Poll on Reconciling Faith and Sexuality

[Zerbie]

Well - thought this whole thread, arguments and all, might be interesting to read again.

[zorrosdad]

No Conflict and Spirituality,

I don't believe there was ever much of a conflict in this area for me. I knew in my heart that who I was was Okay by God. I was always more concerned about the opinion and reaction of those around me. Being a Catholic there is thiss little clause about "it" being between you and God. It's your own conscience you have to deal with. If you don't believe it to be a sin then it is not a sin for you. Well, I never believed it to be a sin. How could it be? It was/is about love between two adults. That part was easy for me. The more difficult thing for me was dealing with the opinion/reaction of others but after my mother and father rejected me there wasn't much concern about that either. I mean after the people who I assumed would love you/me the most and forever turned me out how could anyone else really hurt me? The biggest struggle of my life was finding a way to reconcile my open life as a Gay man in a commited relationship with life in the church. That went on for years. Some accepted it and some rejected it. I never became very involved in the church because of it. I even joined the Episcopal church in the attempt to become more fully included in the life of the church. The priest and his wife, who I thought were my firends, allowed me to become extremely involved. I was even on the path to the priesthood, which was a life long desire. Then I discovered that I was simply a pet project. They, he really, had no real intention of stepping out and putting his career on the line for me. So, I have recently gone back to the Catholic church satisfied at the path the journey has taken me. I have learned a great deal. I am more spiritual than ever before, more fulfilled and closer to God. I thrive on the ritual every Sunday, well almost every Sunday, Mass isn't everything. I have discovered a new path and the True God who doesn't care where you worship or if you worship or what others think of you or what you think of God. Life is about living and growing and gaining experience as well as making choices. Every choice leads in a new direction and a new experience that is just what you need whether you know it or not.

So, go with God and enjoy the sex. It doesn't last forever!

Trent

[Deb]

I have read this thread a number of times. Every time, this list stares at me like a testament of my fragmented, chaotic struggle for peace. Each time I think I will read through and pick a number that best describes how I’ve dealt with my Christianity and sexuality. But, I just can’t. After all these years, I am no more near a resolution then I ever have been. My head is getting it, but at 4 in the morning I wake with a horrid feeling that I can’t bare. I expect my feelings will change as I keep pressing in this direction, but it is so odd and I have fought it for so long, it feels like a nightmare come to life. I don’t know how to live like this.
In a few prior decades some years back striving to accept my sexuality resulted in a moral meltdown. My relationship with God can’t bare a moral melt down and I just don't want to do that again. Then there was the decade of openly being ‘gay’ and living with a partner. That cost a lot in terms of family members. When she died after 10 years of being together it was easy to ~sigh~ ... "repent"... and get right with God. Go through some deliverance and yada yada yada... until I was pretty convinced myself that I had been, after all these years, healed. I even ventured out and allowed myself to have a best friend. Well, sure I don’t have to say what happen there. I felt completely defeated. How at 54 could this happen to me again? I made a decision to stop the fight and accept who I am, and have always been. Once and for all I must make peace with myself.
Reading the articles on this and other sites makes me feel better. I have an idea that as I find reconciliation so I can be at peace with myself, my life will change. I don’t know if I can tolerate it. I guess a more accurate thing to say here is my life changed and it is so overwhelming I must do something to find peace.
I am miserable.
This is not my life plan.
I’m disappointed with life.
I don’t see a good resolution here. But there are 3 things in my life that I have come to realize are unchangeable. 1. My children came from my body and will always be my own darling children, 2. I believe God came to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ and gave himself to redeem mankind and lastly, 3. with out a shadow of a doubt, I have always desired to be with females and not males. So, my task at hand is to somehow, by the mercy of God, bring these three aspects of my life truth into harmony. It sounds simple enough. I just can’t stand this horrible feeling in my chest and don’t have a clue how to make it go away. But I have determined to not go back anymore into a state of personal denial. I’m done with that. thanks for listening.

[ladyinred]

My mother never rejected me.. This is what she said in fact.. "How can a parent reject their own child and not love them.". She couldn't understand parents that behaved that way..

[Pablo Rafael]

Originally Posted by Deb

Once and for all I must make peace with myself...
I have determined to not go back anymore into a state of personal denial. I’m done with that. Thanks for listening.

