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#1
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I've always wondered what happens in the brain when one speaks in tongues. And lo and behold, there is an article in this morning's paper.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/he...=1&oref=slogin Quote:
What's it all add up to? You got me. But a few thoughts comes to mind. The matter of a drop of activity in the caudate suggests to this reader that (are the scientists being polite here?) the activity is itself is lacking something, meditation being, as the scientists put it, "a highly focused mental exercise", one that activates the part of the brain that has a measurable and beneficial effect. Fundamentalists are always talking about the Spirit taking them over. Considering the evidence here, is it any wonder that they also yammer about demons taking one over as well? It's even been suggested by fundamentalists that those who meditate open themselves up to demonic forces. Well. Guess what? It's those who are speaking in tongues that are not using all of their brains.
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Be the love you seek. |
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#2
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Here are the pics that accompanied the article.
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Be the love you seek. |
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#3
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I have always been kinda, well, for lack of a better word, wierded out by televagelist speaking in toungues, If you know anything about about altered states knows that they are faking it. But the other cases they seem to be whipped up in some kind of frezy. The preacher may not be feeling it, but their followers are.
It has similarities to Spirit Possesion in Vodou, where people are said to take on the personalites of the spirits being honored at the ceremony, But I would say that a Hougan( High priest) or a Mambo(High priestess) feels the "spirit" more that a televagelist preacher does. It's all very fascinating.
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If you can't love yourself, how the hell you gonna love somebody else. Can I get an Amen? Rupaul
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#4
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One of the few times I ever saw the gift of tongues present in a worship service was in a setting few people would think of - in a Quaker meeting for worship.
When thinking of speaking in tongues, most people think of the exhuberant acts of the Pentecostals. This was not the case in this Quaker meeting based on silence that I attended on Easter Sunday in 1983. At one point in the service, a woman got up and began to speak in a melodious voice; she did not raise her voice, but spoke in normal tones. I did not understand the words she spoke. Yet, the words seemed to be positive in their energy. After the woman sat down, a few moments passed. A gentleman across the room rose and said in a quite voice "I have been given the interpretation". He proceeded to offer up words of encourgement to the meeting, which apparently had been dealing with something of great importance of late, and many of the members were weary. Again, as he spoke, I felt positive affirmation that the message was from God and directed to those who worshipped in that place. I have to wonder - what would the brain scan of a Quaker who worshipped on the basis of centering down and waiting in the silence, and then was given the gift of tongues reveal? |
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#5
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I grew up Roman Catholic and always thought speaking in tongues had absolutely no basis. My ex-husband did a workshop in living in the Spirit and actually received the gift of tongues. I spoke with my priest about it, because I had only the highest respect for my ex-husband. He actually told me he had the gift and that not all charismatic Catholics were reactionary. He said there was a very progressive group of charismatics. Shortly after that, I got an opportunity to do a life in the Spirit workshop and really had hoped, I too, might learn the gift of tongues, but to no avail.
I recall telling my pastor, who I was very close to, of my disappointment and he blew me away when he said to me, Kara, the gift of tongues is one of the least of the Holy Spirit's gifts, believe me you have many, don't worry about speaking in tongues. That was good advice to me. And while I still sometimes think some who speak in tongues have ulterior motives, I also know that there are some, who like the Quaker woman are sharing their wonderful gift. All things are possible with God, of that I have no question. Kara |
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#6
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Kara- I started speaking in tongues at the age of 15 when my older sister (who had been converted and witnessed to me) placed her hands on my head and said a prayer. I remember very clearly having the belief that 1) something wonderful was going to happen 2) I could actually 'do this' and 3) the Holy Spirit was a real force of some sort and was going to give me something. I've experienced a change in many of the concepts/ideas that I held since that time (strictly speaking, Buddhists aren't concerned with 'God'). I can, however, still speak in tongues.
The cultural and religious context in which speaking in tongues happens is fascinating. We bring so many layered meanings to it. And it's not that I'm trying to knock it here, though I admit that the last line of my first post was provocative. I played with the assumption that 'more' is 'better', which, strictly speaking, isn't necessarily so. I think a scientist would say that the difference in brain scans simply indicates a difference. What does that difference mean? That's what I'd like to know. I'm hoping we can start to understand what we think we are doing from what is actually happening. Does the meaning we assign to speaking in tongues complicate matters? I think so.
