Is Andrea Yates a victim of fundamentalism?

[NathanATX]

She was just found to be not guilty by reason of insanity in the deaths of her four children.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060726/...us/yates_trial

I've been following her case and some of her testimony sounds cryptically like things I have heard from fundamentalists and even, more specifically, my own mother.

I have long felt that my mom is weaker emotionally than most people, due to a traumatic & abusive childhood, two divorces, etc. And I feel like her church was her "literal" salvation because she was able to find strength in something outside herself.

I also believe that fundamentalist doctrine preys on the weak, hurting, disadvantaged, etc.

All of this makes it easier to understand "why" she is so unconscionably hateful... It is usually easy to forgive her and I am realizing that the blame doesn't truly lie with my mom, but with the people and the doctrines that have profited and benefited from controlling her.

Could my mom have become an "Andrea Yates?" Isn't that what she's doing, "killing" me spiritually & emotionally because I'm "under Satan's control?"

I believe Fundamentalism is incredibly more dangerous than we realize. Look at what it can do in Islam... convince precious young men & women to kill themselves in suicide attacks.

I'm kinda creeped out right now...

[Liberal Crozier]

---is changing in your country on many different fronts.

Anglicanism had little schism prior to the 1976 ordination of women, when several important schisms occurred. With +Gene's consecration as bishop, these schismatic groups have coalesced since Cantuaris suggests that he will recognise them and grant an associative membership to ECUSA the liberal group.

Lutheranism has three major groups.....the least conservative ELCA, the middle conservative LCMS, and the ultraconservative WELS. There are other "fundamentalist" groups.

Methodism has three unofficial levels of theology and churchmanship. It is often the second largest denomination in the Old South.....and was usually the church of the more educated elements of a small societal group. Before 1968 merger of the Methodist Episcopal Church and the United Evangelical Brethren....you had the development of a "Geneva Reformation" wing of a new denomination.

Presbyterianism was brought to these shores by the Irish and Scottish Protestant immigrants of the nineteenth century. It is also a socio-economic winner with many educated professionals....many of whom have left a low church Episcopal or Methodist background if not a cradle and generational family denomination.


The attrition, as well as with lapsed European and Hispanic-descended Roman Catholics, are with the AG and some "non-denominational, often charismatic, superchurches where theology beyond fundamental principles is left to the thousands of "popes per pew" - while decrying the infallibility of the man in Rome, while stealing their sheep. Of course, for us, both voices are shrill examples of theocracy with neconservatism.

It is true, Nathan, that the Southern Baptist Churches were evangelical and non-credal in true Anabaptist Confessional belief. The SBC was hijacked by a group of theocons who were successful with DTS and Moehler is the perfect example of the theocon divinity school president with ties to the GOP, the Pharisees and the Homophobes. I am sure that the man and his family play football, eat pork and shellfish, or that they engage in marital relationships during the period of her uncleanliness, to say nothing of preparing food during that period, and not having her utensils cleaned at the temple. Certain abominations are either delicious or orgiastic, and are to be engaged in regardless of menstrual cycles, or dietary restrictions of the Holiness Code.

[Zerbie]

((((((((((Nathan))))))))))

I have so little understanding of religious fundamentalism I don't dare weigh in with much.

What becomes important, when we don't understand what is going on, when we all disagree, is compassion. I think it may be about the only thing left to reduce things down to, when faced with an ongoing unwinnable debate. Kind of like the New Testament law, Love Thy Neighbor.

It feels terrifying to come face to face with someone, anyone, who does not follow that - who seeks to destroy someone based on differences. That is why hate groups are so frightening (to point out the blatantly obvious ).

Nathan, I'm so sorry that you feel threatened, emotionally, from your mother.

Ultimately, she is not responsible for your choices. You are an adult and your own person. She may feel like she is responsible for bringing you to her version of Truth. But that isn't her responsibility. Perhaps she is trying to offer you something that has comforted and helped HER, in high hopes that it will comfort and help you? We tend to press onto others the solutions that worked for US, forgetting that they have their OWN path to take. Her experience is not the same as yours. Do what you feel you must to nurture yourself emotionally.