Deb,

If you are like me then making peace with yourself is critical. Both of us are in the middle age years. To have a change of mind and heart might be harder for us than for those younger. My journey has gone through the following stages.

1. Didn't even know what being gay meant.
2. Knew I was attracted to men but didn't think I was gay.
3. Knew I was gay but wouldn't admit it to myself.
4. Admitted to myself I was gay, but knew it was evil.
5. Came to the realization that being gay was OK with me and with God. (At about age 40.)

I had prayed for years that God would make me straight. When I gave up on that, I prayed that he would help me to ignore my sexuality. I first came to question the "evilness" of being gay after reading Mel White's Stranger at the Gate. It caused me to search other books and resources. I still wasn't convinced that I could reconcile me belief in the Bible with my homosexuality.

I decided that I would leave it up to God. I wanted to believe that I was OK and that God loved me exactly how I was. I asked Him to show me what He wanted from me in life. I asked Him to let me know what path to take. I was going to let go of my ideas and wait for His answer. It seemed to me that God told me, "Why have you been fighting this for so long; let go and trust in me. You are just what I wanted you to be. " From that moment on I have been at peace with myself and my sexuality. I believe that I had been fighting God's plan for me. Once I decided to let go and let God take control, my life has changed.

I don't know if my story is of any help. Each person has to deal with life in his/her own way. My way was just to let go. God did the rest.


Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Deb]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

1. Didn't even know what being gay meant.
2. Knew I was attracted to men but didn't think I was gay.
3. Knew I was gay but wouldn't admit it to myself.
4. Admitted to myself I was gay, but knew it was evil.
5. Came to the realization that being gay was OK with me and with God. (At about age 40.)

I had prayed for years that God would make me straight. When I gave up on that, I prayed that he would help me to ignore my sexuality. I first came to question the "evilness" of being gay after reading Mel White's Stranger at the Gate. It caused me to search other books and resources. I still wasn't convinced that I could reconcile me belief in the Bible with my homosexuality.

I decided that I would leave it up to God. I wanted to believe that I was OK and that God loved me exactly how I was. I asked Him to show me what He wanted from me in life. I asked Him to let me know what path to take. I was going to let go of my ideas and wait for His answer. It seemed to me that God told me, "Why have you been fighting this for so long; let go and trust in me. You are just what I wanted you to be. " From that moment on I have been at peace with myself and my sexuality. I believe that I had been fighting God's plan for me. Once I decided to let go and let God take control, my life has changed.

I don't know if my story is of any help. Each person has to deal with life in his/her own way. My way was just to let go. God did the rest.


Tu Amigo, Pablo

I really get all this, I realize so many of us have the same story or near it. Yet it seems we have been alone too. The finding I am not alone is a major thing for me right now. I would love to get over this current hurdle and in fact feel I will, somehow. because others have who also love the Lord as I do. I would love for this transistion to get over with. shoot... It kind of feels like some expectation of ourselves and life has to come to a breaking of sorts. I'm willing.
thank you to sharing.

[novaseeker]

Hi Deb!

It's a process for all of us, I think. It takes a good deal of patience with ourselves while we are working things out over the course of time. I don't think that there are short cuts, and I'm really only working my way through this as well myself, but it feels like the right thing to be doing, as difficult as it it. Keep in mind that God loves you, and remember to love yourself as well .. and be gentle and patient with yourself as you sort through these things.

[Zerbie]

Deb, after reading your posts I just wanna send you a bunch of these:


You are NOT alone!! You have friends here. Stay the course. If you don't give up, things will get better. It's okay to be uncertain. That's part of the deal, part of the path to finding the answer that with all the depth of your soul resonates as meant For You.

What Pablo said is brilliant! Let go of the answer you hope to hear and be receptive to what God speaks to you. Then listen, just listen.

I so hear you about 4am - my friends and I (years ago now) used to talk about this very subject, and enough of us woke at 3 or 4am feeling doubtful of God's acceptance of our existence, that we named it "The 4 am doubts." One of us might get a phone call, "Hey, I'm having the 4am doubts, can we get together and just watch TV?" It's tough stuff - having the slightly cute name for it helped us deal. Just keep on praying and listening, and meanwhile enjoy the rest of life. We are so much more than our orientation, and during crisis times we can sorta forget that. Go do something you love and let yoursef feel joy.

