Serious Question: Practicing Gay AND Christian??

[frankandcathy]

Well, the whole issue with Ted Haggard has gotten me to exploring on the web and I've come across a whole lot of articles from gay web sites...including Christian ones. This shocked me.

I'm befuddled. I don't understand. This isn't a question designed to cause anger but a fact-finding one.

How can you be a practicing homosexual (not repentant about it) and still be a Christian?

Is the issue just that you don't think homosexuality is a sin? If so, how can you not believe that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin? Do you believe those verses were just mistranslated? Do you feel there were just for that culture at that time?

Do you feel that an unrepentant sinner of any persuasion (liar, drunkard, adulterer, etc.) can also be a Christian?

Oh yeah, also: what is the difference between a gay Christian and just a gay person? What I mean is, how does this affect your behavior politically and sexually? Does that express itself in one monogomous relationship or not? What is the "standard" for being a gay Christian? What is okay? What is not okay? What about politically? Do you still speak out against other Christians (i.e. the "religious right?")

I am sure I just offended about a jillion people but I don't mean to. I just don't understand. I think that for far too long there has been a lot of name-calling from both the "religious right" and the gay community. I don't want to participate in that. I just want to understand where you're coming from.

I hope someone is brave enough to explain!

Thanks.

[Dash]

Man, there are so many articles and threads here for you to read if you are truly interested in learning what we think. Spend some time exploring before you grill us. It's no fun to start over from the beginning with every person who's just discovered that not everyone agrees with the anti-gay Christian perspective.

I'm glad you are here and glad you have been motivated to start looking into the issue.

Be sure also to read the forum guidelines so you don't get yourself a premature escort to the exit door.

Cheers!

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by frankandcathy

How can you be a practicing homosexual (not repentant about it) and still be a Christian?

Is the issue just that you don't think homosexuality is a sin? If so, how can you not believe that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin? Do you believe those verses were just mistranslated? Do you feel there were just for that culture at that time?

Do you feel that an unrepentant sinner of any persuasion (liar, drunkard, adulterer, etc.) can also be a Christian?

Oh yeah, also: what is the difference between a gay Christian and just a gay person? What I mean is, how does this affect your behavior politically and sexually? Does that express itself in one monogomous relationship or not? What is the "standard" for being a gay Christian?
I am sure I just offended about a jillion people but I don't mean to. I just don't understand. I think that for far too long there has been a lot of name-calling from both the "religious right" and the gay community. I don't want to participate in that. I just want to understand where you're coming from.

I hope someone is brave enough to explain!

Thanks.

Well, first of all as Dash said, welcome. Secondly, start off by reading a pamphlet we have on the website, that can be downloaded called, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality." That's for starts

Next, let me just say that you are so filled with heterosexual privelege that you feel justified in insulting others, because you think your orientation is superior to ours. IT'S NOT!!!! And just as I would hope you would learn about your white skin privelege and how that affects everything in your life you need to begin to recognize your heterosexuall privelege.

God doesn't care WHO we love, only HOW we love. I am a lesbian Roman Catholic christian, who understands that her particular faith is one of the leading advesaries in terms of religion based intolerance and bigotry.

There are times, when I could just scream at the arrogance that straight people have. But because I came out at a very late age, I was 38 at the time (some 30+ years ago), I also know what it's like to be blinded by that privelege. Truth be told I had issues with transgenders some 8 years ago, and it was a very dear friend who walked with me through my ignorance that got me passed it.

To assume that God blesses heterosexual relationships and condemns gay relationships just is inane.

I am a devout Christian. I try to place my life in God's hands daily, and trust that God will be there to show me the way. That trust has led me to also place my life in danger, because I've felt called to ministry.

My being oppressed in this society gives me a dependence on God that means I understand that everything in my life is GIFT (including my orientation).

I was blessed to be on part of the Equality Ride for a week in Texas, and while there got some excellent opportunities to truly dialogue with people who had the same mistaken impressions of LGBTs you entertain. It was an amazing opportunity, and one that continued upon my return because "coincidentally," a gentleman who works at a fundamentalist college in my area, asked me to help him understand. We've been meeting once a month for several months and it has been interesting, to say the least.

