Differences between Southern Baptist and United Church of Christ

[pnggrad79]

Being from a Southern Baptist background, and deeply steeped in its beliefs and traditions (although learning how wrong they are on things like homosexuality) what is the basic difference between Southern Baptist and UCC? Could someone please explain?

[SolInvictus]

UCC:
Liberal, theologically
Bible as partial or all metaphor
"May they all be one" John 17:21 - the "united" principle of the UCC viewing Christ as spiritual head of the Church & all religions & Christian denominations as being different expressions that worship God & to encourage interfaith relations so that "they may all be one."
Liturgy used; indiv. churches as autonymous, but generally agree w/ the general governing body, the General Synod.
Encourage individual thought & dialogue among members concerning social issues & Bible studies: thinking for one self, essentially.
Sacraments honored, esp. Eucharist (open for all), and baptism (not mandatory), etc.
Equality of gender in "priesthood" regardless of male, female, transgendered, or sexual orientation; equal value among all people
Seperation of church/state; Pro-life
NRSV Bible generally used rather than KJV.
Pastor/minister equal with members of congregation & with same privaledges.
For more info: www.ucc.org/index1
www.stillspeaking.com

SBC:
Conservative, theologically
Bible as literal w/ preference towards KJV or NIV editions.
Baptism necessary for salvation.
Evangelism encouraged.
"Traditional values"
Seperation of church/state
"Cooperation" among the denominations
Christianity as sole religion necessary for salvation
Pro-life
Men solely for "priesthood" but women considered "equal value" to men
Individual church autonomy within confines of SBC doctrine
For more info: http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/psautonomy.asp

Hope this helps & some represent my opinion; visit websites cited for official statements of belief.

Blessings,
Sol Invictus

P.S. Yes, research is a hobby & career choice for me in grad studies :-)

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

UCC:
Bible as partial or all metaphor

I grew up SBC and now just refer to myself as Baptist, but feel a real connection with the UCC. I've only been involved with one UCC congregation, and they were fabulous.

When talking about the UCC and the Bible, I'm thinking the inclusion of "...or all metaphor" is off base. Wouldn't it be better to say that the UCC encourages readers of the Bible to ask the following question when studying each story: "Is this to be taken literally or is this intended to be understood as a metaphor for a greater truth?"

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

SBC:
Bible as literal w/ preference towards KJV or NIV editions.

In the past few years, the New American Standard Bible (NASB) has become the translation of choice among the fundamentalists. And there was huge resistance to the Today's New International Version (TNIV).

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

SBC:
Baptism necessary for salvation.

There may be a minority of Southern Baptists that believe this, but every Southern Baptist I know would say that baptism, though a commandment, is not necessary for salvation. Southern Baptists believe the one's salvation occurs the instant a confession of faith is made.

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

SBC:
Seperation of church/state

Historic Baptist principles champion the idea of seperation of church and state. In fact, Baptists are credited with getting the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution. However the new Southern Baptist Convention that emerged after the fundamentalist takeover in 1979 is another story.

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

SBC:
"Cooperation" among the denominations

You know, growing up SBC, I had no idea what the word "ecumenical" meant. The word was never used. If it had, it probably would've been with the example of us playing the Methodists in church league softball.

The SBC (at least the new Southern Baptist convention) is not an ecumenical denomination. They don't even cooperate with other Baptists like the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, the American Baptist Church, or the National Baptist Convention. And just recently they ended their 100 year relationship with the Baptist World Alliance. Very sad -- and also telling of where the SBC is headed if the good people in the pews don't do something quick and hold their leaders accountable. Unfortunately, most of the good people remain silent as Southern Baptists of ill-will loudly praise God with their lips yet grieve the Spirit with their embracing of injustice, oppression, and untruth.

[Jennifer5]

Thanks, this helps me clear a lot of things up... and you said a lot about Southern Baptist that I didn't know.

