Ex-gays Stated Reasons to turn Straight

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by davidcom

Kara and Giancarlo -- you are both getting a little hot under the collar here. Giancarlo has been hurt and is angry with those who have hurt him. That doesn't make him unwelcome here. Or give him the right to jump on well meaning straight people with both feet.

If someone steps on my foot it hurts regardless of their intention. So there is no difference in terms of consequences between someone who stomps me maliciously and one who merely steps backwards and trods on me without realizing.

There is a HUGE moral difference between the two. The first is a violent abuser of my rights, the second is merely a fellow human being who doesn't yet see the harm that they are doing to me.


Thats why so many people understand homosexuality differently once someone they know comes out. Many parents, children, siblings, and friends have come to the truth by this route. I used to think this was a kind of hypocrisy but now I see that it is not... its just one of the ways that people learn ... not so much with their heads as with their hearts.

If we attack such people before they finish the learning process we do them and ourselves more harm than good.

Dear David: I don't believe I was getting hot under the collar, simply frustrated with Giancarlo who clearly doesn't understand the precepts of nonviolence and criticizes those who try to follow those steps.

Also, while there may be a moral difference, between those who deliberately attack us and those who don't, that's not up to us to define. Judgment lies with God, not us. Remember the section of the steps to nonviolence that tell us our advesaires motives are of no importance? Yes, it's hard. Nonviolence is hard. I struggle constantly not to demonize people. It is not something that comes easily to me.

Attacking anyone clearly doesn't lead us into a nonviolent solution. It just adds to the problem. If it came across as my attacking Giancarlo, I apologize. I just find it difficult to hear his consistent criticism given that the premise of Soulforce is nonviolence and nonviolence should mean we try not to demonize.

We clearly all fall short of the mark.

Kara

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Dear David: I don't believe I was getting hot under the collar, simply frustrated with Giancarlo who clearly doesn't understand the precepts of nonviolence and criticizes those who try to follow those steps.

Wow.

I'm not a violent person. I have never advocated violence towards anyone. I do not like war. These are some simple things. I am deeply offended and quite hurt that someone would accuse me of being violent. Of course I'm non-violent. I would never raise my fist to anyone. I may be very expressive in my views, but that's part of my culture.

Also, while there may be a moral difference, between those who deliberately attack us and those who don't, that's not up to us to define. Judgment lies with God, not us. Remember the section of the steps to nonviolence that tell us our advesaires motives are of no importance? Yes, it's hard. Nonviolence is hard. I struggle constantly not to demonize people. It is not something that comes easily to me.

I have no problem with one believing in any religion they want. I have absolutely NO problem with it. As long as they don't force it on me or anyone else. I'm a live and let live person. The only people I criticize are those Christian Conservatives who seek to put their agenda into legislation because that is detrimental to gays and lesbians, and their families. Criticism is necessary. I may be more vocal about it, but again I'm half Italian/half Spanish... and politics is something I'm always vocal about.

Attacking anyone clearly doesn't lead us into a nonviolent solution. It just adds to the problem. If it came across as my attacking Giancarlo, I apologize. I just find it difficult to hear his consistent criticism given that the premise of Soulforce is nonviolence and nonviolence should mean we try not to demonize.

I am giving solutions, and arguments. I am not giving violence. I would never use violence against a person. I request an apology. Consistent criticism does not equal violence. It equals the right to question the way some of which go about doing things. If I were to meet the President, I would be peaceful in asking him questions about some of the things he has done.

[Huggins293]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Oh for God's sakes, Giancarlo chill out! This website is committed to trying to follow the principles of nonviolence if that offends you then find another place to post. That's why I asked you what draws you to this forum, given that our basic understanding is that people are not our enemies, only ignorance is.

And if anyone is arrogant......

kara

Kara, I do understand soulforce's motto, but I share Giancarlo's frustration toward the unfair judgment by heterosexist toward gays and lesbians. He is very upset and angry at the reasons that are used to justify heterosexism. I know many of these people are good intentioned but they are using their flesh instead of common sense to make moral determinations. I think that is in part of Giancarlo's frustration.

His frustration should remind all of us how brutally harmful and insulting heterosexism is to gays and lesbains.