My prayer for you is an open heart, and a great deal of humility as you approach this. I'm guessing that some one close to you may be gay and that this will be an opportunity to truly reflect God's love in that person's life. There are no accidents. God placed you here in this forum for a reason, that much I'm sure.

Again, welcome, Kara

[Pablo Rafael]

Frank and Cathy,

Your question is not a bad one at all. When I first heard of gay Christians I shared your same concern. How can someone be gay and Christian? Aren't the two mutually exclusive?

This was a very important question to me because I am gay. I tried to deny it for a long time but had to come to the realization that I am gay and nothing was going to change that fact.

I would suggest that you download the text of Mel White'sWhat the Bible Says About Homosexuality. You can find it on the top of this web page. Go to "resources" and it is the first item in the menu. It is a quick download. It is consice and well written.

I would say yes, that the Bible has been misinterpreted over the years. There are only six passages which deal with homosexuality at all. The Old Testament passages all deal with the cermonial holiness laws that were abolished by Christ's death on the cross. The New testament passages, all except Romans 1, use terms that have been translated by some people as refering to homosexuality, but that translation is certainly not very solid. The word "Homosexual" was only translated as that in the later 20th century translations of the Bible.

If homosexuality is a sin, the question is why doesn't God specifically address it or at least speak about it more? I, like you, knew that it was a sin and a horrible sin; I had always hear that. I knew that the Bible taught that. But with further critical Bible study I realized (to my own great relief) that what I first believed was not the truth.

I could recommend the book Jesus , the Bible and Homosexuality by Jack Rodgers. (I'm not sure I have that title 100% correct. ) It is Biblical research by a Presbyterian theologian. He is not gay himself and has done unbiased study. It deals a lot with the Presbyterian Church but is of interest to all. I am a Catholic and got a lot of good scholarly information from The Church and the Homosexual by John Mc Neil. It was written in the 1970's, but is an excellent book. It deals a lot with the Catholic church which might not be of as much interest to non-Catholics.

If you are really interested in this topic, please research further. There are many examples in history when a prevailing view that was widely accepted at the time was rejecected by later generations. Many people said that slavery was supported by Scripture. Few people believe that now. People used the Bible to oppose women's sufferage. That idea has pretty much been discredited. Even Martin Luther used the Bible to prove that the heliocentric solar system proposed by Copernicus was wrong.

By the way, I am a conservative Christian who firmly believes that God leads us to lives of service and sexual purity. I believe in monogamous relationships. I think I am part of the majority of gays who do not believe in a lifestyle of immorality. I resent how gay individuals are portrayed by the media. A lot of that is the fault of individuals in the gay "subculture" who have abused their freedom for a life of immorality. Most of us are not like that. Just as heterosexuals should not be judged by the worst members of their group, neither should we.

Thanks for taking the effort to ask this question. Please explore further.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Zerbie]

Wow. I see you've opened the Extra Jumbo Family Size Can O' Worms, here.

That's okay. Welcome.

I found nothing offensive in your actual tone, although I wonder if you can see why Kara reacted with a degree of offense to the nature of the questions themselves? You touch a very raw and painful nerve with these questions, but you've also come to a very good place where most people are gentle, patient, and willing to engage. From the kinds of questions you ask, I have the impression you see 'gay people' as a monolithic and extremely different 'Other,' and that there must be some kind of Rule Book for being gay, if there are "standards" and all of that. I fault the society we were raised in for leading us to believe that there is a single monolithic "gay lifestyle" that all homosexuals belong to, like members of a secret club or something. Saying so is just as ridiculous as saying all heterosexuals adhere to some kind of "straight" standard, and are likewise all the same. Isn't that silly? We were all taught to believe that silliness - gay people were taught it when they were growing up too, and had to learn differently - just as you are now doing.

As for a "standard" for being gay and Christian, I'd say there are as many standards for that as there are gay Christians. Reconciling one's affectional orientation with a traditional, conservative Christianity tends by its nature to take one off of beaten paths to forge for oneself. But for supporting examples and details, you will have to ask one of the gay Christians here.

I suggest you search through the forums here for previous discussions of religion, and reconciling one's religion and sexuality - there was even a poll about just that, but it was about a year ago, so you will have to scroll through the old pages to find it.

