Could use a little help.

[Emproph]

This link is to the blog on the new Florida knowthyneighbor.org site which recently posted the names of those who signed the petition for the anti-gay marriage amendment here in Florida that they are trying to get on the ballot for ‘08.

http://knowthyneighbor.blogs.com/florida/

I’ve got to respond to some of these and I don’t know where to begin. I know that some of you also argue this stuff on other sites. If you get the chance to stop by and throw in a few cents I’d appreciate it.

It might be an opportunity to reach some average ‘Joes.’ I know that www.florida4marriage.org has a press release (2nd link down) regarding knowthyneighbor and there have been news stories on it too, one on CNN.

There are many positive comments but the negative one's are all the same hackneyed 'arguments,' so it’s not for the faint of heart.

Some of the comments:

-You are wanting this country to give you special rights because of who you choose to have sexual feelings toward.

-look at The Netherlands, Canada, Massachussetts and anywhere else homosexuality is endorsed...it always harms children.
______
-I can't believe that this is a real church sponsoring this. Simple facts from the bible.

1 Cor 6: 7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

It's not me to judge, but this sounds like a lukewarm church to me.
_______
-You are a Rev. Ralph? Then you should know that Leviticus is old testament law which we have been relieved of when Jesus paid the price for our sins. The passages here clearly state Cor 6: meaning from the book of Corinthians chapter 6. Last time I looked I found that under New Testament which defines the path to eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(This is mine but I haven't posted it)
Luke 16:18
Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

-So Jesus calls remarriage adultery but says nothing about homosexuality. Why is this not a greater sin? Why are they not more upset about this?

-but Get Dr. James Dobson, or any other well known Christian pastor, and he is laughed at for the values Christ has taught him to teach to the nation.

-I believe the Bible and all of what it says 100%

-who you CHOOSE to have sexual feelings toward is wrong,

-Jesus still loves you, but wants you to repent before it's too late. I'll be praying for you all.
_________
It's a dilly of a pickle I know, but keep it in mind for the next time you want to come down a bit from feeling just a little too happy-go-lucky.

[Zerbie]

Oh E honey, I'm way too sleepy to take any of that on now. . . but I didn't wanna log off without chiming in fwiw to say I'm with ya. (pats shoulder)

Harms children! What a loada gobbledey-hooey-gook.

I remember being 6 years old and watching my family rail against homosexuals and how they had to protect me from them, and usta think, "I don't need my family to protect me from homosexuals. I need to protect homosexuals from my family." I was SCARED of what my family might do to them. (With reason as I later learned.) It is a clear-cut case of innocent victim/aggressor. A six-year old can grasp it immediately. These folks are using EFFORT to refuse to see the obvious.

I applaud your talent for dissection and analysis E, but to some extent I think those who refuse to see or understand the matters here will always be with us. Best to you in your conversations with those folks on the other boards.

[Jennifer5]

Emproph like Zerbie I'm a little to tired to take this on at the moment... but will be back to look into this more. I'll be back tomorrow...

[awediot]

Hey Emproph,

I've been battling in the belly of the beast on the CARM boards still. Talk about some . Bop over and check out some of what you've missed lately... (the Dobbs staff member suggesting men shower with their little boys to show them a REAL penis and keep them straight was priceless.- I'll have to track it down again-) Check out my effort to turn the tables in the Sheep in Wolfs Cloaking thread (all about the shabby treatment of Christians toward gays.) May be some ideas to inspire and mine...

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

Emproph like Zerbie I'm a little to tired to take this on at the moment... but will be back to look into this more. I'll be back tomorrow...

Thanks Jennifer, no problem. I just wanted to post this while I still had the motivation.

It’s an interesting concept/tactic to be aware of though, and they want to make more of them. I hope so, the other side is all up in arms about it.

On one of the tv news stories (posted on the site), a woman complained that the people on this list might become “targets.” That about sums up the attitude of those behind this amendment petition. It’s ok to repeatedly “target” all gays as child molesters on their website, but the ones doing the targeting should be able to do so anonymously.

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Oh E honey, I'm way too sleepy to take any of that on now. . . but I didn't wanna log off without chiming in fwiw to say I'm with ya. (pats shoulder)

Emproph whimpers as he looks up in gratitude with pouty puppy dog eyes.

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I remember being 6 years old and watching my family rail against homosexuals and how they had to protect me from them, and usta think, "I don't need my family to protect me from homosexuals. I need to protect homosexuals from my family."

That’s absolutely perfect. I think that’s why the youth today are more accepting. With the exposure they have to positive portrayals of us they recognize better the meaning of priority. Does this harm me? Does this harm anyone? That’s priority.

