"Right to Serve" Why I am leaving Soulforce

[kara speltz]

I sent this letter today to the Board and to the Staff:

Ever since April, when I first heard Jake talk about the "Right to Serve" campaign, I have been struggling mightily with whether I could stay on with Soulforce. I even quit for a 24 hour period, but decided ultimately that given that the RTS was simply one small campaign that would be finished in August, I could stay. But the reports on RTS continued through August, September, October with forecasted demonstrations in November. On Monday, when on a staff call Haven talked about working on a fund raising letter for RTS, I was shocked to say the least.

I have never been able to comprehend how an organization that proclaimed King and Gandhi as our teachers could support such an action. I always saw Soulforce, as a nonviolent organization focusing on winning the rights of LGBTs through nonviolence. For me, nonviolence is not a tactic, it is a way of life. Believing in nonviolence means to me that it forces us to reframe all we have previously been taught about life and meaning. It means every single life is sacred. As I see it, Soulforce has changed from a nonviolent organization supporting the rights of LGBTs, to just another gay rights group using the tactics of nonviolence. That commitment to nonviolence made us unique unlike any other organization. Through these almost 8 years, Soulforce has taught me much about nonviolence, and I am so very grateful for that.

But I just can't comprehend how people committed to nonviolence, can encourage anyone, straight or gay, to join the military in this time of a clearly immoral war? While people in the peace movement are trying to stop recruitments we stand against them trying to have people join the military. How can we put the rights of gay people before the basic right of the Iraqi people to peace and justice? I have seen that suffering up close in Iraq in my two trips there, and I simply cannot stand by and watch as any organization I belong to, encourages people to join the armed forces at this time.

As Jamie has pointed out a number of times, King was very clear about the war in Vietnam - another of America's immoral wars. How can we take this unholy stand?

And so it is with very heavy heart, that I have made this decision. For me it is like going through a very painful divorce. I pray that Soulforce will return to its original commitment to nonviolence as a way of life and decide to stop this Right to Serve campaign. If that were to happen, I would be so proud to be a member of this organization. But it appears that Soulforce has become comfortable with this new tract, and I have no real expectation that it could or would change at this point.

My last day with Soulforce will be December 31, 2006.

Sadly, Kara

[Zerbie]

Regretable and understandable. I hope you will continue to frequent the forum and share your input.

All the best in your future endeavors.


Peace,

Zerbie

[HarmlessEccentric]

I understand where you are coming from. I am a longtime pacifist, and I would certainly be more comfortable if the next initiative came in an area that I could support. I'm also uncomfortable with how far it is from what I thought was the purpose of Soulforce- to help people of faith learn to accept gay and lesbian people of faith.

But I'm going to stick with Soulforce through this one. Gay people should be allowed to serve in the military, if they want to, and it's worthwhile to get people having the conversation about why they can't. It's not a path I'd choose, or one that I'd advise anyone I care about to choose, but it's a choice I should be able to make.

Still... it's a long way from the issues of faith and religion that brought me to Soulforce.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by HarmlessEccentric

But I'm going to stick with Soulforce through this one. Still... it's a long way from the issues of faith and religion that brought me to Soulforce.

Dear Harmless: Please know I wasn't suggesting everyone should leave Soulforce. As a staffmember, I felt compelled. My reasons for sharing this struggle are two-fold. One because I believe Soulforce leadership at this point needs a great deal of prayer, and two they need to hear from people who believe we should return to our nonviolent commitments.

I will always love Soulforce, not only for all the amazing folks I've met within Soulforce, but for the wonderful opportunities it gave me.

Kara

[NathanATX]

I don't think that joining the military is saying you support Bush's war. If we continued down that logical path, we could assume that all troops support the war... but we know that isn't true. There is a growing, more vocal dissent among the troops every day.

I believe most people join the military out of a desire to serve their country, protect our people & values, etc. Some join because it is the best career alternative they have... Some consider it a great career path.

Is there a more productive solution to your concerns?

Could you develop a program within Soulforce that advocates peace?

I just don't believe that joining the military is equivalent to supporting George Bush's evils... It might actually turn out to be a way to help ensure a higher level of moral integrity in our forces.

Kara, I thank you for all your love, gifts, time & service with Soulforce. I hope you will reconsider leaving and find a solution that satisifies your desire to work for an end to Bush's wars. Whatever choice you make, know that we hold the deepest love and respect for you.