I've read some of the books and pamphlets others have suggested above, and I second their recommendations. Please follow through and read them - they are very accurate depictions of what millions of people go through.

Thanks for being brave enough to ask.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Wow. I see you've opened the Extra Jumbo Family Size Can O' Worms, here.

That's okay. Welcome.

I found nothing offensive in your actual tone, although I wonder if you can see why Kara reacted with a degree of offense to the nature of the questions themselves?
Thanks for being brave enough to ask.

Dear Zerbie: I think it's really important that we call people when they say something offensive. I think we gay folks tend to be way too apologetic at times. As an example, how would you respond to someone going into say the NAACP website, saying something like, wow do you folks really think you're equal to white people? help me understand.

I, do understand where they are coming from but there is an arrogance that needs to be acknowledged.

There was an organization back in the 50's called the Catholic Interracial Councils. They had sit down dinners with white and black families. Clearly, the only way for white people to come to those dinners was in a place of humility and understanding that they had no idea what life was like for black folks on a day to day basis.

My response to Frank and Cathy was with that understanding of how we begin to learn how a group of peoples live are affected by their oppression.

I'm not angry, I agree that it was a very courageous step. And I do salute them for that.

Kara

[BruceChris]

I believe that you are asking an honest question. You could probably use a lot of information. That conservative Christians try to believe that homosexuality is a "choice", because for them it is an article of faith. That they refuse to believe millions of people who say "I was BORN this way"

Google gay Christian, or Christian gay, and read what's out there. There are millions of hits out there. Read

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1536

Meet some of our people here, and read our postings. Read

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1074 and try to see that we are all about friendship, and not all about sex.

God loves you, and we have found that God loves us.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Frank and Cathy,

Others have said it very well: there is a great deal iof information on this site in terms of threads dealing with your questions as well as specific issues you might have.

However, your questions are real, I have no doubt of that. Putting aside the issue of whether your questions have been offensive, I would like to laud you for having the wherewithall to visit this sight and voice your concerns.

Right off the top of my head, I would like to respond with this: gay Christians don't see themselves as having to justify their existence any more than you do.

The issue here is not the status of gay people and how they fit into your vision of the world, but rather, who they are in and of themselves (this goes both ways btw). I know this may sound overly simple, but if you were friends with a range of gay persons- this would make sense to you. It's all too easy for us to get all 'tribal' with each other. This faction. That faction. This religion. That religion. Color. Nationality. Sexuality. At some point, we have to learn to see past our divisions and drop our need to be right about everything.

No. I don't think being gay is a sin- anymore that I think being black or a jew is a sin- or making a ton of money is a sin.

I have a husband (we were married in Toronto a few years ago) and if I were to sin big time, it would be to 'step out' on my guy when, in fact, I have consciously and verbally agreed not to do that. That is my personal agreement with him (not every gay or straight person feels this way about their partner btw!) But that is how I would see myself: how others would see me is beside the point. As far as I am concerned, it is about integrity- doing what one says one is going to do.

I grew up something of a fundamentalist, but would not call myself that now, having had many life experiences which lead me in another direction. This has been a very good thing actually. An expansion rather than a throwing away of parts of myself.

Gay Christian? Yes. There are such animals. And Gay Buddhists. Gay Catholics. Gay Methodists. Gay Hindus. Gay Sufi's. Gay Everything. Name it and we are that.

I think you will find that diversity is the constant here. If this is a problem for you, then I would suggest that gay people aren't the source of that discomfort, but rather, your conception of what is- or should be. I think you may find that you are going to have to expand somewhat yourself. The joke (it's not funny actually) is that when gay people come out of the closet, often, someone that they know goes in. Dealing with these issues can be either very exciting or very terrifying. Often both.

Ok. Why do you ask all this?

Know anybody gay?

Is your concern abstract or personal? If it is personal, the learning curve is steeper, but well worth the climb. If abstract, these issues may just roll around in your brain and produce a good deal of cognitive dissonance. That's no fun.

I'm glad you are hear to get to know us, at least in cyberland. But I would encourage you to get to know some gay people in the flesh (I bet you probably already know a few people at your church- but they might not be out to you). A great deal can be learned therein which cannot be expressed here. Real understanding comes from real connection- not just from moving the thoughts in our heads around like furniture.