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Be the love you seek. |
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#7
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I think it is important to remember that all the spiritual gifts are given for a purpose; sometimes they are given to us for the edification of our own spirits. At other times, spiritual gifts are given so that others may be ministered to and comforted.
I personally have never been given the gift of tongues, although on more than one occasion I have been present when it was given, and I felt the spirit of God bear witness to me that the gift was real and from God. I've also been present when tongues was practiced and through the gift of discernment, I was given to know that God was not the origin of the gift of tongues in those instances. There have been times when the Holy Spirit has directed me to go somewhere and I had no reason why - yet when I arrived, I found indeed there was a reason. I recall an elder of my aquaintance who was traveling for his work and while on the road felt a strong urging to take an exit off the highway he had never taken. He obeyed and ended up stopping at a house he did not know. He felt prompted to tell the woman and man who answered the door who is was and that he was an elder in our church. The man and woman cried out, because they had a child who was ill, but there was no congregation of the church near enough for them to ask the elders to offer the sacrament of administration to their child. As it happened, he had his oil with him and was able to administer to the child. So many times we crave to possess one gift when in fact we have been given those that God knows we need in order to grow and to also be a means of ministry to others. |
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#8
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Quote:
Kara |
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#9
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I recognize that we all need a 'frame' in which to talk about these things, and 'Holy Spirit' is as good as any other, but, speaking personally, the label one uses isn't as interesting to me as the activity itself.
There have been some striking experiences in my life, instances (mostly during or following a period of deep meditation) where I have felt 'led', connected to everything (and that the world was a good place) and where I felt as though I was touching a thread that ran throughout my life. Whom is doing the leading? I can't say that I actually 'know' (part of me wonders why we always think of this in terms of a 'who', which tends to externalize the experience somewhat), but I do know that enough of this sort of thing has left me with the observation that I have a choice to go with that inner 'voice', or not. It seems to me that if I ignore it, it stops talking in to me, which may amount to the same thing!
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Be the love you seek. |
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#10
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Daniel, I find the brain activity comparisons to be very interesting. I never have given it much thought that it could be that different. Wow, it certainly looks different!
I totally understand the concept of 'being led' - sometime it is very heavy on my heart to say or do something for others and other times, it isn't. I try to listen to my heart and act when I feel led and not necessarily act when I don't. I've always imagined it was the Holy Spirit putting it on me. Having been raised AG from a young age, I'm very familiar with others speaking in tongues, but as hard as I tried, it hasn't been a gift I've been blessed with. Although I too have felt God's presence at times when someone else was speaking, and haven't felt His presence at others. Last May while in Scotland with my aunt (who hasn't spoken to me in months - she is very condeming of my sexuality and relationship), who speaks in tongues although I don't necessarly feel the Lord's presence - anyway, she spoke to a group of Charismatic Catholics. They had a tongue speaking session where it appeared I was the only one not participating, and then the deal where she touched them and they fell. I was a little taken back at how disorganized it all felt, and did not feel the presence of God, but did feel like I wanted to leave. It was very strange for me, although I'm not in a position to say it wasn't God's work. My aunt told me once, she could pray with me and I could speak in tongues, I just have to start babbling baby talk and then it would come. Thought that was strange also. I don't believe we are all entitled to all gifts of the Spirit.
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"Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you earn it and win it in every generation." Coretta Scott King |
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#11
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tdogg- the story you've related closely parallels one that I remember meself.