Beyond that, I really don't feel I've any basis to comment. Just answering to remind you you're among friends here, and we love you.

(((Nate)))

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

And I feel like her church was her "literal" salvation because she was able to find strength in something outside herself.

Could my mom have become an "Andrea Yates?" Isn't that what she's doing, "killing" me spiritually & emotionally because I'm "under Satan's control?"

I believe Fundamentalism is incredibly more dangerous than we realize. Look at what it can do in Islam... convince precious young men & women to kill themselves in suicide attacks..

Dangerous? Yes. I agree with you there.

The fundamentalism that swept through my family when I was an adolescent did so for the simple reason that the family dynamic cried out for some kind of emotional stability. Nature, as it has been said, abhors a vacuum. In sum: I believe that the attraction of fundamentalism is its certitude. But mere certitude is a poor substitute for expressions of love as well and nuance and originality of thought. Fundamentalism is sorely lacking in this latter regard. It relies on compliance first and foremost. In fundamentalism, which is totalitarian in nature, you agree to have someone else do your thinking for you. This may seem reductionist, but history has much to say but totalitarianism in matters of faith as well as politics.

It takes a great deal of courage is stand up to the thinking of those around us, especially those 'voices' which tell us things which are at odds with our 'reality'. I can see how defending one's investment in fundamentalist certitude becomes the be-all and end-all. And when that happens, the results are always tragic.

[keltic63]

yes. I believe that Andrea Yates may indeed be a victim of the Fundies, and like others, I agree that it is a dangerous belief system. Daniles comments about "compliance first and foremost" ring true with me; I remember them not so fondly from my youth.

I engaged in a discussion in another forum in which the original poster made the claim that the Bible does not contradict itself. so I found 1 contradiction in the NT and posted it. There has been no response, yet the original poster has begun other "religious" threads. I'm guessing that she's waiting for an answer from her pastor or Bible Study leader. we can't have people thinking for themselves now, can we?

[nowvoyager]

And I think this compliance and the skewed world view that says that you're either righteous or damned, lends itself to complete rigidity. It seems that she was so concreted in by this rigidity that to her poor mind, this was the only way out. This is why I find fundamentalism so wicked, it denies flexibility, and the human condition is an ever-changing and flexible one. Plus, I think love and compassion and especially loving enemies, can only exist in flexibility.

[revtj]

What I will still be saying when I am an old geezer:

violent theology = violent results.

I feel sorry for Andrea Yates. The connection between mental illness (psychosis) and religious ideation is documented over & over in hundreds of thousands of cases since Anton Boisen. I see it all the time as a chaplain in psych wards.

The unfortunate thing is that medical science and religion are so completely separated in the clinical training of psychaitrists that the idea of religious intervention seems like voodoo to most doctors.

Suppose someone who did not make an artificial distinction between religious psychosis and her spiritual humanity had been able to intervene and convince her that Jesus did not want her to kill the children and that God would protect the children from Satan? These kinds of interventions happen sometimes, and it's surreal to be sure, but it leaves me wishing religion and medicene (esp. psychology & psychaitry) trusted each other and could work together in a wholistic treatment of the patient.

And then there's the abuse several of you mentioned. Amen. These people have most assuredly been spiritually abused (and often abused in ways worse than that).

What could be done to hold those who religiously abuse people accountable? Shouldn't her pastor be on trial as well?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by revtj

violent theology = violent results.

The unfortunate thing is that medical science and religion are so completely separated in the clinical training of psychaitrists that the idea of religious intervention seems like voodoo to most doctors.

Suppose someone who did not make an artificial distinction between religious psychosis and her spiritual humanity had been able to intervene and convince her that Jesus did not want her to kill the children and that God would protect the children from Satan? These kinds of interventions happen sometimes, and it's surreal to be sure, but it leaves me wishing religion and medicene (esp. psychology & psychiatry) trusted each other and could work together in a wholistic treatment of the patient.

