Redemption or Bust- Sunday Times Reading

[Daniel]

Last Sunday, Retj posted a message about what he did instead of going to church that morning. Well. Breakfast is over and I'm reading the paper and my spouse is soon going to church to play the organ. Here's what's happening in my backyard. Thought you might find it interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/ny...=1&oref=slogin

Whatever one thinks about evangelism (and I'm curious to know what you all think about this issue), the last few paragraphs are very much in line with how I think this activity can be engaged to its best end. While at Evangel College, I was always very uncomfortable with an Evangelism that seemed born out of judgement and the need to accumulate souls like game pieces.

Originally Posted by NYtimes/Redemption or Bust-August 13-06

But some missionaries end up listening rather than preaching, more intent on developing their own faith than on telling others how to be saved.

One example of this breed is Courtney Aukerman, a recent graduate of the University of Delaware, who comes from what she described as “a long line of church people.” Ms. Aukerman is in town this summer to lead mission trips for the Center for Student Missions, the California-based group, and in preparation, she rode every line of the subway, took a few buses and walked around neighborhoods in all the boroughs. She and her colleagues have listened to a trumpet player while sheltering themselves from a storm in Central Park, and eaten Senegalese food in Harlem. They have shared meals with the homeless, collected garbage from the street and asked questions like “What is your favorite thing about living in the Bronx?”

Somewhere along the line, she began to feel not only a powerful tug toward full-time mission work, but also the lure of the city as a place to call home. “You can’t tame it,” she said, sipping fruit juice at an outdoor cafe on Avenue A as a vibrant pageant of street life passed by. “There’s some sort of soul in the city that is nowhere else. Like when you sit on the train, and you can hear the music of the tracks.”

[awediot]

Pretty much New Yorkian derision of country bumpkins that could never know anything that the big city slickers hadn't chewed up and spit out long ago. No example was given as to the 'missionaries' actually reaching anyone and the article ends on your quote, describing a young girl seemingly being seduced by the romanticized grittiness of the untamable soul of the city. Headline should have read: "Jaded New Yorkers Evangelize Another"

I was always very uncomfortable with an Evangelism that seemed born out of judgement and the need to accumulate souls like game pieces.

What about evangelism born of genuine concern for the Souls of fellow human beings? Do they look the same to you?

(gonna put that air tank to use)

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

No example was given as to the 'missionaries' actually reaching anyone and the article ends on your quote..

Gee Dean- Easy to offend perhaps? The point of the article, as I saw it, was that the methods of most evangelists really don't reach anyone in a way that really matters except for those who actually help people in thier lives rather than come here to get notches in their belt. I guess I am not among those who relish being told what I should or should not believe and have a wariness of those who seem intent of doing so. I like the quote for the simple reason that I value listening to people rather than the condescention that all too often passes for compassion and I felt the passage reflected that.

What about evangelism born of genuine concern for the Souls of fellow human beings? Do they look the same to you?

Hmmm. I guess I have a problem with Evangelism in general after having seen it up close a school for four plus years. I don't see why I should be concerned that other people are 'going to hell' when they have more pressing and immediate concerns like food and education and a place to live etc. I have never understood the need and desire for those who seek to convert every one in their path. It seems like a 'safety in numbers' proposition. Gotta get more numbers on the team!

It would be like like me trying to make every student I have an opera singer. Just ain't gonna happen. There is far too much diversity in the world. And I like that. it may sound silly, but I don't see why we each can't sing our own tunes. Why do we all have to sing the same one? Not enough harmony in that.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Gee Dean- Easy to offend perhaps? The point of the article, as I saw it, was that the methods of most evangelists really don't reach anyone in a way that really matters except for those who actually help people in thier lives rather than come here to get notches in their belt. I guess I am not among those who relish being told what I should or should not believe and have a wariness of those who seem intent of doing so. I like the quote for the simple reason that I value listening to people rather than the condescention that all too often passes for compassion and I felt the passage reflected that.