[pnggrad79]

Growing up in a Southern Baptist church all my life, I never once heard that baptism was conditional to salvation. It was explained to me that since the thief on the cross never had the chance to be baptized and yet was saved by his admission on the cross of Jesus as Lord, that baptism was NOT necessary for salvation, only a visible declaration before man that you were not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. I did once hear that in the Church of Christ denomination that baptism was necessary. This lady asked me, "Have you been baptized for the remission of sin?" and I said that Jesus' death on the cross was the remission for my sin. Nowhere in Scripture does it allude to the fact that baptism was a requirement for salvation. At least not to my knowledge. I would welcome anyone to show me where it does say that, however. I am always open to be enlightened.

[SolInvictus]

Thanks Jamie for the corrections :-)

I should have clairified what the opinions were from me - living in a deeply conservative town, S. Baptists strongly encourage baptism as necessary here (but they may be First Baptists? All of the denom.'s can be confusing lol), and usually believe they are the sole source of salvation.

Yeah, like your response regarding the UCC better in regards to metaphorical interpretation. Its a great denom. - glad you feel connected to them too. They are great in urging social reform/change & other issues.

[SolInvictus]

Just to clarify, the United Church of Christ & Church of Christ are different entities/denominations & not affiliated with one another. This is a common misconception. Baptism isn't mandatory in the UCC.

Likewise, there are also variations among the following:
1. Christian Union
2. Church of Christ in Christian Union
3. Church of Christ

Surprisingly, the above mentioned denominations are quite different from one another. For example, Christian Union believes that salvation is not a permenant state & if one "backslides," then they must seek to be "saved" again. The CCCU (#2) however believes in permenant salvation ("once saved; always saved). Baptism is strongly encouraged, but not necessary to become a full member.

Yes, the various denominations are confusing at times as with the diverse Baptist variations.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Growing up in a Southern Baptist church all my life, I never once heard that baptism was conditional to salvation. It was explained to me that since the thief on the cross never had the chance to be baptized and yet was saved by his admission on the cross of Jesus as Lord, that baptism was NOT necessary for salvation, only a visible declaration before man that you were not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. I did once hear that in the Church of Christ denomination that baptism was necessary. This lady asked me, "Have you been baptized for the remission of sin?" and I said that Jesus' death on the cross was the remission for my sin. Nowhere in Scripture does it allude to the fact that baptism was a requirement for salvation. At least not to my knowledge. I would welcome anyone to show me where it does say that, however. I am always open to be enlightened.

[Catt of the Garage]

Pnngrad - you're right, I think - as far as I am aware, nowhere in the Bible is there a statement that baptism is necessary to salvation. It is a public declaration of your committment to Jesus and a matter of obedience, that's all. I know this is irrelevant as Baptist churches across the world vary hugely, but for interest's sake, Baptist churches in Scotland generally consider baptism a prerequisite for full membership (i.e. to allow you to vote at church meetings, propose motions, be a deacon etc.) but do not consider it a prerequisite for salvation. You can be a happy saved adherent, as I was for many years. Of course the individual churches are not required to abide by the decisions of the Baptist Union so there may be some churches out there that don't require baptism for membership, either.

[revtj]

As a UCC minister ordained in a congregation that was (formerly Southern, now Alliance) Baptist and UCC, I'd say you all got it right.

Baptists & UCC (as well as UUs) share congregational polity which means that each local congregation is autonomous. This can be messy and make room for flakes but we think it's better than having a bishop or prebytery or synod or any other individual or group tell us what we must do/believe.

The great take-over of the Southern Baptists which ya'll have mentioned was unfortunately a major exploitation of congregational polity's loose grip on denominationalism. It has created a tyranny of the minority of fundamentalist leaders and scared open-minded leaders away (if they weren't thrown out!)

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by revtj

As a UCC minister ordained in a congregation that was (formerly Southern, now Alliance) Baptist and UCC...

Wow, I know individuals who were Southern Baptist who became UCC (I'm thinking about it myself), but not entire congregations! That's great. Which one?

