This saddens me...

[Jennifer5]

While I understand what everyone is saying about Focus on the Family, I have to ask that we take a time out and look at them....

While they cause a lot of hurt for the GLBT community, they are not all bad and they do a lot of good things. They help a lot of people and a lot of families, getting mad about what they say isn't going to fix anything, it's all about understanding and that has to go both ways if we want change. We can't be unreasonable, if we want them to listen, we have to listen to... Dr. Dobson is not a bad guy, but he is also clearly not fully educated on this topic and doesn't understand. So please I ask that we don't get mad and start saying bad things about Focus on the Family... it won't get us anywhere, and saying bad things about other people only makes us look bad.

[jason]

Maybe people's anger/disgust shouldn't be directed at FOF as a whole since good could come out of the organization. Maybe it should instead be directed at the mis-information about homosexuality that they pass off so credibly as fact. Maybe it should be directed at the way they twist credible research findings and reference scientific-sounding "research" (from NARTH for example) to support their claims. So many people are duped into believing what FOF has to say on this subject since it all sounds so convincing. Combine the "scientifically proven" babble with the commonly held belief that the Bible denounces homosexuality and they have people lapping all of it up without examining the issue on their own by looking at "our" side of the story.

So is the problem the information they provide or is it the organization that is providing it?

Addition: Jennifer, I should have added that you're aboslutely right that we cannot expect people to listen to us if we are unwilling to listen. Also, it seems to me that the ones who sling the most dirt are usually the ones who are wrong.

[Zerbie]

Hooo-boy, I'll need a flame-proof suit now. . .usually I agree with everything Jen says, but this time, I don't think so. The trouble is, right now there is no distinction between what FOF does and what FOF is designed to BE. Focus is doing [B]precisely[B] what it intends to do - the misinformation about gays is not being promulgated by mistake or oversight, not at all. Rather, because it fits into a vision that Dobson and certain like-minded individuals have in mind for how they want this country to go.

Remember that Dobson is in bed with our nation's policy-makers. He is not in the FOF business out of charity - it has to do, rather, with getting his agenda for the country to play out. I signed up to receive updates from a local policy group that has Dobson's endorsement on their website, and amounts to a statewide spin-off of FOF (there is one in, I believe, EVERY state), and I've been receiving their fundraising letters. They have declared "war" on the rest of the culture, and now that I've been hearing it for years, I quite believe them that they mean it.

Jen, I do recommend you go read a copy of Mel's new book - there is an extensive discussion of Dobson. He isn't making innocent mistakes. He planned this.

[Jennifer5]

I'm sure you're probably right Zerbie, but when you read this as an outsider just looking at it... it doesn't look good and I'm just saying, I feel it would probably be better if we didn't go negative.... and I'm probably not the one to say and I'm very open to other opinions or anything.


Thank you Zerbie, and I would like to read "Religion Gone Bad" if I can ever get a copy...

[ladyinred]

Apparently Paul Cameron is alive and well and spreading more of his mythology about how gays threaten the foundation of heterosexual marriages and families. His studies claim he as empirical evidence on gays that they are degenerates, disease ridden, mentally unstable,spreading aids throughout society(Aids is a gay disease? As if heterosexuals don't and can't get it?) Also what spreading this type of misinformation through -out the straight community,is the misconception that they can't or don't get aids. It does a diservice to their own, for example if young straight heterosexuals are led to believe that aids is the gay plague, and they are immune to getting it ,they may not use protection and may surpisingly find that they are infected by it. Mr Cameron is venomous to say the least. But why his research should be discredited , is one obvious fact. HE hates gay people. I read where as a child he was molested by a man, so he obviously has an axe to grind with gays. How could his research be based on anything objective in the first place. It's obvious in his hatred and contempt for gay people , he will go out of his way in his research to find the worst to support as what he calls as evidence to their decadence. It should be discredited on that basis alone. His subjective biases have formed his opinions about gays and therefore his research is intended to demonize gays and to show that they are innately evil and therefore must be destroyed.. Any good researcher will want to lay aside prejudices and his own personal judgements to find out objectively what the truth is. This man is not only paranoid, he is a quack, no wonder he was discredited as a researcher.. He is also abnormally obsessed with the gay lifestyle and has even suggested extermination of gays ( Sounds again like Hitler and the jews )Read some of my earlier posts , I had posted where a man had said that pseudo science had helped Hitler in his support to exterminate jews( among some things that were said about Jews is they were disease ridden, destroying Germany's economy,among other things.) I've added Cameron's website because he is currently trying to undermine legislation on gay rights. I will include the website and part of current news on his website -this is part of it......Latest Family Research Report
the website:www.familyresearchinsti.org

Latest Family Research Report

FRR February 2006 – FRI Causing 'Disunity?'