Oh. The only thing I practice is my scales when I warm up to sing.

Wink. Wink.

[keltic63]

Frank and Cathy,

Gay Christian here!

and like Daniel, I practice the piano, the other stuff, I'm pretty good at.

When I opened this thread I thought "here we go again." Yes, as you can tell, we've done this before. Is there some reason we need to do this again? Do you question other people that you consider to be sinners, in this same fashion?

Originally Posted by frankandcathy

I am sure I just offended about a jillion people but I don't mean to. I just don't understand. I think that for far too long there has been a lot of name-calling from both the "religious right" and the gay community. I don't want to participate in that. I just want to understand where you're coming from.

I hope someone is brave enough to explain!

Let's look at this section of your post for a moment. Yes, I find your post offensive, but I'm sure that it was not your intention to offend. That last line, about someone being "brave enough" to explain, is very nearly a challenge, like drawing a line in the sand and saying "I dare you." Is that what you are doing here?
Many lgbt people would not respond with anger and name-calling if the religious right did not cast the first stones. Christian leaders regularly make offensive, judgmental pronouncements about homosexuals through their tv shows, websites, direct mailings, and any other outlet they can. Think about Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and James Dobson. According to them, we're responsible for hurricanes, economic problems, the rise of witchcraft, and even 9-11. I do a lot of reading, but I don't recall any lgbt writers making any of those kinds of claims against straights or Christians. I'm not saying that awful things aren't said, I'm just saying that most often I believe it is a reaction to something said about us.

There's plenty here to help you out. I think this Letter is an excellent start to understanding how someone could be both gay and christian.

and finally, I am willing to engage in a discussion with you. I do this often. we can do it here, in private messages, or we can exchange emails if you'd like. if you want discussion, here I am.

Steve

[scott snedeker]

Dear Frank and Cathy

I am reminded of a Dutch proverb: "Once you step out of the door, You already have a large part of the journey behind you."

Your venture on to this site and asking this question warms my heart and fuels my building optimism the world is becoming a kinder place at a pace that overwhelms me with joy!

Because you are taking the first step to understanding and thus breaking down barriers to love, you are furthering the truly Christian spirit of universal love! Universal love, The simplest and most accurate answer to the Question: "What would Jesus DO?"


You Honor me with your request because I can feel the love in your asking. So I will answer genuinely.


Imagine the time in your adolescence when you were discovering your sexual awareness. Now Imagine being told that your feelings of sexual attraction make you a worthless deviant because you feel them toward the same sex. So to survive you hide this secret and stifle the growth of your emerging dentity and learn to hate yourself.

This I Fear is psychological child abuse at its worst.

Then imagine the miracle of courageously overcoming this self loathing
imposed by your past abuse. This epiphany restores your sense that you are a person deserving of happiness, equal worthiness and love. A hard fought internal struggle won by myself and many other gay people.

Acceptance and affirmation of your own NATURE is the foundation of Spirituality

Some say being gay is a choice. They are half right. You can choose to be
true to your nature and experience passion, romance and love, all essential
parts of a balanced normal life. Or you can falsely pretend to be attracted to the opposite sex and live an empty passionless lie.

There is no verse in the Bible that can leap off the page and harm anyone. The only harm comes from what some one might do to you in the name of their God. Violence in spirit or material form is not God's will. If a verse causes you to feel fearful, negatively, or angry toward yourself or others, then you are just not ready at this time to understand it. Select another verse that makes you feel love toward yourself and others for this is God's message that you are ready to understand.

God wishes us to love one another (man or woman) so that he can share in our joy!

Scotty

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by keltic63

Frank and Cathy,

Gay Christian here!

and like Daniel, I practice the piano, the other stuff, I'm pretty good at.

When I opened this thread I thought "here we go again." Yes, as you can tell, we've done this before. Is there some reason we need to do this again? Do you question other people that you consider to be sinners, in this same fashion?



Let's look at this section of your post for a moment. Yes, I find your post offensive, but I'm sure that it was not your intention to offend. That last line, about someone being "brave enough" to explain, is very nearly a challenge, like drawing a line in the sand and saying "I dare you." Is that what you are doing here?
There's plenty here to help you out. I think this Letter is an excellent start to understanding how someone could be both gay and christian.

and finally, I am willing to engage in a discussion with you. I do this often. we can do it here, in private messages, or we can exchange emails if you'd like. if you want discussion, here I am.

