The petition is up and running

[Joe Brummer]

well Zerie, You should check out www.exgaywatch.com as a good start.

[Joe Brummer]

Here is some stuff to look at that I find motivating for me to want to do something about this issue. Mostly I feel these groups are at the heart of the hate that spreads against gays and lesbians...colectively they fight us on billboards, radio, tv ads, talkshows..etc....it is the fuel of the fires. Hate crimes are like small fires, I always say. We can't try to prevent them, put them out when they start, we can even try to tend to the vicitms of the fires after they happen, but when are we going to address the elephant in the living room and stop the cause of the fires.....look at these few sites and see what I am talking about.

http://www.afsc-fan.org/dangers.htm

http://www.anythingbutstraight.com/l...periences.html

http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/hea...g8_ex-gays.htm

[SolInvictus]

Hey Zerbie, it was tough what I went through, but I am stronger now despite of it - God was with all the way :-)

Now, I just want to help other LGBT to see that they can love themselves and others w/out fear and hate.

Hate is a disease that needs to be cured with love.

[Shep]

Hi Joe & Zerbie
As I was reading through your dialogue with each other about the SB petition, a poem came to mind that I remember from grade school many years ago. I know you've heard it any maybe even had to memorize it yourselves in school. I thought it might be good to read it again and keep it in mind for situations like this.

http://sofinesjoyfulmoments.com/quotes/couldnt.htm

[Joe Brummer]

That is a great poem. I think I will print that and hang it near my desk for the next time an anti-gay person tries to knock me down.

[Joe Brummer]

WARNING: The following site may cause high blood pressure and upset stomaches. Speaking of the ex-gay movement and some of their really hateful stuff....I discovered this guy over the weekend. He makes the other ex-gay groups look like gay activists. Tell me what you think and what could be done about this, really what could be done about any of this.

http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/commentary.html

[Jamie McDaniel]

I think ex-gay ministries definitely need to be monitored and that we need to put some real thought into the language we use when responding to them or when doing a media interview alongside ex-gays. Those who promote ex-gay ministries have developed some arguments that, on the surface at least, sound clever.

In many areas of debate (not just GLBT equality) I am continually amazed that certain arguments and soundbites can succeed as highly persuasive rhetoric and yet, at the same time, be either a logical fallacy or a minor truth being substituted for a much larger truth.

Anyhow, trying to view the debate from someone who isn't an ally, but who is wrestling with their understanding of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals, here is some language from Joe's petition that I think is particularly strong -- language that I would recommend an activist use in a Larry King Live type discussion.

Stop ... claiming you can speak for all gays and lesbians. Your experience as a gay man was filled with poor choices and self-loathing. It is not a reflection of all gays and lesbians or their personal experiences.

This is so true. Many of the professional ex-gays think ex-gay ministry is good because it did help them. But upon closer examination, what the ministry really helped them with was in making better choices and ending sexual addictions.

In keeping with the Larry King live debate scenario, if I knew that the person promoting the ex-gay ministry had engaged in alot of crazy behavior prior to entering the ex-gay ministry, I would be sure and point that out. Now if such a debate was on Fox News, no doubt their moderator would try and paint the activist as being judgmental and claim that is an attempt to use someone's past, which they had since left behind, to discredit them. Most thinking people, however, would see it as a vital component to understanding whether behavior or orientaion was what was changed.

Stop engaging in deception by omission. Your message only focuses on the poor choices of some gays and lesbians while ignoring all the well adjusted, healthy people successfully living their lives who happen to be gay or lesbian.

I still think this is the BIG one. I remember when I first read about "deception by omission" in Jeff Lutes' A False Focus on My Family. I was like, "Yes, that is exactly what they are doing!"

Stop claiming that gays and lesbians have a “lifestyle”. Gays and lesbians have many different lifestyles and come from all walks of life. There is no one gay lifestyle and grouping us all together into your mold of destruction is inaccurate as well as insulting.

Still a good point. The "moveable middle" will understand this, especially as more and more gay people come out to them in their lives.

Stop generalizing gays and lesbians as (insert bunch of really bad stuff here.)