Special from the Editor

Many of you may be wondering why FRI decided to publicly oppose Focus on the Family’s endorsement of a proposed legislative bill (SB 166) in Colorado to grant some of the benefits traditionally reserved for marriage to ‘reciprocal beneficiaries.’ Why have we put out a series of press releases criticizing James Dobson and his position in this matter? Why have we added details of this dispute to our website?

In this issue of Family Research Report, we will attempt to answer these questions and more. Several individuals have contacted us to defend Dr. Dobson and to accuse us of causing ‘disunity’ in the body of Christ. They have suggested that we must put forward a ‘united front’ in the battle against those who would try to destroy marriage. They have also accused us of ruining our own credibility as an organization.

read more...

[ladyinred]

Here is some history on jewish people and their persecution and what I see as similarities with gay people - how they were discriminated against, scapegoated, and denied their civil and basic rights as well. I will just include the website where the article is on, but you will be surprised at the striking similarities of how gay people and jewish people were and are viewed and have been treated.
http://www.adl.org/education/holocau...st_history.asp

[ladyinred]

Jews were deemed to be people of all sort of decadence and a threat to Germany's culture ,economy , Christianity among other things. What is so surprising is Hitler's outlook shares striking similarities with the religious right agenda and their views...http://www.bedfordgaol.com/part3-2.html

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

While they cause a lot of hurt for the GLBT community, they are not all bad and they do a lot of good things. They help a lot of people and a lot of families, getting mad about what they say isn't going to fix anything, it's all about understanding and that has to go both ways if we want change. We can't be unreasonable, if we want them to listen, we have to listen to... Dr. Dobson is not a bad guy, but he is also clearly not fully educated on this topic and doesn't understand. So please I ask that we don't get mad and start saying bad things about Focus on the Family... it won't get us anywhere, and saying bad things about other people only makes us look bad.

I am revolted by such comments. How are these people helping a lot of people or a lot of families when their entire belief systems are skewed? How are they helping families when they are ripping them apart? We can't be understanding with social conservatives who seem hell bent on putting their doctrine into government, infringing on the liberties of millions. Dr Dobson not a bad guy? It isn't that these people aren't educated. I usually refer to the quote in my signature. It isn't that these people are extreme... I say go ahead and spew whatever beliefs you want...

It is that they want to put their beliefs into legislation. That's dangerous.

I'm going to say bad things about bad people because I feel they are going to do bad things to my civil rights.

The entire organization of Focus on the Family is fundamentally wrong.

[Zerbie]

Okay let's all chill for a sec' here - Yes, Dobson knows what he's doing and it's on purpose, yes FOF exists to put certain peoples' Biblical interpretations into law. You know you're correct about Dobson and FOF, Giancarlo, and so do I.

But imagine that you were NOT familiar with Dobson and FOF, and then you go to their main website. If you look at their main page, it looks like something good. It looks like nice stuff - how to improve your marriage, relationship skills advice and suggestions - all very pretty. You have to dig deeper to find the agenda - it's not like going to the main webpage of, say, Traditional Values Coalition, which practically drips green slime across your computer monitor.

So let's please try not to use harsh language against our own, here. Our Jen is one of the sweetest, kindest, most supportive people on this forum, and wise beyond her years. She wants to extend charity and loving-kindness to everyone she meets. It's her gift.

[Dash]

I've struggled myself with that one nonviolent credo to which Soulforce is committed that says:

I believe that my adversary is also a child of the Creator, that we are both members of the same human family, that we are sisters and brothers in need of reconciliation.

I believe that my adversary is not my enemy, but a victim of misinformation as I have been.

I believe that my only task is to bring my adversary truth in love (nonviolence) relentlessly.

I believe that my adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion.