Steve

Dear Steve: I'm so glad you recommended "Letter to Louise," it is one of the best documents, I've seen. I often send it to folks who are questioning whether they can be gay and christian. But I hadn't read it in a while, and it really is one of the best things I've seen and worth rereading periodically.

I hope Cathy & Frank that you are finding this thread helpful to your process.

Kara

[frankandcathy]

Well, I just checked my e-mail and someone has asked me to reply to all the responses that I've received on this post.

I haven't, of course, had a chance to read any of the documents yet because I just now read the replies but I would like to respond so far and then add more later after reading.

I am sorry that several people were offended. I just didn't want to be another right-wing Christian who throws stones at "them" without ever asking "them" what their side of the story is.

Would I get on a black faith-based web site and ask similar questions? Yes. I think I would. I might do that, in fact. (I often wonder why a majority of black Christians are democrats. I really want to know why because as far as I can see, their basic moral values don't gel with the democratic party. But there's obviously a reason. I have a theory that all people vote more with their pocketbook than with their conscience...but that's another story.)

I think you are correct that their is no "gay Christian" community absolute cohesion just as there is no "straight Christian" community absolute cohesion. There could be a set of basic values defined but each church/person may disagree with them on some level. I was hoping to get a basic set of values (as an "evangelical Christian" might be able to give a basic set of values for evangelicals). And I think in some ways I did and in some I didn't. But at least I learned something!

I've heard this said before: in the homosexual community, one's sexual orientation is considered a part of who you are just as is your personality, your eye color, etc. The heterosexual community obviously feels that way about THEMSELVES but not about homosexuals. It's something we choose to dissect out of people and make it separate so that we can "hate the sinner and love the sin." I think that this is where a great rift has occurred because this is a mental block that cannot really be overcome. How well can anyone really respond to someone who is saying, "I really like you...except for your eye color. Will you get colored contacts for me? I prefer blue eyes." They may say that they love you, but...that doesn't feel like love, does it?

The comment about "is anyone brave enough" was certainly not some kind of line in the sand. I have much better things to do with my time than to try to incite a riot against myself on a gay web site. What I meant by that is, "Is anyone willing to take the time to explain something to someone who has no clue about it." The answer was a resounding, "Yes." Thank you.

I see that the word, "practicing" is somehow not kosher. Please have mercy on a white, religious, right-winger from the burbs who is not up on the latest lingo. I am finding myself going back and deleting certain words and using more "politcally correct" ones so have patience, please. I'm trying here.

Do I know any gay people (that are out)? Not really. I have a grocery store clerk and a service woman whom I think are gay. That's about it. What I do have is a heart to reach people with the love of Christ and if I see that there is a big rift between the church and a certain segment of people, I feel I want to try to understand why so I can help if possible.

Since I am trying to be truly open and truly honest (and knowing that I am probably going to have shots taken at me anyway because no matter how hard I try NOT to be offensive, I will probably seem so), I will tell you something that strikes me right off the bat.

I think one of the things that I've noticed just in reading some of the posts is the attitude of "I have a right." Now, before you kick me off or stone me, let me say that the Christian community at large is just as guilty of this.

With the gay community it may be, "I have a right to be gay, get married, live my life the way I want, etc., etc., etc."

With the Christian community at large it may be, "I have a right to live in a country where marriage is defined MY way, my children don't have to have gay teachers, my values are put into law as the norm, etc., etc., etc."

So, this is the question: Was this the attitude of Christ before He was asked to lay down His life? Wasn't his whole gig one of "I'm here to do the will of my father?" Wasn't Christ asked to not only sacrifice any sexual desires he may have had (did he have any? different topic) but also any ideas about having the political system work in his favor or to have it produce morality as he saw fit?

Isn't this the real problem with ALL humanity? We're really into our "rights" but not really into laying down our lives for others?

Hey, I know this is a tough pill to swallow. I've been married almost 10 years and I can tell you that to lay down my life on a simple thing like "Can you PLEASE pick up your own socks off the floor" is a struggle. To be asked to set aside your SEXUALITY or your political views in order to love others is monumental. It's not easily done. Some would say that it's impossible or unnecessary.