Wow! I really like what you've outlined here Revtj re the nexus between the lack of training within the mental health field and religion. I had never thought of this. Brilliant thinking which cries out for a symposium- convention to address the matter. Is this being done in your field in any organized capactiy by anyone? Or is it every one for himself? I gather from your last sentence above the latter.

[revtj]

More is being done to address the issue among professional chaplains than among MDs. However, many med schools are starting to introduce wholistic and interdisciplinary care into their curriculums. I would say there is a gradual improvement, the fruits of which may be seen in the next generation of doctors.

I think psychaitrists and psychologists under capitalized medicene will continue to view religious ideation as a biochemical imbalance and prescribe massive doses of god-only-knows-what, which was exactly the treatment Yates had gotten. These docs prudently consider a patients' religious beliefs "off limits" and might call the chaplain but only if the patient asked for one. In her case, she had massive drugs and an extremist fundamentalist faith community--who the heck would ever think THAT was a good mix?

But I think there are more healthy, helpful & biblical ways of looking at religious ideation. I mean, was Moses not having clinical psychosis when he heard the burning bush talk to him? On the other hand it was a powerfully transformative, liberating event. 2 sides of the same experience.

Validation Therapy has a lot to offer. In this method, you do not challenge the person's religious assumptions nor their religious experiences but reframe them so that they are channeled toward no physical harm and are a support to the healing process. It works, I swear! It just doesn't happen enough.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by revtj

Validation Therapy has a lot to offer. In this method, you do not challenge the person's religious assumptions nor their religious experiences but reframe them so that they are channeled toward no physical harm and are a support to the healing process. It works, I swear! It just doesn't happen enough.

Very interesting stuff! Re the healing process: I have read of interventions with those who went a little 'too far' with energetic/yogic practices. What's interesting to me is that this kind of religious ideation (the term itself says a great deal!) isn't limited to the fundies, but can happen to those of any religious stripe.

This brings to mind (ha!) the recent studies in brain studies (FMRI) that have pin-pointed an area of the brain which, when simulated, elicits numinous-religious experiences. One would hope, I suppose, that further studies might be able to uncover what in fact is 'actual' and what is not? At that point, doctors might become a bit more interested in the matter.

[pnggrad79]

First of all, Nate-I identify with you on so many levels. I hope that at some point you, and I think to some degree you already have, learn to look at your mom objectively with this. She is only going off of the tapes in her head that preached judgmentalism and called it love. Just like my parents, do. You, like me, had to reject this "tape" because we were gay, and we figured God couldn't hate what he created and we found a way to still be a Christian and be gay at the same time.

About Andrea Yates-OMG!!! Some lunatic preacher and his vagabond family got ahold of this already messed up young woman and spewed their fundamentalism into her and her husband.

Michael Woroniecki: Michael Woroniecki was a traveling minister from whom Rusty purchased their bus and whose religious views had influenced both Rusty and Andrea. Rusty only agreed with some of Woroniecki's ideas but Andrea embraced the extremist sermons. He preached, "the role of women is derived from the sin of Eve and that bad mothers who are going to hell create bad children who will go to hell." Andrea was so totally captivated by Woroniecki that Rusty and Andrea's family grew concerned

Make no mistake, Andrea was already messed up when they got ahold of her and I agree with Nate-they prey on weak, vulnerable people. She had no business having those children and her stupid husband had no business insisting on it. He knew very well that she wasn't right. His priority was himself and his masculine pride, not his wife.

Fundamentalism is a tool of satan himself that seeks to make man adhere to a religion and not a relationship. Jesus railed against it in his day, because he knew how destructive to the law of love and grace it was. Because fundamentalism has no grace, it has no freedom and keeps people locked in the chains of doing something to achieve grace when Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says "For by grace you have been saved and it is nothing you have done, it is a GIFT of GOD; not of works, that you could boast of." We have grace because God gave it to us and we can't possibly good enough to earn it or achieve it; our job is to grasp it and live in it.