I believe that even my worst adversary has an amazing potential for positive change.

I believe that my adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have.

I believe that one day my adversary and I will understand each other and that if we conduct our search for truth guided by the principles of love, we will find a new position to satisfy us both.

It's the point about motives that trips me up sometimes. Last night for example (or two nights ago...i don't know) I stopped byRandy Thomas' blog...almost never go there. If you don't know, Randy Thomas is a spokesperson for Exodus International and promotes all of their viewpoints which are frustratingly misleading. Randy...as much as I disagree with him...is a nice guy. When I read what he has to say, I recognize myself. I was once a fundamentalist. I know how they think and I recognize their "voice." I know (and I can't emphasize this enough) I know he's a good guy. If he's not a good guy, then I never was when I was a fundamentalist fighting my own sexuality. He's nice. He's sweet. And I am utterly and completely opposed to his message.

It is the hardest thing in the world for me to leave questions of character and motivation out of my opposition to these my "challengers" (did tdogg first provide that word here or was it someone else?...I love it!). Giancarlo's passion is mine too! And I want to own Jen's compassion for those who oppress us! Socrates said that those who do harm suffer more than their victims, which is both my inspiration to avoid harming my opponents as well as my motivation for compassion.

But it's not easy...

[Giancarlo]

I do not believe in violence against them. I honestly think that these conservative fundamentalists can change their beliefs. They are deluded. I just think that people like Dobson and Robertson are a danger to democracy. Exodus International in my opinion should be shut down because it brainwashes people. It drives people to suicide. Basta ya.

I do see what SoulForce is committed too, and I agree with most of it. However there is one thing I cannot agree with at all:

"I believe that my adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have."

What insight do these conservatives have?

[Jennifer5]

Insight... I think that there is a lot of opinion probably involved here.

But I feel that I can never expect them to understand and know what I'm saying if I can't understand them and know what they are saying. The way I see it unconditional love and understanding are they only way to ever make any progress, after all we can't just sit here and say that they're wrong and we're right... because that's what they're doing, and it get us know where.

One of my favorite quotes...

Two people with different belief systems meet at a point which is truth.
I don't have the slightest idea where I heard that, but I feel that there is a lot of truth behind it.

[Dash]

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

I do see what SoulForce is committed too, and I agree with most of it. However there is one thing I cannot agree with at all:

"I believe that my adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have."

What insight do these conservatives have?

I hear you. Sometimes I can't imagine that they have any insight...especially in the area of my life or love. First, though, I think it's okay to remember that sentence says "may have an insight". They may not! But if I'm not open to whatever wisdom they may have, what I'm really shutting out is Wisdom itself...that Spirit or Voice that sometimes speaks through me, but often through people and circumstances through which I'd least expect it.

Think about this: that Spirit has put certain truths that our anti-gay religious adversaries desperately need to hear in the mouths of those whom they are most reluctant to trust or believe. That Spirit has a way of doing that again and again in many situations. I don't know why that is, but if I shut myself off from the chance that conservatives may have an insight that I don't, I risk missing something important. I also am not really being open to them or loving them if I say in my heart that they are incapable of understanding or having insight.

I also have to remember that I was one of those fundamentalists. I used to hate myself as a person struggling with his sexuality. It was... now get this... it was Pat Robertson's conservative co-host of the 700 Club that convinced me that God loved me. That was an insight that I did not have at the time. Watching that show in the early nineties was just the beginning of my journey to wholeness, and yes, it led me far from where the 700 Club might wish me to go, but nonetheless...that was the mouthpiece chosen to impart this important knowledge to me.

[Jennifer5]

What a weird and unexpected twist that is... amazing Dash ....you've sure come a long way form there.

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

Insight... I think that there is a lot of opinion probably involved here.

But I feel that I can never expect them to understand and know what I'm saying if I can't understand them and know what they are saying. The way I see it unconditional love and understanding are they only way to ever make any progress, after all we can't just sit here and say that they're wrong and we're right... because that's what they're doing, and it get us know where.

One of my favorite quotes...

Two people with different belief systems meet at a point which is truth.
I don't have the slightest idea where I heard that, but I feel that there is a lot of truth behind it.