Wait... I remember two great congregations in Georgia that were profiled in the book Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth. Going to Google now.... Yep! Just what I thought, you must go to Virginia-Highland Church.

A few years ago I attended a Baptist Pastor's Conference at Georgetown College here in Kentucky. (I had got invited by one of the college staff who had attended a discussion on the church and homosexuality when Mel White came to Lexington.)

Rev. Tim Shirley of Virginia-Highland was at the Pastor's Conference and when they introduced him I clapped loudly. Then everyone else started clapping. Later I went up to Rev. Shirley with a copy of Rightly Dividing in tow and thanked him and his wife for the stand they and their church took for GLBT people.

Originally Posted by revtj

The great take-over of the Southern Baptists which ya'll have mentioned was unfortunately a major exploitation of congregational polity's loose grip on denominationalism. It has created a tyranny of the minority of fundamentalist leaders and scared open-minded leaders away (if they weren't thrown out!)

A great (and very disturbing) documentary on the SBC fundamentalist takeover is Battle for the Minds. I highly recommend anyone who is connected to the SBC to watch it.

http://www.newday.com/films/Battle_for_the_Minds.html

[cogito_ergo_sum]

i grew up in the uniting church (i dont know if thats the same as te ucc) but it doesnt take everything literally. its like, some things really did happen like that, but other things are stories that Jesus told or metaphors. its like we use figurative landuage today. Baptists are really far too conservative and stuff for me. and i though the catholics were bad

[Fireman]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Being from a Southern Baptist background, and deeply steeped in its beliefs and traditions (although learning how wrong they are on things like homosexuality) what is the basic difference between Southern Baptist and UCC? Could someone please explain?

The biggest difference between the two is that Baptist believe in salvation by grace through faith plus nothing else, and the Church of Christ believe that one must be baptized in order to merit salvation. The Church of Christ use Acts 2:38.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptizied every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Lets look at that. What is to be baptized "for the remission of sins". In english it is read and assumed that it means to be baptized in order to receive the remission of sins. The Greek word translated "for" is actually different. The english equilivant is " fined for speeding".

So be baptized because of the remission of sins that happens when you become a believer. Make it a public statement not a requirement.....

Ephesians 2:8-9
For grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not for works, lest andy man should boast. (king james version 1769).

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(the king james version 1769).

Acts 16:30-31
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must i do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(the king james version 1769)

And then there is also the man on the cross.

This is what i read and believe. But one day i will be face down in front of my Lord and he will not send me to hell for what i didnt do, but call me HIS own for what i did. And that is believe that HE is the one and true savior. That HE and HE alone died for my sins. And that my salvation lies in HIM.

[Neon Genesis]

Originally Posted by Fireman

The biggest difference between the two is that Baptist believe in salvation by grace through faith plus nothing else, and the Church of Christ believe that one must be baptized in order to merit salvation. The Church of Christ use Acts 2:38.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptizied every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

.

As a former member of the Church Of Christ, I can speak from experience that I did believe this and I was baptized when I was 15. They also based this belief in baptism for the remission of sins on Mark 16:16

The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

But then that last half of Mark 16 doesn't appear in any of the earliest manuscripts of Mark's gospel. They point out examples in the NT where people who converted to Christianity were baptized, like the example of the eunuch in Acts. But then Paul also writes in 1 Corinthians:

13Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God* that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16(I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize but to proclaim the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its power.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by Fireman

The biggest difference between the two is that Baptist believe in salvation by grace through faith plus nothing else, and the Church of Christ believe that one must be baptized in order to merit salvation. The Church of Christ use Acts 2:38.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptizied every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Lets look at that. What is to be baptized "for the remission of sins". In english it is read and assumed that it means to be baptized in order to receive the remission of sins. The Greek word translated "for" is actually different. The english equilivant is " fined for speeding".

So be baptized because of the remission of sins that happens when you become a believer. Make it a public statement not a requirement.....

Ephesians 2:8-9
For grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not for works, lest andy man should boast. (king james version 1769).