Much love,
Nate

[BruceChris]

Kara, you will always be welcome here.

Bruce Chris

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

I am not critical of Kara, and I agree with her anti-war stance. Still, I do feel that I can, in good conscience, support the Right to Serve campaign without endorsing either this war or war in general.

I was really pleased to see in Mel's new book that he takes a firm stand against the Iraq War. It's not a very big piece of the book and I don't believe it addresses our Right to Serve campaign at all, but I'm glad he wrote it. I sensed he was against the war years ago, but noticed that he ducked an argument over it at an informal dinner I attended with him once. I don't fault him for that either--arguments at dinner are never a good idea!

I agree with Nate--I believe it is a mistake for progressives and pro-peace people to let themselves become alienated from military people and veterans. I believe we need to have progressives and pro-peace people in the military if we are to maintain a healthy democracy. Frankly, I think I'm probably pro-draft because a draft would probably have assured a stronger protest against this war. War in this country is too easy when all that is required of the rich who rule is to hire the poor without job alternatives to fight their wars for them.

I hope we do not lose Kara's input here nor her on-going witness to peace. I appreciate that she is remaining true to her principles.

Steven Webster

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

I am not critical of Kara, and I agree with her anti-war stance. Still, I do feel that I can, in good conscience, support the Right to Serve campaign without endorsing either this war or war in general.

I'm thinking that this is the dividing point. Among progressives, everyone is against the war. It has become our motto, our yellow ribbon magnet that we put on our cars, a short paragraph we place somewhere on our web sites or blogs.

But do our actions line-up with our words? Or are we fueling what we say we're against?

Like other progressives, Dr. King could have merely stated that while he was not in favor of the war in Vietnam, his concerns were more on the line of civil rights for African Americans. In fact, that is what he did for the first three years of the war. But then he reached a point where he knew he could no longer be silent. And when he crossed that line he did so with the conviction of a man of faith. Dr. King told the young people to go to jail. Go to jail rather than go to Vietnam as part of the U.S. military.

Soulforce, on the other hand, is actively taking people to the military recruitment centers. And not during a time of peace, mind you, but right in the middle of the Iraq war. Questionable from a gay rights group, unbelievable for an interfaith organization rooted in nonviolence.

A majority vote may have made the Right to Serve campaign a reality, it did not make it right. That is my analysis.

The truly shocking thing, of course, is that people I respect and care about seem to see the matter completely differently. I shake my head in disbelief and am on the verge of tearing my clothes and pouring ashes on my head Old Testament style.

[Jamie McDaniel]

The Rev. Dr. Paul Egertson, Bishop Emeritus, Southwest California Synod, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and senior lecturer in Religion at California Lutheran University is on the Soulforce Board of Directors. He asked that I post his response to Kara's letter of resignation.

---------------------------------------

Kara,

Thank you for sharing your struggle and decision in response to Soulforce's Right to Serve initiative. I would deeply regret losing you as a colleague in the effort to bring justice to the GLBT community through non-violence. The role you have played has been inspirational to many of us and your absence will be painful.

I hesitate to request reconsideration when a person has taken a difficult stand on grounds of conscience. So please don't read the following as a questioning of either your convictions or your courage. I only need to give you my witness as you have so clearly given us yours.

If I thought the Right to Serve initiative (I don't use words like crusade or even campaign for such efforts because of their aggressive and militaristic associations) was an endorsement of the war in Iraq, I would be resigning from Soulforce with you. However, as a member of the Board where this effort was described, discussed and supported, I can say that no such implication was ever even hinted at nor was any such interpretation implied. I think I can say that no member of the Board would have supported the effort if that had been either its intent or an anticipated unintended consequence.

The focus of the effort in my understanding is only to challenge the injustice to GLBT people that is blatant in the government's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy in regard to serving the security needs of the nation. That our current administration is at least unwisely and at worst immorally using the security forces that keep us free in ways that lead to more rather than less violence, does not negate the larger need for a military arm to foster peace in the nation and the world.

In other words, the existence of a military and the use of the military are separate things and its misuse does not negate the need for its existence for appropriate use. I would not live in a country that had no protective system such as police and military units because, however unwisely they may sometimes be misused, on balance they reduce the violence in a community and increase the peace in society. Without them, peace would be nonexistent and violence rampant. I believe in original sin.