Good.

Now on the other hand, I think we want to try and avoid arguments that will allow ex-gays to get away with something like, "Well, all I know, Larry, is what happened to me. I behaved in a homosexual way with other men and now I am happily married to a loving wife. I just can't see why these gay activists would want to prevent people like me, people who struggle daily with unwanted same-sex attraction, from entering into this type of ministry. And what really amazes me is why they would spend so much energy trying to prevent a man who has been married to his wife for fifteen years, and who suddenly confesses he struggles with same-sex attraction, from entering into one of our ministries in order to save his marriage. That baffles me, Larry, because it seems like people have a civil right to be ex-gay."

With that, the ex-gay person has cleverly made it look like gays who want to become heterosexuals are the ones being oppressed by the "gay activists." And, as a result, groups like Focus on the Family are cast in a positive light for providing a way for these folks to exercise their right to change.

Very clever on their part in terms of persuasive rhetoric. Especially since we all like to hear stories of marriages that overcome obstacles and go the distance.

I know Corey (schoolboi) was wanting to organize a Soulforce team to monitor the ex-gay ministries.

[Joe Brummer]

I will address (or try) to address the last part of your remarks.

Now on the other hand, I think we want to try and avoid arguments that will allow ex-gays to get away with something like, "Well, all I know, Larry, is what happened to me. I behaved in a homosexual way with other men and now I am happily married to a loving wife. I just can't see why these gay activists would want to prevent people like me, people who struggle daily with unwanted same-sex attraction, from entering into this type of ministry. And what really amazes me is why they would spend so much energy trying to prevent a man who has been married to his wife for fifteen years, and who suddenly confesses he struggles with same-sex attraction, from entering into one of our ministries in order to save his marriage. That baffles me, Larry, because it seems like people have a civil right to be ex-gay."

In my opinion the easiest way to address this argument is "don't". If people have unwanted sexual attractions to the same sex, the last thing they would ever want to join is an ex-gay ministry. As long as those ministries have been brought out into the light for the frauds that they really are. I try to stay away from these arguments by asking the "big question". How do these groups help these people. The websites have little or no "resources" for gays and lesbians seeking change. This is also a good place to point out the science (the truth). If homosexuality is a Pathological condition, then with or without god it should be treatable. There are no secular ex-gay programs. A few that try to claim it, but careful reading of their materials tends to axe that easily.

[Jennifer5]

How ever we deal with things it has to be done carefully... otherswise they just fight back harder... we can see what they're saying now and we're hardly saying anything...

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

How ever we deal with things it has to be done carefully... otherswise they just fight back harder... we can see what they're saying now and we're hardly saying anything...

What if we had a forum...a truce...a summitt, like countries do for peace? we invite all the ex-gay people to come and meet with us. We plan a conference so to speak. We invite all the big ones...Stephen Bennett, James Dobson, DL Foster, exodus, Randy Thomas. What if we brought them together with us, and in someway made it bad for them publically not to show up (ggod marketing). We sit them down, let them speak to us, but also let us speak to them. I think it is important to let them speak their message to us, even though we may not like it, but....."voluntary suffering" we have a chance at reaching "some of them" to change their message. To be less dehumanizing to us. We could adverstise it in the papers as a "peace summitt" between the two groups. Make it a big deal.....give them a chance to speak, but more important we have a chance to speak. The press will hear it and want to cover it, the ex-gays will hear it and want to be there to represent themselves....and we will be there to bring everyone to a jouney to the truth whatever that may be for people.

any thoughts? is this a good idea? could we expand on it? how could we raise the money to make it happen?

[Zerbie]

Not being a politician, marketer, or event planner, I can't help with planning a huge thing like this. But this suggestion is on the right track, I do believe. We will need monitors to make sure neither group gets confrontational or US/THEM when this thing finally happens.

Also, I'm thinking even more important than the official, formal "summit" with media coverage and official speakers, will be - if we can arrange this one - informal meetings of one to one, from both "sides" over lunch, coffee, breakfast, dinner breaks. Letting each "side" meet and connect to what is compassionate and caring and authentic in the other "side" - that will, at least (and this is a HUGE breakthrough if it happens) dilute the perception that all of us are falling into that the "other side" is all full of malice and negative intent - at least, I think both "sides" of us fall into that trap. The polarization and the blaming needs to start stopping.