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(the king james version 1769).

Acts 16:30-31
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must i do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(the king james version 1769)

And then there is also the man on the cross.

This is what i read and believe. But one day i will be face down in front of my Lord and he will not send me to hell for what i didnt do, but call me HIS own for what i did. And that is believe that HE is the one and true savior. That HE and HE alone died for my sins. And that my salvation lies in HIM.

Just repeating what was pointed out a few posts (and years) back, this question was about the United Church of Christ, not the Church of Christ. The two are unaffiliated. And your interpretation of the CoC position (not sure where you got it) is a bit...unmerciful and lopsided.

[Stigandi]

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

UCC:
Liberal, theologically
Bible as partial or all metaphor
"May they all be one" John 17:21 - the "united" principle of the UCC viewing Christ as spiritual head of the Church & all religions & Christian denominations as being different expressions that worship God & to encourage interfaith relations so that "they may all be one."
Liturgy used; indiv. churches as autonymous, but generally agree w/ the general governing body, the General Synod.
Encourage individual thought & dialogue among members concerning social issues & Bible studies: thinking for one self, essentially.
Sacraments honored, esp. Eucharist (open for all), and baptism (not mandatory), etc.
Equality of gender in "priesthood" regardless of male, female, transgendered, or sexual orientation; equal value among all people
Seperation of church/state; Pro-life
NRSV Bible generally used rather than KJV.
Pastor/minister equal with members of congregation & with same privaledges.
For more info: www.ucc.org/index1
www.stillspeaking.com

SBC:
Conservative, theologically
Bible as literal w/ preference towards KJV or NIV editions.
Baptism necessary for salvation.
Evangelism encouraged.
"Traditional values"
Seperation of church/state
"Cooperation" among the denominations
Christianity as sole religion necessary for salvation
Pro-life
Men solely for "priesthood" but women considered "equal value" to men
Individual church autonomy within confines of SBC doctrine
For more info: http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/psautonomy.asp

Hope this helps & some represent my opinion; visit websites cited for official statements of belief.

Blessings,
Sol Invictus

P.S. Yes, research is a hobby & career choice for me in grad studies :-)

holy crap that is a hobby?

[Rick336]

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

SBC

Baptism necessary for salvation.

So according to Southern Baptists, the billions of people in the world who have not been dunked under water and held there for a couple of seconds while the preacher recites some words over them will spend eternity in a fiery torture chamber. And this includes all the unfortunate folks in other countries and cultures that have never even heard of baptism.

So billions of innocent people will be tortured forever.

And they're okay with this?


Rick

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by Rick336

So according to Southern Baptists, the billions of people in the world who have not been dunked under water and held there for a couple of seconds while the preacher recites some words over them will spend eternity in a fiery torture chamber. And this includes all the unfortunate folks in other countries and cultures that have never even heard of baptism.

So billions of innocent people will be tortured forever.

And they're okay with this?


Rick

They're ok with a lot of things that from the outside look appalling. The whole reason there are Southern Baptists is because of the Civil War, and the issue of slavery. Southern Baptists split from the American Baptists because they wanted and believed slavery was ordained by God. I think religion basically is a mask a lot of people wear to make themselves comfortable with a God who is at best a paradox.

[peoplegottabefree]

As a former Southern Baptist Pastor...I must agree with you... for me...former is the word

[Dioriadesia]

i have had both, and i now have a cz p-01, i really liked my beretta, but the cz is a more accurate weapon, I could get the job done with the beretta but it never impressed me with its accuracy. That is the only negative i can say about that gun. I have had people tell me that their berettas were very accurate. Mine did not seem to be.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Dioriadesia

i have had both, and i now have a cz p-01, i really liked my beretta, but the cz is a more accurate weapon, I could get the job done with the beretta but it never impressed me with its accuracy. That is the only negative i can say about that gun. I have had people tell me that their berettas were very accurate. Mine did not seem to be.

for some reason ... I'm not laughing.