The Right to Serve initiative addresses that larger issue and seems to me to be totally in line with the Soulforce commitment to non-violence. Total pacifism and non-violence are not identical in my mind, though I know they are in the minds of others. If I believed that the very existence of a military in our government was itself an evil, then I would rejoice that GLBT people were exempt from it and congratulate our administration for its policy and advocate for its expansion to include all people. But since I cannot in conscience do that, I must in conscience advocate for a change in the current policy. At the same time, I can non-violently advocate for an end to the misuse of our military in Iraq. They are separate issues.

Since you remain with us through this year, I'll pray that the Spirit may find a way for you to both remain active in opposition to the Iraq war and remain in partnership with Soulforce - understanding that Right to Serve is not an endorsement of that or any war, but an appeal to our government to allow GLBT people to participate in keeping the peace in our country. It's a close but I think clear distinction.

Blessings
Paul Egertson

[marutidas]

If the internal of hatred is not tamed,
When one tries to tame external enemies, they increase.
Therefore it is the practice of the wise to tame themselves
By means of the forces of Love and Compassion.
--Bodhisattva Tokmay Sangpo
(the Buddha of Compassion)

While we should be able to choose our own path in life.
I will never be comfortable with the idea of war.
To many countries at this time are too comfortable with idea of ending another human being's life.

At present you find it unbearable that your friends suffer,
But you are pleased that your enemies suffer, and
you are indiffernet to the suffering of neutral persons.
--Tsongkhapa, Great Treaties on the stages of the Path

I hope that you will come and visit every now and again, Kara.
With closed palms, I bow to the divinity within you.
Your devotion to peace is unyeilding, you will be missed.

[Jeff Lutes]

Dear Soulforce Friends,

Thank you for your open and honest dialogue regarding the disappointing news that Kara Speltz has resigned from the staff at Soulforce. As Executive Director, I appreciate the many ways you have offered your love and prayers to Kara as she continues on her journey.

I want you to know that the decision to support the “Right to Serve” campaign and our youth was one made only after countless hours of prayerful consideration. We listened to our staff, our board, and many other loyal supporters and weighed their varying opinions carefully before making our decision. We wholeheartedly support the youth’s courageous efforts.

Our youth are also busy planning “Equality Ride 2007: Twice the Impact” with two buses and twice as many universities that will hear the truth about God’s love for LGBT people, just as they are. They need your support.

I’ve asked our President and Founder, the Rev. Dr. Mel White, to summarize our reasons for supporting the “Right to Serve” campaign. You will find his thoughtful response below.

Blessings,

Jeff Lutes, MS, LPC

[Mel White]

Dear Soulforce friends,

I have just received word that Kara Speltz, a beloved colleague, has resigned from Soulforce to protest the “Right to Serve” campaign by our Soulforce Youth. I am only responding to her complaints publicly because she has gone so public with her complaints. These are the two primary reasons she gives for her resignation.

First Kara writes,

Originally Posted by kara speltz

...I just can't comprehend how people committed to nonviolence, can encourage anyone, straight or gay, to join the military in this time of a clearly immoral war? While people in the peace movement are trying to stop recruitments we stand against them trying to have people join the military.

I feel terrible about losing Kara. She has been a good and faithful friend. But she has not been able to comprehend the fact that from the beginning our young people have not "encouraged anyone to join the military." NOT ONE! There are tens of thousands of GLBT Americans who for their own personal reasons want to serve their nation in the military. It is not our role to judge or condemn their decision.

The ban that keeps them from serving is a PRIMARY EXAMPLE of religion based oppression. Therefore our Soulforce Mission Statement compels us to oppose the ban. Our archives are filled with radio and television recordings, booklets, pamphlets, tracts, and fund raising letters from Christian fundamentalist leaders who use this issue to demean, dehumanize and demonize all GLBT Americans as sexual predators who will prey on their comrades in arms. This lie, and therefore this ban, has tragic consequences for us all.

Remember, the overriding goal of Christian fundamentalists is to see that GLBT Americans are never accepted as a legitimate minority. "That would bring God's judgment on the land," they say. That's why they attack us on every front simultaneously insisting that we be denied: hate crime legislation, domestic partnership, adoption and foster care rights, public housing or accommodation protections, the civil rights of marriage, the religious rites of ordination and the right to serve this nation in the military.

Our youth leaders were wise to attack the ban at this time when 75-80% of all Americans favor the rights of GLBT people to serve in the military. This rising opposition to the ban is the only place where Christian fundamentalists are truly vulnerable. To end the ban would be a HUGE STEP FORWARD in our struggle against religion based oppression and a MAJOR LOSS in the false and inflammatory campaign by Christian fundamentalists against us.