I was about 16 or so and a South American pentacostal revivalist came to the church I was attending. They proceeded to have an 'upper room' service (it actually was in a hall that was on the second floor- but this is bedside the point!) and the revivalist went around the room praying for everyone. They all ended up on the floor, everyone but me. There I was standing in the middle of the room wondering why I didn't 'go down'. There must have been a hundred people laying on the floor. (Yes- I could speak in tongues with the best of them at this point.) It left me feeling strange- and yes- I thought as you did that somehow, the whole thing was 'off' in some way. It all seems forced somehow. Or course, the charismatic would say that I was holding out on God. My view, however, is that I was using my head in different way. A conscious, different way. it may be hubris on my part, but I think the brain scans may indicate this. It is any wonder that I was (a good deal later) interested in meditation, an activity which uses additional parts (I'm being polite here- I could atually say more ) brain itself?It's very interesting what your Aunt said about learning to get the 'gift'. My own rumination on the matter leads me to think about the process we all go through to learn to speak. There is the phase called 'echolalia'. Quote:
Quote:
Is glossalia in any way related to echolalia? At least in function? Is it an adult form of echolalia? Is speaking in tongues the scrambling of sounds already known, while echolalia is the sound of words being learned? Is this why when I speak in tongues it sounds like rhyming French? I wonder what they would find if they hooked me up. The same thing as in the scans posted here?
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Be the love you seek. |
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#12
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Quote:
That is the single most severe instance of being in a church and sensing the presence of evil. Now, I have seen the gift of tongues given in worship services in other churches (I recall a very powerful instance when I went to an Assembly of God service with a friend once where the presence of God was so strong that I don't see how anyone could not have felt it). So I do know it is a valid spiritual gift. But I do think it is only given when there is a reason for it to be given, and it should not be esteemed to the exclusion of the other gifts. |
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#13
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Quote:
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Diane Vera
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#14
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Quote:
This is a result of my study and practice in Buddhism which has influenced me heavily. I do not know, however, how a Buddhist monk might think about the matter, not having disussed the matter with one. Here's an interesting site on the phenomina. The info is taken from another site that is not currently active. http://www.meta-religion.com/Linguis...alia_today.htm Quote:
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What I meant to say was that since the meaning we assign to speaking in tongues is dependent on one's environment and culture, we should all take a harder look at ourselves and our thought processes regarding it. How do we know what we think we know? That's what interests my curious mind.
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Be the love you seek. Last edited by Daniel; 03-27-2007 at 10:51 AM. |
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#15
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Guys, please excuse my ignorance, but this is fascinating and I have a couple of questions:
Is each person's speaking-in-tongues language different/unique, or can one understand someone else? Or is it that the sounds are meant to transcend syntax and grammar the way we normally understand them? Daniel, when you use this gift of yours, are you aware of what you are saying...can you understand others? Has anyone attempted writing this down?
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#16
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Quote:
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Did it always sound like it does now? No. It didn't. It was a much more crude affair when I did it in my teens. This makes me suspicious, and leads me to conclude that the activity is, in essence, originates in the part of my brain that processes these sounds, but not in a 'intelligent' way. The article from the NYtimes on this thread, as well as the link here, seems to suggest this. No. I can't understand a word- or sound- it might be better said- that comes out of my mouth. Nor have I ever understood another person who spoke in tongues when I was in the AG church. But it is an electrifying experience when it happens in a service. Everything about the environment makes for great theatre. I don't mean btw, to imply a negative connotation here, since the threatical aspect of speaking in tongues in a public space for the benefit of all is, from my point of view, one of the primary reasons we attend church and other 'performances'. We hope to be moved and lifted up. Touched in some way by our participation. To feel renewed and refreshed. Great 'theatre' does that. There may ideed by something theraputic about the activity. But this may have more to do with beliefs about the activity rather than the activity itself. If so, that is a curious thing, is it not? If, as the quoted article suggests, that speaking in tongues is "a result of deep and meaningful spiritual exercise", then it seems to me that the the purpose and function of this excercise, as distinct from its assigned purpose and function, remains to be discovered.
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Be the love you seek. Last edited by Daniel; 03-28-2007 at 10:37 AM. Reason: edit for typo |
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#17
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Wow, Daniel a lot of food for thought in your posts!