Not particularly easy to offend, no. Differently perhaps... While I can agree that that the apparent trend to "save" New York, while certainly in need of it, is a bit naive, the article had a degrading "oh, ain't they cute little puritans" tone that reflects a bigotry all its own. As does terms like 'notches in their belt.' It parallels the accusations the we 'recruit', and makes the same assumptions of unknown intentions that I defend myself against. I'll treat it here as I have learned to do else where.

Hmmm. I guess I have a problem with Evangelism in general after having seen it up close a school for four plus years. I don't see why I should be concerned that other people are 'going to hell' when they have more pressing and immediate concerns like food and education and a place to live etc. I have never understood the need and desire for those who seek to convert every one in their path. It seems like a 'safety in numbers' proposition. Gotta get more numbers on the team!

Perhaps your experience has left a bad taste in your mouth. If you believed that Souls were at risk of an eternal separation from the Divine, then you would see them and their actions quite differently... Vanillazation it not exactly the goal... and the Mormon Tabernacle has no problem with harmony. (though they could use some satanic hand claps or something)

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by awediot

Perhaps your experience has left a bad taste in your mouth. If you believed that Souls were at risk of an eternal separation from the Divine, then you would see them and their actions quite differently... Vanillazation it not exactly the goal... and the Mormon Tabernacle has no problem with harmony. (though they could use some satanic hand claps or something)

I know that some people do believe souls are "at risk of an eternal separation from the divine." Knowing what they believe and why helps me respond to them with compassion instead of anger. (Anger at the perceived judgement and condemnation.) All too often those who feel they have such a clarion call to "evangelization" employ any tactic available to gain the converts they seek. They use guilt, fear, and shame as if they were life saving medicine. They use manipulation, repetitive mantras, and the idea of being included in an exclusive family or group of people to win converts. I'm not saying all Christians who believe in a literal Hell do this... but I've seen this behavior often in my life.

The thing is... Jesus didn't say, "go into all the world, have everyone pray the sinners prayer, convert to your brand of religion, worship in your church, be baptized by immersion, make them speak in tounges, etc, in order to save their souls from damnation."

He said, "go and make disciples." Go "feed the hungry, visit the lonely, heal the sick."

My personal viewpoint is that the world is not in need of salvation from the punishment of an angry God. The world IS in need of compassion, mercy, healing, and restoration. People need to know the depths of God's love for them... whether they are Christian or Muslim... Jewish or atheist... Buddhist or Baptist... And not because their refusal of that love will doom them to hell, but because I believe their awareness of that love will bring hope, healing and transformation into their lives.

They will know God's love when people of faith begin demonstrating love... without an agenda and without a quota.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by awediot

Not particularly easy to offend, no. Differently perhaps... While I can agree that that the apparent trend to "save" New York, while certainly in need of it, is a bit naive, the article had a degrading "oh, ain't they cute little puritans" tone that reflects a bigotry all its own. As does terms like 'notches in their belt.' It parallels the accusations the we 'recruit', and makes the same assumptions of unknown intentions that I defend myself against. I'll treat it here as I have learned to do else where.

We read the same article and read different things into it perhaps. I did not think it degrading, merely descriptive. There are several organization and approaches therein, from the effort of someone like a Mr. Skelly who tells people they are going to hell if they don't accept Christ to another group which works with Muslim immigrants, teaching them to navigate the English language. Then there is the experience of a lower East Sider who puts it thus: " “I hate coming out of my house and walking to my park and being proselytized to by these 17-year-olds from North Carolina. It drives me crazy.” A range of experience certainly.

The perspective that bothers you must be what appears at the end of the article:

Originally Posted by NYTimes

Some groups of missionaries return home with a roster of New Yorkers whom they view as potential converts. The Southern Baptists, who this year have imported about 900 out-of-towners to help paint school classrooms and run sports camps, say that 238 New Yorkers signed up as followers of Christ through the camps last summer.