The "Right to Serve Campaign" has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH RECRUITING GLBT FOR THE MILITARY. From the beginning Jake, Haven and our other young allies (gay and straight alike) in thirty cities have simply gone where there are GLBT Americans whose family histories often include generations of military service, GLBT Americans who have dreamed all their lives of attending West Point or Annapolis, GLBT American who for whatever reason want to serve their country in the military. Our Soulforce Youth have said simply, “We will help end the injustice against you by giving you a platform to make your case against it and we will provide you our relentless nonviolent support with silent vigils, nonviolent protests and when necessary civil disobedience.”

To even suggest that Soulforce is "encouraging any one - straight or gay - to join the military..." is absolutely untrue and an unfair characterization of the goals of our Soulforce Youth. Please take one moment to click on the link below. Watch the TV interviews of these GLBT Americans who have dreamed of serving their country as their fathers and grandfathers before them. You will see that these young Americans are suffering religion based oppression as much as those who cannot be married or ordained. You will also discover that our “Right to Serve” Soulforce Youth Campaign provides the nation a deeply moving example of young people taking their powerful and exemplary stand against religion based oppression by their thoughtful practice of relentless nonviolent resistance.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/865

Kara also writes:

Originally Posted by kara speltz

...King was very clear about the war in Vietnam - another of America's immoral wars. How can we take this unholy stand?

Our stand is not an “unholy stand” supporting the war in Afghanistan, Iraq or any of the other unwise and illegitimate military efforts of this administration. Our stand is no more and no less than an act of relentless nonviolent resistance against religion based oppression.

For our Soulforce Youth to refuse to attack this major example of religion based oppression would say to our GLBT sisters and brothers who want to join the military, we are sorry that you are suffering but we cannot support your struggle for justice because we do not believe in war let alone the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Although I am a member of several peace organizations including the Fellowship of Reconciliation, I did not begin Soulforce as a peace organization determined to end war. We are (I say again) a justice seeking organization determined to end religion based oppression against GLBT people through relentless nonviolent resistance.

Now, I would like to speak more specifically to the comparison of our Soulforce “Right to Serve” Campaign with Dr. King’s 1967 stand against the war in Vietnam. Dr. King never had to struggle for the rights of black Americans to serve in the military. That struggle began in 1863 when civil rights activist Frederick Douglas pressured President Lincoln to use an executive order to allow black Americans to serve their country in the military. It ended in 1947 when civil rights activist A. Phillip Randolph pressured President Truman to use an executive order to integrate the military. In 1961, Dr. King used the Nation magazine to praise the President for integrating the armed forces through Executive Order 9981 and went on to remind the current President that Executive Orders could also be used to end all discrimination against black Americans.

During his first campaign for the presidency, Bill Clinton promised to end the ban on gays in the military “shortly after his inauguration.” When he was forced to break his promise by the overwhelming opposition by Christian fundamentalists, the President made things even worse with his flawed policy,“Don’t Ask. Don’t Tell. Don’t Pursue.”

Seeing the President capitulate to the demands of Christian fundamentalist leaders, I joined other civil rights activist in a White House protest that ended in our arrest. The “Right to Serve” campaign by our Soulforce Youth stands directly in that tradition. Whether a war is “just” or “unjust” the law banning our right to serve in the military is an unjust law held in place by the antigay rhetoric of Christian fundamentalists and Soulforce has no option but to attack that unjust law. Our Soulforce Youth are doing the same work for GLBT Americans as the work done by Frederick Douglass and A. Phillip Randolph for African-Americans.

The question we must ask is NOT should we work too end the ban but how should Soulforce respond to the war efforts of the Bush Administration. It was a very difficult decision for Dr. King to condemn the war in Vietnam. I have been thrilled to preach twice in that Riverside Church where on April 4, 1967 King announced his opposition to the war in Vietnam. I can only begin to imagine the pressure he faced that day.

“When pressed by the demands of untruth,” King explained, “men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government’s policy, especially in time of war…Moreover when the issues at hand seem as perplexed as they often do in the case of this dreadful conflict we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty. But we must move on.” Dr. King describes his own decision to oppose the war as “a vocation of agony” and then added “But we must speak.”