I have attended churches where on occasion one would speak in tongues and another would subsequently speak in English, apparently interpreting the tongues message. I've heard from hard-core pentecostals that true in-tongue messages from the holy spirit will be accompanied by an immediate translation, otherwise they are false. I've also heard that it may or may not be accompanied by translation. None of this have I been able to get out of any Biblical reading on my own. It just depends on the denomination and the particular sect of the denomination, and then on who is in charge (pastor/preacher, etc.). The comparisons and possibilities of echolalia and glossolalia are pretty interesting. It would have been scientifically awesome if I could have hooked up everyone at the Charismatic catholic session including my aunt, to ekgs, emgs, and brain scans - wow, now there would be some fodder for discussion! All I know is, that session just somehow didn't seem right to me. Not in that I thought it was necessarily evil, more like they were just trying to hard to be spiritual. All over the place. But I've also experienced very controlled, very deliberate tongue-speaking in a pentecostal environment. I can't remember any instances of anyone recording these; however, at the CC session, my aunt did insist that I take pictures, which I felt were extremely intrusive and inappropriate, so after a couple shots, I put the camera down. All that said, I've pretty much given up attempting to do any tongue-speaking of my own. I dont' believe it's a gift I'm meant to have.
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"Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you earn it and win it in every generation." Coretta Scott King |
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#18
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By no means do I believe that tongues is something psycological. It is a supernatural gift. First, the bible talks about speaking in other tongues. (I will not go into all the sriptures at point, perhaps this is something that many of you out there can research) Secondly, you also have to take someones experience and compare it to what the scriptures tell us. When you read something in scripture, and it correlates with someone on a personal level, then thats when the word of God really comes alive and proves itself! I experienced the gift of tongues when I was about 21. I was shown the scriptures about speaking in tongues. I was extremely excited, being a new Christian. I wanted all that God had for me. I had no idea of what to expect. I had only seen others speaking in tongues, never thought much about it. I was curious.
Then these 2 ladies from church took me in some empty classroom within the church. They sat me down and explained the scriptures relating to tongues. They showed me the scriptures. Then they laid their hands on me and told me to just praise God and ask for the gift. I started to just praise God with my words of praise and thanksgiving like I had done many times before, just wanting to know more of God and receive more of Him. Then as I was praising God with all my might, all of a sudden, I felt this burning heat from my head to my toes. I started to sweat. It was like tornado of heat swirling through my body. I can't explain it. Then I uncontrollably started to laugh. I laughed so hard, my stomach muscles started to ache. Then I started to sob uncontrollably, then laugh again, then........ all of a sudden my English words became another language!! I just kept spewing these words, louder and louder. They came so naturally. I knew in my mind and my soul, that it was another language. I was not trying to babble or make something up, it just came out!! I was rolling my tongue with words that sounded hebrew, or arabic. I was in that room for about an hour, all the time, laughing, crying, sweating, shouting out words I have never spoken before! I know in my mind and my spirit, that was a gift from God. I received the gift of tongues. I can speak in tongues to this day at the drop of a hat. I don't practice speaking in tongues today, due to the fact that I am too ignorant of what it all means. For years I spoke freely in tongues in prayer groups. Now, I do not. I am scared. I know it is from God and I have a fear of abusing something that God has trusted me with. There is no manual to tell me when and where to speak this language. The bible tells us that it is to be interpreted by someone with the gift of interpretation, and I know no one at this place and time who can properly interpret my tongues. So, I do not practice it. Well, thats my story. I know it is from God. It doesn't mean I understand it, but His ways are not my ways!! -Matthew |
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#19
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I really appreciate hearing your experience. I have never heard anyone describe the experience so graphically before. It sounds truly wonderful. speaking in tongues has never been a part of my tradition. I grew up being taught that the gift of tongues was REALLY the gift of Pentecost (the ability to speak in your language and to be understood by others in theirs). I have a broader understanding now and believe that it IS in fact a spiritual gift as you describe it. I prayed for a while that I would be given the gift of tongues but that prayer was not answered in the affirmative. I'm fine with that. God has gifted me in many other ways.
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#20
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This is really fascinating stuff.
And...I do NOT mean this to sound negative...just a little scary. OK, maybe a lot scary. [Something new & different...therefore I must fear it. ]Seriously, though, is it a pleasant feeling? Can you stop if you wanted to? Does your demeanor or facial expression change (as it sounds like it must with you, Matthew)? Curious & confused, David
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