At the same time, there is growing debate within the evangelical community about the pitfalls of short-term missions and how to avoid them. With so many young people involved in an array of unfamiliar situations, leaders of some organizations worry that the trips can devolve into self-serving and insensitive “drive-by” missions.

“I feel like so many of the paternalistic issues that have existed in missions throughout the centuries continue to predominate,” said the Rev. Dr. David Livermore, director of the Global Learning Center, a research and training institute at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary in Michigan.

There may also be an undue emphasis on tallying conversions of questionable depth. “I’ve heard people in churches say, ‘Even if people don’t want to listen to you, get out there,’ ” said the Rev. Dr. Jim Lo, dean of campus ministries at Bethel University in St. Paul, Minn. “To me, that’s the wrong approach.”

The concern about these missions is made by Christians themselves- and elsewhere at that--not New Yorkers themselves. My own concern with the matter arises from the observation that Christians who evangelize are not dissimilar to those gay people who think that if they are 'nice' enough others will 'accept' them (Mr. Skelly excepted of course- hell fire doesn't come off as very nice does it?). This kind of motivation might best be descibed as a 'quid pro quo'. In other words, doing somethiing to get something.

Perhaps your experience has left a bad taste in your mouth. If you believed that Souls were at risk of an eternal separation from the Divine, then you would see them and their actions quite differently...

Perhaps. The difference is that I do not see anyone's soul as being at risk of eternal damnation. To arrive at that conclusion, I would have to have set myself up as an authority, as my own God, and as one view states in the piece, this is a very paternalistic viewpoint.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

My personal viewpoint is that the world is not in need of salvation from the punishment of an angry God. The world IS in need of compassion, mercy, healing, and restoration. People need to know the depths of God's love for them... whether they are Christian or Muslim... Jewish or atheist... Buddhist or Baptist... And not because their refusal of that love will doom them to hell, but because I believe their awareness of that love will bring hope, healing and transformation into their lives.

They will know God's love when people of faith begin demonstrating love... without an agenda and without a quota.

Beautifully said Nate. I agree with you whole-heartedly. Your words convince me that getting that 'piece of paper' will only confirm what you already are.

Note: There are quirks to evangelism here. Every year, I get stopped in the street by the a conservative Jewish sect that has a strong presence in Eastern New York. They have buses parked on the 'Liberal' Upper West Side which are surrounded by young guys dressed in black with wide brimmed hats. They ask you: "Are you Jewish" Sometimes I want to say yes just to see what happens next.

[tdogg]

You got it Nate - Jesus said to go out and preach the gospel to all nations. Gospel = good news. All nations = people everywhere. Jesus taught that actions speak louder than words.

Tdogg's interpretation = go yea out into your world (whatever parameters it may hold) and spread some love - feed the hungry, clothe the naked, hold the children, elderly and needy, be a companion, give a hug, shake a hand, give someone a compliment, and so on. This could be in a 3rd world country, New York or your own front yard.

Well, the above would apply IF the interpretation of Jesus words are indeed accurate and I believe that while much of the Bible may not be translated and interpreted according to original intention or to what God actually did or how God actually felt - it seems reasonable to believe that Jesus words in the Bible are probably fairly accurate. The history of his word and actions speak of love not condemnation, of love and not hate.

I think everyone would benefit by learning about different religions. And while I may believe what works for me, who am I to attempt to tell someone else what works for them. If there is any converting to be done, it should be done through my deeds, my compassion, my love, my actions. Not by telling someone they better accept Jesus or prepare for an eternity in a place full of unimaginable horror.

[BruceChris]

Just maybe it is about how you treat other people. -- Krista Tippit, on "Speaking of Faith", Minnesota Public Radio, some time back. Tdogg, Daniel and Nathan, I like you guys. P&L, BC