It’s been four years since the US invaded Iraq. To decide how we as individuals should respond to that war is long overdue. So, now I must ask myself, how does my Christian faith (and my commitment to relentless nonviolent resistance) call me to respond to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? Gary and I have opposed the foreign policies of the Bush administration privately as American citizens. We have contributed personal funds to organizations and candidates opposing the war (including the organization that sent Kara to Iraq.) We are currently knocking on doors, making phone calls, raising funds, posting ads, lawn signs and bumper stickers to support candidates opposed to this unjust and immoral war. And though I have opposed this so called “war on terror” from the beginning as a private citizen, while Executive Director of Soulforce I did not assume the right to speak for the Soulforce board, staff, or our faithful supporters on any other issue than the issue clearly mandated by our Mission Statement.

On November 7, Gary and I hope that leadership in the Congress will change, that those who are elected will pressure our President to end this war and in the process end the useless suffering and death on all sides. However, if Christian fundamentalists succeed in keeping their control over Congress or if a newly elected Democrat majority fails to act quickly to withdraw our troops and end this war, I will call GLBT activists to join together in a massive White House protest against the President’s war policies. I will do this not as President of Soulforce but as a Christian American committed to the principles of relentless nonviolent resistance.

In closing I want you to know that the “Right to Serve” campaign has cost Soulforce the loss of several long time friends and supporters including our own Kara Speltz. At this moment, Soulforce is struggling month by month just to pay the bills. Nevertheless it is a price we are willing to pay.
I will miss Kara dearly but I believe with all my heart that she is wrong to condemn the “Right to Serve” campaign.

It is ironic that Kara was one of the trainers who taught the principles of relentless nonviolent resistance to our Soulforce Youth. Now they are putting those principles to practice in their way to confront an issue that effects their generation. I hope you will join in me in prayerful support of these courageous and committed young people as they oppose a ban that demeans and dehumanizes all GLBT people, denies GLBT people another of our civil rights, and make outcasts of millions of loyal, loving Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Americans. I congratulate them and wish them well!

[Daniel]

Dear Dr. White,

While it may be a fact that no young person has actually encouraged anyone to join the military, it is equally true that the public and this forumite is left with the distinct impression to the contrary. As has been noted, the medium is the message. Seeing an organization which expouses the methods of NONVIOLENCE belly up to the bar of one's neighborhood recruiting station not only causes consternation in this reader, but the desire to join in the sentiment as expressed by Jamie.

We can perhaps all agree that government discrimination of gay persons isn't a good thing, but the hairsplitting argument that you use in this matter does Soulforce a disservice. Just because young people are eager to serve (and die) for their country says less about government policy than it does about youth which thinks itself immortal.

There is nothing noble or moral about dying or killing. My own father, who served in the Korean War, had nothing good to say about the affair. War is a messy business. Which speaks to point: methods of nonviolence and methods of attack are as much the mixing of and water and oil. Together, they make for a very slippery surface.

I fear that Soulforce is getting in way over its head regarding this policy. Just because religious conservatives are 'vulnerable' on this issue is no reason to attack the matter.

Sincere regards,

Daniel

[NathanATX]

Daniel, when this evil war is over and our forces are used for genuine peacekeeping and stabilizing initiatives, will your position be the same?

I don't like war... especially this war.

Rev. Paul Dodd is one of the clergy in residence at my church. He was a Southern Baptist military chaplain for many years... I think he was the highest ranking Southern Baptist chaplain. Anyway, I've heard him share how hard it was to be gay in the military. I have several friends who married each other to make it easier to be closeted (gay man & lesbian). The Servicemembers Legal Defese Network, www.sldn.org, has been working for years to bring inclusion to the armed forces.

Anyway... I do believe this is a social justice issue and one that Soulforce should lead on. The timing is the big issue, I guess.

love,
Nate

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Daniel, when this evil war is over and our forces are used for genuine peacekeeping and stabilizing initiatives, will your position be the same?

Yes. My 'position' will remain the same.

I am not a pacifist- that's not how I understand the principles of nonviolence to function. I simply do no see how the end justifies the means.

It's been documented that gay people are much less prone to violence. And it seems to me that we should think twice about being involved in the aggression that is all too often encouraged in young men. And I do not see why one should rely on leaders- whoever they are- who all too often send young people to their deaths. This war- that war- it is all the same regardless of the party in power. It is hubris to think that- gee- once 'we' get in power all will be better. It won't. It is the culture of war and aggression itself that needs addressing.