I do not make compromises on my beliefs because the one thing I ask for is equal rights. I do not think I can compromise when it comes to my civil rights. I believe in a strong unwavering democratic tradition, and the religious right in this country do not.

I'm not christian. Nonetheless, I'm saying rather than compromising... we should understand their viewpoints. Sun Tzu is an ancient Chinese philosopher who suggested that one should understand how their foes work. This doesn't mean accept their view points, or accept that they have a valid viewpoint, but rather focus on undermining them in any way possible.

This may come off as harsh or somethings rather extreme on my own part, but I do not see compromise or negotiation as a possibility with these religious conservatives because they only want one thing. That one thing they want is a religious theocratic state and they would not stop until they achieve just that.

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

I do not make compromises on my beliefs because the one thing I ask for is equal rights. I do not think I can compromise when it comes to my civil rights. I believe in a strong unwavering democratic tradition, and the religious right in this country do not.

I'm not christian. I'm saying rather than compromising... we should understand their viewpoints. Sun Tzu is an ancient Chinese philosopher who suggested that one should understand how their foes work. This doesn't mean accept their view points, or accept that they have a valid viewpoint, but rather focus on undermining them in any way possible.

In my opinion that's your lose then, because I feel that every individual has something to offer us if we just stop and listen. I don't feel that we'll get anywhere undermining people. Understand them, their good qualities and bad, then follow the good and learn from the bad, but don't call them less of a person for having them. We all have flaws, the point is to recognize them and move on. We can't judge them for being human, but we can work together to learn from each other.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

In my opinion that's your lose then, because I feel that every individual has something to offer us if we just stop and listen. I don't feel that we'll get anywhere undermining people. Understand them, their good qualities and bad, then follow the good and learn from the bad, but don't call them less of a person for having them. We all have flaws, the point is to recognize them and move on. We can't judge them for being human, but we can work together to learn from each other.

Dear Jennifer: That is indeed the essence of nonviolence, and it's a hard one to come to grips with, but it is one that anyone who strives to be nonviolent must struggle with. It is hard to see where someone like Bush has any truth to teach me, but as a child of God, he clearly must have.

During the Equality Ride while we were in Abilene I had a chance to spend an hour with an exgay. Now I have to acknowledge that in the past whenever someone has identified themselves as exgay - a little fence goes up and I say to myself - not exgay simply suppressing their gayness.

After an hour with Sally, I could honestly say, that I had changed my perspective. I still believe most exgays are suppressing, but I could also celebrate that for Sally her being gay had separated her from God. I acknowledged that to her and asked her if she could possibly recognize that my being gay bound me closer to God - it did not separate me.

She couldn't acknowledge it (at least out loud) but for me the moment of reconcilliation happened because I could see her truth.

kara

[tdogg]

At the very least by understanding those who oppose us, we can reinforce why we believe what we do. It's hard to accept that those who are so against me can possibly have opinions or beliefs that are as valid as mine - but they do. It's relative, their opinions and beliefs are their reality, as mine is my own. I agree that they likely won't convince me, and I probably won't convince them, but if we could meet in the middle somewhere in the understanding process, that's progress. It doesn't mean I can't fight for my equal rights, it doesn't mean that I have to agree with their beliefs. It only means that, like Jennifer says, I need to understand their beliefs are valid to them and it's possible they will have something to teach me by it. It's really not an easy place to be, which is why often it's a lifetime learning opportunity and maturing process.

Jennifer, it's really amazing that you can hold the view you have at such a young age. Just a testament to your maturity level. By the way, how is the home work going???

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

In my opinion that's your lose then, because I feel that every individual has something to offer us if we just stop and listen. I don't feel that we'll get anywhere undermining people. Understand them, their good qualities and bad, then follow the good and learn from the bad, but don't call them less of a person for having them. We all have flaws, the point is to recognize them and move on. We can't judge them for being human, but we can work together to learn from each other.

If we do not undermine them and stop them, they'll put their beliefs into government. That'll infringe on my civil rights. That I cannot allow.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

If we do not undermine them and stop them, they'll put their beliefs into government. That'll infringe on my civil rights. That I cannot allow.

you are confusing nonviolence with doing nothing. The most powerful force in the world is nonviolence. Gandhi and King both proved that. When we demonize someone else, we start the process of violence. When we help someone understand, we stop the fear and the violence.