Originally Posted by Zerbie

These folks are using EFFORT to refuse to see the obvious.

I applaud your talent for dissection and analysis E, but to some extent I think those who refuse to see or understand the matters here will always be with us.

I appreciate it and I know what you’re saying, but like Joe Brummer’s site “Replace Lies With Truth” is my attitude here.

The conclusion I’m coming to is not to change their minds but to fortify the minds of people like us to know that our philosophy of love ONLY or love first, is superior. The mere fact that we do not feel comfortable saying that our way is superior is indicative of the fact that we know that we are NOT superior. That means you got the message of love.

There is a way of expressing this so that it does not come across or engender arrogance or pride in us. It’s pure logic, just got to pin it down a bit better yet.

Without the idea of Love Only you are not worshiping God (who is Love) and loving your neighbor as yourself, as Jesus/God commanded, unconditionally.

When you muddy that message with the semantics of the rest of the Bible, literalism, inerrancy, then there is no standard as to what “sin” is. You can dismiss the command to love your neighbor a thousand ways in the Bible, but you can only ‘love only’ or love unconditionally in one way. That’s the standard. Without it, nothing has been learned, humans have been loving conditionally since the inception of time. No infinite God came down to teach us what we already know.

THIS is how we know better, this is my goal, to show the same conviction and certainty that they think they have, and to show how to explain the difference. Those like us who get it will become better warriors. Sword sharpener, that's what I am, or at least aspire to be. (Sword of truth).

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by awediot

Hey Emproph, I've been battling in the belly of the beast on the CARM boards still. Talk about some . Bop over and check out some of what you've missed lately... (the Dobbs staff member suggesting men shower with their little boys to show them a REAL penis and keep them straight was priceless.- I'll have to track it down again-) Check out my effort to turn the tables in the Sheep in Wolfs Cloaking thread (all about the shabby treatment of Christians toward gays.) May be some ideas to inspire and mine...

I figured that’s where you’ve been lately. I’m specifically avoiding that place until I get a piece worked out for an idolatry thread. I want to make sure it’s done right.

This place is distracting enough, and here it’s nearly purely positive. But believe me, I am consistently tempted to click on the CARM button on my toolbar, I’ll be back.

PS Nice smilies, love that one eyeball . Have you seen the smiley where he's bashing his own head against a brick wall?

[Lydia]

I don't have enough time to help you out on all of the points right now, but I'll try to return with ideas on more of them soon.

Originally Posted by Emproph

I believe the Bible and all of what it says 100%

One word: Leviticus. It's a gold mine of obscure bible passages.

I highly doubt that any emotionally healthy Christian, no matter how devout, honestly believes that it's a sin to wear clothing made from two or more sources (i.e. flax and cotton). Or that it's a sin to eat shrimp. Or that women are ritually unclean after childbirth or their monthly period. Or that children who disobey their parents should be put to death.

[Jennifer5]

Emproph.... any time I read what you have to say, I don't know why you would need anyones help with anything... you have a way with words and it touches people.

I'm not good at this stuff and you are... but I'll do what-ever I can if you need help... just let me know if there's something I can do to help.

[Lydia]

Are you still looking for help, Emproph?

[tdogg]

Sorry to not help you Emproph!

But i was wondering, where has Awediot been??? Awe, r u out there???

[Jennifer5]

Tell me what you need Emproph and I'll see what I can do...


Yeah, where is Awediot?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Sorry to not help you Emproph!

But i was wondering, where has Awediot been??? Awe, r u out there???

Me too. . . Hey Awe dude, yer missed here.

[Emproph]

I was just a bit overwhelmed, there didn’t seem to be many dissenting voices and it was a new site and I knew both straight and gay people would be going there who may not be 'blog savvy,' at least not with the Biblical arguments given by those who are straight-up-out-of-their-minds.

I went back later on and was relieved to see that one person, a reverend, had taken up quite a bit of slack in several of the threads. A sample of his work below:

Ok and so we go to Corinthians... where it states that fornicators etc and effeminate shall not inherit the kingdom of God.. so effeminate women are forbidden the kingdom of heaven? or does that just apply to men? I've seen plenty of effeminate heterosexual men... So they are denied the kingdom of heaven... Ok so I'll move to the fornicators... fornication is unwed sexual intercourse... So I know of no one NONE that can inherit the kingdom of heaven NONE... And if Jesus died for our sins then they are gone. Allow marriage in the gay community will make the fornication issue mute. Also why should Christian values be applied to non Christians?