Can we live without aggression and attack? I think we can. And we must, I believe, if we are to live into the 22nd century. Everyone (and we started the madness), wants the right to the bomb. And what is 'defense'? A nice way to get ready to attack.

A line from A Course in Miracles that is worth contemplating.

Truth Needs No Defense

Or how about this one?

Thou Shall Not Kill

Or this one?

Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You.

Do you really want the right to kill? For that is what Soulforce is fighting for. You can put any kind of noble or happy face on it, but it's still the fight for the right to harm another human being.

What then, does nonviolence mean?

This is a much bigger issue than the Right to Serve.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Daniel

.
Do you really want the right to kill? For that is what Soulforce is fighting for. You can put any kind of noble or happy face on it, but it's still the fight for the right to harm another human being.

What then, does nonviolence mean?

This is a much bigger issue than the Right to Serve.

Daniel: I couldn't agree more. I'd like to share with people the quote my friend Jim Loney made about his rescue after being held captive for 4 months in Iraq. He spoke of the paradox, and the need for us to always strive to live our lives steeped in nonviolence. He wrote this just shortly after his rescue.

"I am confronted with a great paradox. I, the Christian pacifist peacemaker, am alive, am free because of the very institutions I believe are contrary to Christian teaching.

"Christ teaches us to love our enemies, do good to those who harm us, pray for those who persecute us. He calls us to accept suffering before we inflict injury. He calls us to pick up the cross and to lay down the sword.

"We will most certainly fail in this call. I did. And I'll fail again. This does not change Christ's teaching that violence itself is the tomb, violence is the dead end.

"Peace won through the barrel of a gun might be a victory, but it is not peace. Our captors have guns and they ruled over us. Our rescuers had bigger guns and ruled over our captors. We were freed, but the rule of the gun stayed.

I'm learning that there are many kinds of prisons and many kinds of tombs. Prisons of the mind, the heart, the body. Tombs of despair, fear confusion. Tombs within tombs and prisons within prisons.

"There are no easy answers. We must all find our way through a broken world, struggling with the paradox of call and failure. My captivity and rescue have helped me to catch a glimpse of how powerful the force of Resurrection is. God seeks us wherever we are, reaches for us in whatever darkness we inhabit. May we reach for each other with the same persistence. The tomb is not the final word."

Kara

[Zerbie]

Brilliant, Daniel.

I see the passionate caring expressed by everyone here, and ultimately Daniel puts it better than I can, it is the culture of violence itself that must be addressed, not the details.

Kara's friend also says the same. (Kara, glad you stuck around, please stay on the forums!)

Know that I love all my friends here, and the SF leadership as well. Love is what we ultimately seek to express, and it's Love that must be bigger than "our team/their team" "gay people/straight people" and so on, and on, and on. . .

Thanks for all the wisdom and insights from all on this thread.
Peace,
Zerbie

[NathanATX]

I was just thinking that I really love how we can all grapple with such weighty issues and still be loving with each other.

I've not done a much reading on the topic of war and I'm aware I have much to learn.

Is is just to protect yourself, your family, your country from harm?

If so, and I believe it is, isn't defense more than just a preparation for war?

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Is it just to protect yourself, your family, your country from harm?

If so, and I believe it is, isn't defense more than just a preparation for war?

One doesn't have to be believe in God to wrap one's head around the idea that, as a species, we are going to have to adapt to another way of living together as human beings if we are to survive. The Evolutionist as well as the Creationist/Fundamentalist have equal reasons to 'evolve'. The Evolutionist understands that we are moving further and further away from war-like activities (we don't need to steal other peoples stuff, kill or occupy other countries to survive) and the Creationist/Fundamentalist who is worth his/her salt sees that love/compassion is the only law. All else is madness. There is nothing to be gained by attack, whatever form it takes.

If you live by the sword you die by the sword.

Action. Reaction.

Is there a 'spiritual' equivalent to Newtonian Law? I would like to think so. That's what nonviolence is all about, isn't it? But barring anything spiritual, there are better reasons to live than via armies, war and defense. It's the poverty of imagination that's telling in that kind of thinking.

We can do better.

[NathanATX]

I think we should be working towards that kind of evolution, but it hasn't happened yet.

Do we just allow someone to come and victimize us, our family, our country? Isn't suffering without a purpose against the precepts of non-violence?

On another note... I just watched this video about "right to serve" & DODT...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ZwThYwvXA