as the "Lord?" Remeber the first commandment, in BOTH testaments? I believe that's called Idolatry when it breaks the second commandment, -to treat others the way you would want to be treated.

Originally Posted by tdogg

She insinuates that I"m just an angry, arrogant self centered person (with no explanation or specific examples) and no matter what I say, she comes back with this same crap.

Typical typical projection. Exactly the same as I’ve seen personally on forums and even those that come up in searches. These exact same attitudes, arguments and responses are ubiquitous. When one's doctrine revolves around being right first. Denial of potential error comes second, and any truth that does not conform to their being right can only be seen as an attack (on what allegedly cannot be attacked).

Originally Posted by tdogg

This all started up again when my aunt recently sent my sister a general email (you know, the kind they'll send to everyone they know) bashing gays - my sister responded in kind and they went back and forth and then of course I chimed in. I was fairly livid but controlled at least! Oh, what I wanted to say!!!

I have decided to just leave it alone. Don't need it. Kudos to my sister (this one has always supported me) - we have a warrior on our hands! She is such a great person!

Yes, Emproph, it's sad to have our loved ones do these things, it does feel personal. And when they do it in the name of 'love' and/or 'the Lord', makes it even worse. My aunt will be on any and every petition against us GLBT.

Well if your sister needs help, via you, with one of those emails, let me know. I'd LOVE to dissect one of those puppies.

Originally Posted by Zerbie

...religious groups are one of the last hold-outs of anti-gay bigotry.

Anyway, a lot has changed in the past 15-20 years. I went back to my old k-8 school last year, and all my favorite teachers (plus many who were hired since I graduated) had Safe Zone stickers and PFLAG & GLSEN brochures all around their classrooms. That would have been UNHEARD OF when I was going to school there.

Ultimately, homophobia, in it's most virulent forms, is holding over in certain areas of society, those most resistant to change. Like certain churches. I think it tells us that some churches dread change, and perhaps it has to do with a sense of relinquishing power, or admitting fault. I really don't know the why, however, so I"m not going to specuate.

(What’s that quote, something like nothing changes until the old people die off? I can just imagine them saying about PROVEN lies of these religious leaders, “well if they lied they must have had a good reason..")
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(raises hand) Oh teacher (Zerbie), I’ll specuate.

They’re supremacists. Ask a supremacist to be equal and you’ve already implied that they are inferior. Making you inferior and your request for them to even entertain that they may be equal, automatically null and void.

Supremacy RESTS on the impossibility of equality. To them, equality equals inferiority. Not because they would be 'less than' they think they are, but because to be wrong about having been equal all along would make them "less than" those themselves who already understood they were equal all along.
The “devil” or “Satan” is our ego. The one thing about us that tells us we are separate or different from others.

Their delusion is reflective of the truth. Satan, the devil, our ego, tells us we are more special than everything and everyone else, which is PART of the same message God gives us. God shows us that He loves everything and everyone else in the same infinitely special way.

The difference is in recognizing and realizing that God itself could not exist, be happy, etc., without the Love He has for each of us in particular.

Each of us is literally, a part of the definition of the meaning of “God’s Love.”

Without that understanding first, it's too easy to interpret that love as being the result of, "me," as a flawed human, because “I choose" to be a Christian.

What more insidious delusion than to think you're in a position to control the specialness of God's favor for you?

-Thanks you guys. This really helps to nullify a lot of the fury part. Gotta keep my eyes on the progress aspect.

[Jennifer5]

I think you may be on a roll here Emproph.... keep up the good work!

Talk to you later!

[Zerbie]

Dear Emproph,

Yes, it reads to me like you manage to take these things personally. That's why I comment so often about why do you read them EVERY DAY?

How about just reading them every OTHER day?