The breakthrough cathartic moments are almost always at unplanned moments, which is why I can't stress enough that we should have informal one on ones with these folk. Maybe not even talking about sexuality - taking a break from all this. . .circus. Then getting back to solving the *real* problems gays and ex-gays face, as allies instead of waging combat against each other.

Am I being Utopian suddenly? Somebody smack me with a frying pan.

Zerbie

[Jennifer5]

I like what you're saying there won't be much I can do to help... but if I can in some way I'll try see what we can do and get more people involved if possible.

[Joe Brummer]

I have started NEW campaign about Straight Talk Radio. I hope you will all take part in this action, it will only take a moment of your day!

the info on it is here:
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?p=89

[SolInvictus]

Here's a copy of the message I sent to the radio station:

I am emailing to ask that you reconsider airing your "Straight Talk Radio" program.
Evidence from the American Medical Assoc., American Psychiatry Assoc., American Psychological Assoc., and other respected organizations prove that so-called "conversion therapy" for gays & lesbians do not work. If anything, "ex-gay" programs cause more harm than good. Having personally researched this topic, these groups consider celebacy or coerced heterosexual marriages as a success even though no authentic change has occured. Christ commands that we "love one another" and "do good to those who hate you." Love has little to do in these programs, and they present a hypocritical witness for Christianity. Regardless of your view on the topic, consider the actions and results that "ex-gay" programs actually produce. Suicide, increased anxiety, depression, and living a "closeted" life is not healthy or deemed a success as a result of such methods from "ex-gay" minsitries. If you do not believe me, at least, view these links to professional organizations that present the facts:
http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=31
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparative_therapy
God Bless & Peace to You.

[Zerbie]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but fairly certain Wikipedia is not a professional organization. It's a resource, and if I am correct that any random person can edit and modify information on Wikipedia, hardly a reliable one, at that. I wouldn't cite it next time.

Edited to add: The actual letter you sent is excellent, btw. I shoulda remembered to write that the first time, too, and not just be a nit-picking editorial Nazi.

[SolInvictus]

No problem & thanks for the correction in the newsletter & comments.
Don't worry - I used to nitpick my family all the time about correct pronounciations of words so this is my karma returned :-) LOL.

Anyway, I appreciate your response & I'll no longer cite Winipedia. It was late last night & I was trying to find quick resources for reference. I'll be more selective next time and careful :-)

[Zerbie]

Got my daily dose of windmill tilting. I mean, that IS a picture of James Dobson on the radio stations homepage, right?

Anyway, I sent 'em an email too. At least, Joe, the station is hearing from us. At least 3 of us that I am aware of. Hopefully more, and hopefully someday soon it will make a difference.

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Hopefully more, and hopefully someday soon it will make a difference.

A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.
Gandhi

[bettyboop]

Let them do what they have to do! We should just WAIT for the right time. I think we should stay away from the White House on Easter. It will only only rustle the feathers of main-stream America. We MUST be quiet and stay out of the way. There will be a right time, and now is not it.

[Zerbie]

Y'all are gonna love this. . . .

Today I received a very cryptic message in my inbox, and it took me several seconds to figure out what on earth it was.

It came from the radio station, it contained the full text of the email I sent a few days ago urging them to re-consider Straight Talk, and the only message they wrote was:

"another one. . ."

OOPS!! Someone meant to forward that on to the station manager - NOT reply to me!! So, we know they are receiving some negative correspondence in regards to STR, if the message was just, "another one."

Then, the same employee wrote me a second email apologizing for accidentally sending me that cryptic little note, stating in so many words that they have been receiving several emails about it.

What we don't know is if any of this is sinking in and causing folks to reconsider, or if it is just annoying them and making them feel a bit like martyrs. Hopefully the first - that's why I wrote!

Anyway - I thought the accidental reply was a hoot. Too bad it didn't reveal a little more of their attitude!