[Giancarlo]

I reiterate this message:

I am not giving violence. I would never use violence against a person. I request an apology.

I have endured a lot of abuse from people who claim they are christians, especially during the time I was in high school.

[sammy1980]

so, shouldn't the people really want to change, for whatever reason, be given the benefit of a doubt?

[Giancarlo]

At the worst, the "ex-gay" movement has caused people to commit suicide because these people can't "change". This is sickening. In fact it disgusts me so much I want such "therapy" banned.

[revtj]

I want to return to the original statements by 'ex-gays' if I may...

I think these people are asking fierce questions most of us asked at some point in coming out. I feel like I went through 'trying on' just about every answer they are giving, trying to reconcile homosexuality w/christianity.

It is painful to read some of the statements because I know it's a false premise based on bad information and yet also reflects a deep, sincere desire to be pleasing to God.

[pnggrad79]

Hugg,
I, as a lesbian, stated those reasons in various forms but came to the conclusion after fighting it for 12 years, that my reasons were full of crap. All the praying, denying, begging God to take it away, etc seemed like futile attempts at making myself be something I was not. I am a lesbian and proud of it. I am now happier than I have ever been and kick myself for not owning up to this sooner. These people are brainwashed by a fundamentalist establishment and are trying to talk themselves into being straight because of this inner turmoil. I was once there, so I can't really talk, but I believe in God's grace and it is the only factor that allowed me to come to the conclusion that I did-that being gay is ok-but I had to come out to myself and to God before that happened. God loves me lesbian and all, and no one can separate me from His love-not James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson, repentAmerica, Fred Phelps, or George W. Bush. I will commit to pray for people held in a straight bondage when they are really gay. That is an evil spirit of religion and not God's love. Thank God I am gay, and thank God he allowed me to figure that out.

[Eugene]

“I truly believe I can never be happy in a gay life and I’m positive that change is possible. This motivates me to seek change.”“

Well, I don't know any "ex-gays", but I used this reason on myself a lot before I came to terms with my homosexuality. The problem with the statement is "gay life". What is a "gay life"? As I used the phrase, it carried the meaning of an immoral, self-destructive, Tom of Finland-type lifestyle. And while I know that there are gay people who live that way, it isn't representative of "gay life". "Gay life" is as varied as gay men and the lives they choose for themselves.

As far as being "positive that change is possible" and assuming that means "change of orientation", I deluded myself with that for years. It led me through at least 2 theological models of sanctification (Keswick and Wesleyan) before I realized I was wasting my life waiting for a change that God wasn't going to work in me. "Just a little more prayer or just a little more faith" -- it is an endless pursuit that keeps happiness pushed far into the future.

[Huggins293]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Hugg,
I, as a lesbian, stated those reasons in various forms but came to the conclusion after fighting it for 12 years, that my reasons were full of crap. All the praying, denying, begging God to take it away, etc seemed like futile attempts at making myself be something I was not. I am a lesbian and proud of it. I am now happier than I have ever been and kick myself for not owning up to this sooner. These people are brainwashed by a fundamentalist establishment and are trying to talk themselves into being straight because of this inner turmoil. I was once there, so I can't really talk, but I believe in God's grace and it is the only factor that allowed me to come to the conclusion that I did-that being gay is ok-but I had to come out to myself and to God before that happened. God loves me lesbian and all, and no one can separate me from His love-not James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson, repentAmerica, Fred Phelps, or George W. Bush. I will commit to pray for people held in a straight bondage when they are really gay. That is an evil spirit of religion and not God's love. Thank God I am gay, and thank God he allowed me to figure that out.

I have one thing that has been boggling my mind. How can a former lesbian be so heterosexist. Lesley, a member of CARM claims to be an ex-lesbian but from her biggoted rhetoric, you could not tell. You would have thought she was another closed minded str8 person who was str8 forever. But she is not. Just read some of her comments on this board. The website is:

[Huggins293]

Originally Posted by revtj

It is painful to read some of the statements because I know it's a false premise based on bad information and yet also reflects a deep, sincere desire to be pleasing to God.

Unfortunately, good hearted heterosexists pity or have sympathy for gays for that reason.