Peace to you Deb.

[marutidas]

14. Spiritualy Ecletic, and Open Sexuality.
I find stength in my sexuality, I have empathy and a deep caring nature
I Feel joy for anyone who has found love, Gay or straight. Celebrating Love in all of its forms. My road here has been long and bumpy, just as everyone here has been. I have seen the love of God, in all relationships, not just Hetero. I feel God in my heart and I strive to see God in everyone else.

The plain and simple truth God is Love. All love flows through God. To deny any love, is not God's doing. If you are going to hate someone, do it honestly, do not hide behind God.

Sexuality is a human issue, not one to be analysed with the Bible.
A healty sex life can deep and strengthen a relationship. Having and open honest talk about sex, is not something that the church at large, is comfortable with in the first place.

Do I mean that I have come to this understanding over night, no.
But awakening takes time, and depends on the persons life. It usally happens in stages. It can be easy, if the parents are open and welcoming, and it can be hard if the parent is expecting grandchildren or if they cannot accept their own children as God made them.

But, I take the suffering that I have experienced, as lessons that have made me a better person, I will help shoulder the burden of another, If they will accept it.

So, I don't fit into one of the numbers or catagory. I have come to my own conclusions, through alot of suffering, searching, praying, meditating, talking and reading.

~~~Maruti Das

[tdogg]

Hi Deb,

One of the hardest things for me to do was to ignore all the teaching and preaching by those who strived to instill in me that homosexuality was/is wrong, sinful, an abomination. I never truly believed it in my heart, but I listened, and didn't do anything to open discussion, debate or allow anyone to know that part of me. Eventually of course I accepted myself and with that acceptance came a profound knowledge from within my heart (my soul?) that it was not displeasing to God. It was more a non-conviction of wrong-doing than anything, but confirmed to my heart that God accepted me just as He created me and accepted my relationship as well.

It's so difficult to set aside all that we have been taught as Christians and just go with our gut feelings. For me, think I was able to do that easy enough because I never bought into what I taught as far as believing it. It would have been even easier (now, harder at the time) had I allowed myself to be 'me' and disputed what I was taught.

Not sure how this helps?? But my heart goes out to you Deb, so hope you are feeling the hugs, love and prayers being sent your way!

(((((((( ))))))))

[tpdncr4christ]

God made me. He made my toes. He made my feet. He made me tall. He made me a boy. He made me gay. He did not make me a sinner. I did that. I asked for forgiveness, He forgave me. Then I moved on.

I think...

[Daniel]

Happened to be watching CNN Anderson Cooper (a semi-closed gay man!) this evening. He had Justin Lee on after a report on the division within the Episcopal church.

This young man is doing his part to reach conservatives- crossing the divide- with the message that one can be gay and christian- and for all intent and purposes- looks like he's doing a good job of it at http://www.gaychristian.net/communit...p?tid/13805361.

[BronzDragon]

Originally Posted by amayesd

For those interested in participating ... How have you reconciled your faith with your sexuality (or with your acceptance of homo/bi-sexuality if your are heterosexual)? Please choose the one most significant response to the question below.

14. Other?

» Thom says: ☛ Before my midlife crisis, I asked questions that “normal” Pentecostalists found offensive and repulsive. I was struggling with ideas that were inside me and those that were being presented as true from outside me. Then one day someone dear to me was going through a crisis and chose suicide (failed), then exiled me to the streets. Facing once more a need, I found (for the third time in my life) the church to be other than advertized (and not just the Pentecostal, either).

In a moment of rage I rejected God, the Church, and those claiming to be Christian. In due course of time my sense of fairness kicked in and I started looking for answers elsewhere. I Studied to become Wiccan (DCWA), then evolved into Paganism, then into spiritual Satanism. As I’ve matured, I’ve sought to find reasons for behavior, guilt and shame, and to fight against religious fascism. During all this time I’ve dropped any pretenses, penetrated deeply to find out who and what I am, and embraced that which will survive my death, and dropped that which would not.

With Mel White’s book, Religion Gone Bad, I have seen that there is another way to be Christian than the pretenses I’ve grown up with. No, I am not taking up the Christian label, that would require rejecting all that has become me over the past twenty or so years. I am, however, ready to repair the damage that resulted, and to reincorporate the better parts that I threw out with the baptismal water. Is this the right path? It is for me.

So, to answer your question, accepting my gay identity has been part of a larger growth in my life.

[Deb]

Novaseeker, Zerbie and tdogg.... thank you .... really .. thanks.