I feel for Andrea Yates and for what fundamentalism has done to her. If she had gotten the help she needs and stopped reproducing, she might have been able to live a reasonably normal life.

[NathanATX]

I just posted this on my blog...
*********************************

Evidence that fundamentalism caused the deaths of Yates' children

In a recent blog posting, I questioned whether Andrea Yates was a victim of fundamentalism. Pnggrad79 on the www.soulforce.org/forums posted this response:

Michael Woroniecki: Michael Woroniecki was a traveling minister from whom Rusty purchased their bus and whose religious views had influenced both Rusty and Andrea. Rusty only agreed with some of Woroniecki's ideas but Andrea embraced the extremist sermons. He preached, "the role of women is derived from the sin of Eve and that bad mothers who are going to hell create bad children who will go to hell." Andrea was so totally captivated by Woroniecki that Rusty and Andrea's family grew concerned.

And I located more information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Peter_Woroniecki

Andrea Yates case
On June 20, 2001, one of Woroniecki's disciples for the previous nine years, Andrea Pia Yates killed all five of her children. Eventually, Woroniecki surfaced in the media when evidence was admitted in court implicating Woroniecki's teaching in a newsletter called The Perilous Times as having negatively scripted Andrea's psychotic mind. Andrea had delusively believed that she was a horrible mother who couldn't give Jesus to her children and that because of her, her children would become spiritually damaged and end up in hell.

Woroniecki became a national media spectacle in March of 2002 for his alleged negative influence on Andrea Pia Yates.[3][4][5][6][7][8]

Letters from the Woroniecki family were found by investigative author Suzy Spencer that berated Andrea over her unrighteous standing before God. His 1995 video taught that it was better for parents to commit suicide than cause their offspring to stumble and go to hell. Only two months after receiving the harsh letters from the Woroniecki's, Andrea was hospitalized twice for two separate suicide attempts.

Woroniecki's wife said on a March 27, 2002 interview of ABC's Good Morning America that the greatest problem they have with disciples is that "they try to emulate their lifestyle without coming to Jesus," suggesting that their disciples mistakenly choose to place themselves under the "yoke" of the Law of God, consequently crushing themselves under its burdensome weight.

Woroniecki denies that he had anything at all to do with negatively influencing Yates. He claims in a letter postmarked October 24, 2002 to author Suzanne O'Malley that Andrea's motive for killing her children was based on a deep and intense hatred for her husband that he learned from prior ministerial conversations with her and that she and the media conspired to use "religious rhetoric" to cover up her true motive. Only five months earlier, Woroniecki told the Leslie Primeau Show at CHED AM 630 in Edmonton, Canada that he had "no idea" what Andrea's true motive was, according to a recorded excerpt of the broadcast at an ex-follower's website.


Post-Yates career
Woroniecki and his family remain active with their message.[9][10][11][12][13][14]

"You are on the wrong path, and there is nothing you can do about it... God's message is not unconditional love. It's unrelenting anguish and hopelessness!" Message preached by two daughters of Mr. Woroniecki as reported by the editorial staff of The Collegian--student newspaper of the University of Richmond, Sep. 29, 2005.

Where is the accountability for ministers who cause emotional & mental harm? This man should go to prison.

If you want to be *really* creeped out, watch this video with him telling parents to kill themselves if they don't raise their children "right." http://64.59.83.120/movie/devilmask2.wmv

[pnggrad79]

Hmm, I wonder if Fred Phelps is condemning of Mike Woroniecki? It would be interesting to see.


I agree these people are dangerous, dangerous people and need to be stopped.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Hmm, I wonder if Fred Phelps is condemning of Mike Woroniecki? It would be interesting to see.

I agree these people are dangerous, dangerous people and need to be stopped.

Protecting freedom of speech is very important, but there needs to some recognition and criminalization of verbal & emotional abuse that causes tangible or measurable harm. Psychiatrists have clear ethical standards. Religious ministers should too.