So then I added a couple of posts of my own, I still have some more to say but I'm no longer in a rush.

My original intention though (and I’d like to keep this thread open for such a purpose), was more of a call for those who are used to arguing these same hackneyed points on other fora.

Not that worlds are ever truly rocked, but sometimes you can stop them from spinning out of orbit so they at least move on to their next item of idiocy. Otherwise if they think they’re getting the upper hand they’re like wolves after a fresh kill and it get’s ugly quick.

So like I said, I’d still like to keep this thread open in case anyone is stumped with a specific argument or just needs general help with one. Like we did in Keltic’s thread a few weeks back. We can argue them here or I'm willing to travel if I have time (point and click-wise ).

Thanks again,
-Patrick

P.S. He's probably over at CARM waging war, I’m waiting to get back there myself. If you visit though be careful, it’s a dragon’s lair. -Not sweet potato pie like here...

[Zerbie]

Carm? Just popped over there and glanced through for about 10 minutes.

Good GRIEF!!!



You two post over there?

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Carm? Just popped over there and glanced through for about 10 minutes.

Good GRIEF!!!



You two post over there?

Tell me about it, it's Citizen Link Live over there..

-To be fair though there's some seriously good guys there who know how to make sense. There's one guy (gal?), Brachnius I think, who almost only asks questions and I crack up every time I read one of his posts, especially on the gay/anti-gay threads. He's completely playing them, they have no clue, and they keep coming back for more. Best show in the house, you should see some of the explanations they come up when responding to his questions.

___________________________

Just a note if anyone's interested:

You can read my last post on knowthyneighbor.org. Either watch the CNN interview with Miles O’Brien at the top first, or just scroll down to mine (same name, Emproph), where I personally Ginsu Mr. O'Brien.

It’s a little long and a bit acerbic, but I think it's pretty good, IMHO.

(Humble, pfft, who am I kidding?)

[tdogg]

Emphroph

will be getting back to this thread, and you, when I have more time (at work and need to get busy!) - I see where this is going and have an interest in knowing how to respond to those who continually accuse and berate me. Thank God they are few!

I will be gettin' back to ya on this one - want to read all the posts again and your links before actually responding/asking more questions. Thx!!

[awediot]

Thanks ya'll for the missing,

I have been posting more on CARM, as well as just prioritizing differently. I enjoy the banter and discourse too much and better things to do have suffered a little. A technical forced pause in posting triggered a more intentional effort to stay away for a time and rearrange some things with my 3d life... hope to stick around to stir up or settle down more often.

Zerb, careful over there... part of a recent post:

Mat.12:36,37
36~"But I say unto you, that every idle word that man shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37~For by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Some of the idle bright minds and their penchant to wallow in redundant, meticulous back biting and group wound licking astounds me on this site. Threads are routinely baited in new garb, a question is cast out, answered, refuted, bragged about, humble pied and tied to old, on going rivalries, all in the first post, in the same voice.... I am sorry to say that the nasty reputation of this forum precedes it, and I'm pretty thick skinned, but the animosity, restrained and bubble wrapped only by the strict rules, permeates enough to discourage the majority of new members from posting more than a couple times...

...the replies I got back were quite interesting. The couple walls of gay debates are rather amazing and I have caused a bit of back peddling and second guessing as well... I'm just as disagreeable and caustic there. But I must say, the nonviolence of SF has been good practice and a quality I can now take to other battles, and right to the face of some of our adversaries. ...You guys are too nice

[Jennifer5]

You got to do better than that Awediot... we miss you! You're always the one mixing things up so they don't get boring and you're always bringing us new things to discuss.... please don't vanish for to long on us

[Zerbie]

Yea seriously Awe, you are missed and wanted over here. You have such a unique voice, only you can shake things up over here, where the shaking is greatly needed. After all, if we are the ones charging into socio-political battle, we had better be prepared by a lot of shaking. We need you.

I didn't like CARM at all. Blech! Why get surrounded by such negative energies? Unless you look at it as more sword sharpening/strategy honing exercise. I finally signed up for email alerts from my local anti-gay (the homosexuals are destroying society at large!) policy group, and my husband's response was that it's about time I signed up to know better what "the opponent" is doing. And now he wants to teach me to play chess as practice in strategy-honing. I love my hubby!

Anyway, Awe, I recognize you have important 3D things to do, but please come back here again and share your thoughts. Hubby was talking to me about spirituality and religion a lot yesterday and today, and at one point I said to him, "Yes, Awe says the same thing. . ." see, great minds. . . .