It makes a big difference to know I'm not alone.

[Deb]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Happened to be watching CNN Anderson Cooper (a semi-closed gay man!) this evening. He had Justin Lee on after a report on the division within the Episcopal church.

This young man is doing his part to reach conservatives- crossing the divide- with the message that one can be gay and christian- and for all intent and purposes- looks like he's doing a good job of it at http://www.gaychristian.net/communit...p?tid/13805361.

well worth watching... thanks for sharing.

[scott snedeker]

My nature is who I am. I was made this way. So I choose an affirming symbol for my connection with source (God if you please) that is the sigil of Pan. His model is the touchstone the vibrates best with my inner joy, empowerment and deep feelings. Positve touchstones affirm (nourshment). Negative touchstones feel bad (spiritual poison)

He did not accept men having sex with men. He had sex with men (according to myth). Any concept a human has of connection with God is a model. Pan is therefore my logical choice . He was paternal loving and like me has the spirit of a satyr.

So I went from divorce (13) to other (14) which is I am gay by design, a deliberate intention by Source (God)

[RainbowL'elly]

when i finally decided to identify as bisexual i had already abandoned the strict constructs of church and dogma that i had learned growing up from the simplistic sunday school lessons and the prejudicial preachers. i never really had to come to terms with my sexuality in light of my faith because my faith had already come to terms with 'variant' sexualities. i watched my cousin go through a very hard coming-out phase. i remember one night when he called me near tears asking me if him being gay meant he was a bad person and he was going to hell. how could i say anything but no? i didnt believe he was going to hell, i never really had, even though i really hadnt thougth about questioning that part of faith until then. i started talking through it with him over the phone- God made you, the Bible says He made everything and He made it perfect- therefore you are perfect. Jesus only gave one commandment and that was to love- to deny yourself that would be going against what Jesus commanded. i decided after talking to him and comforting him that i was going to have to seriously question this church thing. he is one of my best friends- i adore him- and i knew right then that i was going to have to deal with a lot more of this kind of questioning from other people and a lot harder conversations with him over the course of my life. i decided that if God was such an arse that He would create someone purely for the purpose of condemning them that i would have nothing to do with Him. thankfully i discovered that a lot of the people who had been getting all preachy with me were the ones that i shoudlnt have been listening to in the first place because they had no idea what they were talking about. since that was about four years before i openly identified as bi, i had a bit of time to figure out my faith before i thougth too much about my sexuality. i hung out with my friends who werent straight and learned a lot from being with them and being accepted into their lives and their trust. i let them teach me. i didnt date until college and that helped a lot too- i had time to think before i let hormones drive me nutters.
there's how i am a 1 and a 14 and quite a bit about why i am a 9 as well.

i came to decide that John Lennon was right all along-
"All you need is Love
Love is all you need"
if God is Love and you use conventional definitions in the song as well, everything is covered- John Lennon gave us the great commandment in a modern form we could all enjoy, no matter what our religion or spirituality.

with love being the sole focus of our needs and God being the creator of Love, how can we go wrong? if we focus on how we love one another, we are living in the image of God.

[Daniel]

I'd like to bump this thread, and even tweak it in a slightly different direction if possible.

I've been investigating other websites that deal with matters gay and christian and found myself coming away with this question: "Why does it seem that christians- and gay christians in particular- have what seems to be a preoccupation with celibacy? And if this is an accurate observation, does this have anything to do with internalized homophobia?"

It seems to me that gay people, the more conservative they are, the more they tend toward this kind of thinking.

I must confess to having a period during my life when I thought that holiness and purity had everything to do with celibacy and the renunciation of sexual pleasure. But then, it eventually occurred to me (caution: I'm going to be bawdy here) that purity had more to do with what came out of my mouth than what I put in it.

What do you think? Does internalized homophobia play a role here? And if so, how? And if not, why?

Another thought comes to mind: in reference to another thread here, is celibacy, in the mind of a gay person trying to evade his/her orientation, the grandest of covers?

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by Daniel