Not that this guy is anything other than a minister of hell...

[revtj]

Nathan I am totally with you. Society should establish higher standards for ministers if their denominations won't. It is ridiculous that he can have the same credentials as a nearly sane person such as myself.

Seriously, I do believe with certianty this minister is culpable in Andrea Yates' crime.

Why should we see it any differently than Charles Manson? He programmed her in her spiritual/human vulnerability, and she acted.

I think mental treatment for her is correct for the situation.

Life in prison would keep him from screwing up another person's head and driving them to violence.

Can I get an AMEN?

[SolApollo]

Yes and no. Fundamentalism definitely messes w/ the mind. I know from experience, but I am not a violent person.

I think it influenced her decision, but the decision was hers, yet she is legally insane (correct?). Perhaps, it would be better to say, that fundamentalism combined with serious mental illness results in religious-motivated crime? Crimes based on discrimination have a simple motive - hate.

I recently wrote an article regarding the struggle between fundamentalist and progressive Christianity. I'll post on my myspace and/or here soon as it will be published in my church newsletter in Sept.

[BruceChris]

I would agree that she seems to have been placed in an untenable position, one that would drive many crazy.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2821

P&L, Chris

[pnggrad79]

Andrea Yates was clearly messed up before Woroniecki got ahold of her and her equally messed up husband. Fundamentalism is not only harmful to those of us who have no issues (are they any?) but it is harmful to those looking for a sense of stability and peace, when the only peace to be found is in the freedom of grace that Christ died to give us. Fundamentalism pays lip service to grace, does not practice it, nor does it live it. It says you have to live by our rules or you are doomed to hell. And they frighten vulnerable people into compliance with an overemphasis on hell.

I don't know if anyone has ever seen or heard of a traveling play called "Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames", but my former church put one of these plays on and I was so disturbed by not only the biblical inaccuracy of it, but they way it drove hundreds of people to "salvation" by scaring the hell out of them. Did we ever see these people again? Did we even care if we saw them again? I was so upset by this, I wrote to The Baptist Standard and protested this production.

It is this overemphasis on hell and not enough of the grace of Jesus Christ that eventually made me run from the Baptist church. Andrea Yates was caught up in a frenzy of fundamentalists and latched onto it because she needed something to hold onto. My heavens, she was forced to live in bus!!!She is a sick woman and I hope that somehow the grace and peace of Jesus truly reaches her. She may even learn to forgive herself.

[NathanATX]

I believe fundamentalism is killing my mom.

The last time I heard from my mom she was "dis-inviting" me from the Memorial Day family reunion. Last night, I get an email from her telling me that she believes the rapture is happening in the summer of 2007. She used a lot of fatalistic language, said that God told her she wouldn't live past 50 (she's 48), and of course all of that hysteria was wrapped up in a "get right or get left" message.

She also sent this message to my two younger brothers, Jared 20 & Sam 22. I told her that if this was bothering me, who knows how getting emails like this is affecting them.

It's almost like I can handle her abusive words, but when she starts talking about how God has told her when she would die... I get a little freaked out. I *think* that what I'm feeling are some of the emotions of someone who has literally lost both of their parents. It's like a really empty sense of being alone in the world... a sense of grief...

Please pray for me. Pray for my mom. I don't know what to do.

Also, there are several young people in the ministry I lead who are going through similar things... Your prayers are appreciated.

If you have any advice, I'll also send that on to the young adult ministry.

Peace,
Nate

[revtj]

Nathan,

I am sorry about this situation with your mom. I know it must be hurting you in many ways.

It is so hard to navigate between someone's religious beliefs that you don't agree with and still love them in a way that makes you both feel connected and cherished. I wish I had some advice...I know that it would be a lot easier if she was a patient, a neighbor or a casual contact. But it's your mom and it is hard to brush the toxic religion off and focus on other things in your relationship where you both agree and are supportive. My heart goes out to you & you and your mom are in my prayers.

revtj