I've been investigating other websites that deal with matters gay and christian and found myself coming away with this question: "Why does it seem that christians- and gay christians in particular- have what seems to be a preoccupation with celibacy? And if this is an accurate observation, does this have anything to do with internalized homophobia?"

It seems to me that gay people, the more conservative they are, the more they tend toward this kind of thinking.

I must confess to having a period during my life when I thought that holiness and purity had everything to do with celibacy and the renunciation of sexual pleasure. But then, it eventually occurred to me (caution: I'm going to be bawdy here) that purity had more to do with what came out of my mouth than what I put in it.

What do you think? Does internalized homophobia play a role here? And if so, how? And if not, why?

Another thought comes to mind: in reference to another thread here, is celibacy, in the mind of a gay person trying to evade his/her orientation, the grandest of covers?

To your bawdiness, Daniel, you're in very good company:
In Matthew 15:11, Jesus is quoted as saying:

it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles.

Bawdy on, Daniel.

This thread exhibits the absolute unfairness and destruction that occurs from a culture's over-arching desire to find impurity in others, so that their own will pass under the radar. I literally wept over some of the pain expressed in posts like Deb's.

Why doesn't a man who has a proclivity towards balling anybody with an "inny", as opposed to an "outy", have to go through the angst and soul-searching that other people do? Well, because he's acting like a "real man". While there may be some social consequences, acceptance is easy because "he" is the dominant culture that sets the norm.

He will be a "normal" man with a little bit of a sexual problem.

A woman who does the same with every "outy" she meets will be considered a deviant whore, slut, or some other truly disparaging title and be ostracized by "decent" society. And the, God forbid, innys with innys and outys with outys - well, they're just deviants of the supreme sort.

Each of these will be a sexual problem on legs, with a little bit of humanity that we need to search out in order to bring them to the fullness of health. What bullshit. What damage results.

Dominant culture sets the stage upon which the play of life is performed. Dominant culture decides who is, and isn't, suitable for the roles; how the characters are to be played in order to fulfil the intent of the writer; even what scenes will be cut from the final production because they are inadequate or sub-par.

We are all raised in this dominant culture, and we are all affected by it. Is it in any way surprising that GLBT have homophobia lurking in the psyches. Hell, no. How could it be otherwise?

Dominant culture says that, unless you stick it in the same places I stick mine, you are deviant. That goes, also, for the person who happens to be the one it stick it into - ultimately dominant culture believes and teaches that they are deviant as well.

This is the same culture that expouses that girls be pure and demure, all the while trying to dress them up in scimpy, provacative outfits. The result, dominant culture can fantasize and masturbate over these little sex-toys that it has created, and demean them for being impure little tarts.

Dominant culture is the sickness that needs cured. The rest of us represent nothing more than the collateral damage of the dominant psychosis.

Dominant culture only wants celibacy for those whose appetite is different. It wants every woman to be a virgin, every time it screws her. It wants to be able to get off, but the object of its sexual desire should not. And for those who don't get off the same way - well, the only solution is abstinence. Celebate is wat you should be - not me. I'm a real man.

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by davidcom

Everything that Andy says is true (surprising huh? even a stopped clock is right twice a day I guess) but there is more.

Unless you're in Europe or many other places. While in England, I was only right once a day.

Originally Posted by davidcom

Christianity never fully freed itself from the taint of gnostic dualism. (Spiritual=good=God; Physical=not good=NOT God; Even Augustine who eschewed every form of heresy swallows and magnifies this aspect of gnosticism. And of course this dualism is related to another one which is Male(outie)=spiritual=good=God; Female(inny)=physical=evil=Not God.

So for conservative (read Augustinian) Christians, sex=physical=not good=NOT God. AND female(inny)= not good=NOT God. AND being gay=being inny=physical=not good=NOT God.

So even if you are a heterosexual conservative Christian you will be obligated to feel paroxisms of guilt about your sexual desires, but if you are a GAY Conservative Christian you get the double whammy. So if you are a GAY CC and you come to the conclusion (against all odds) that there is nothing wrong with who you are, you may still believe that Celibacy is the proper choice for you since sex still=physical which still=not spiritual which = not good and NOT God.

The problem with this, as with all calls by the church for Gays to remain celibate, is that it assumes that celibacy is a choice rather than a charism (spiritual gift) which assumption is UNBIBILICAL!

Do you mean to say that Origen's self-imposed castration may not have been God's will?