I'm not really saying what I think anyone should do. I just wonder if the attitude (on both sides) of my "rights" is helping or hurting the cause of unity in the body of Christ?

What will make more impact with you? A straight Christian who holds up banners declaring you to be sinful and demanding their "right" to live in a country where marriage is one man and one woman or a straight Christian who chooses to use their time loving you and serving you instead?

What will make more impact with me (and other straight people)? A gay person who holds rallies demanding their "right" to be married or a gay person who reaches out to me by offering love and service?

Look, all I'm saying is that for three decades we've been at war over who is "right," who should have more or less "rights," what God says is, "right," and who should get "right" with God. Maybe it's time for all of us as individuals to set aside our "rights" and our "offenses" and try to really, really love and serve one another...knowing that only the Holy Spirit can convict you or me of sin (whether it be whom you choose to have sex with or how you speak to those different than you).

I have personally made a commitment to get to know those around me who are gay (or whom I think are gay). I have committed not to just see them as "that gay guy" I try to avoid at the store. I have committed to try and love and serve the gay people around me just as I have committed to love and serve the poor, the black, the Asian, the Mexican, the rich, and the muslim people around me.

God has put a consuming fire in me: to reach others with His love and to serve them in a real way. It is not my job to convict them of whatever sin I think they may have. That's God's job and the only way I can really influence it is to show MORE love...not less.

Whew! That was long and sort of didactic. Sorry! Well, I have to admit, I'm going to hit the "submit reply" button and I'm cringing a bit.

I will try to go read the recommended items right now!

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by frankandcathy

Well, I just checked my e-mail and someone has asked me to reply to all the responses that I've received on this post.

I haven't, of course, had a chance to read any of the documents yet because I just now read the replies but I would like to respond so far and then add more later after reading.

I am sorry that several people were offended. I just didn't want to be another right-wing Christian who throws stones at "them" without ever asking "them" what their side of the story is.

Would I get on a black faith-based web site and ask similar questions? Yes. I think I would. I might do that, in fact. (I often wonder why a majority of black Christians are democrats. I really want to know why because as far as I can see, their basic moral values don't gel with the democratic party. But there's obviously a reason. I have a theory that all people vote more with their pocketbook than with their conscience...but that's another story.)

Maybe it's time for all of us as individuals to set aside our "rights" and our "offenses" and try to really, really love and serve one another...knowing that only the Holy Spirit can convict you or me of sin (whether it be whom you choose to have sex with or how you speak to those different than you).

I have personally made a commitment to get to know those around me who are gay (or whom I think are gay). I have committed not to just see them as "that gay guy" I try to avoid at the store. I have committed to try and love and serve the gay people around me just as I have committed to love and serve the poor, the black, the Asian, the Mexican, the rich, and the muslim people around me.

God has put a consuming fire in me: to reach others with His love and to serve them in a real way. It is not my job to convict them of whatever sin I think they may have. That's God's job and the only way I can really influence it is to show MORE love...not less.

Whew! That was long and sort of didactic. Sorry! Well, I have to admit, I'm going to hit the "submit reply" button and I'm cringing a bit.

I will try to go read the recommended items right now!

Dear Frank & Cathy: I can see you're really trying, but you really don't have ANY comprehension of the privelege you operate under. You said you'd be willing to give up your rights, but the truth is you can't even comprehend what that would mean. It would mean you'd have no say over each other's health care. That if Cathy died (being the mother of the children), you Frank would have no rights to them. If one of you died, the other person would have to find a new home because the home you bought and paid for together and shared for years would no longer automatically be yours.

There are so many priveleges that go along with being white, middle class and heterosexual, that it would take almost forever to identify them. So I won't even try. But your attempt to recognize them will be some of what will help break down the gaps between us. We experience these priveleges denied us on a regular basis.

And for the record, there is a huge difference between you as white folks going on a black website asking why blacks would vote for Democrats then you're coming on this website, asking the question how can you be gay and Christian. Part of that being the horrendous history most of us (who are Christians) have had in being asked that question time and time again and for the most part being told we can't be. The more compreable question of going on a black website, would be something like asking them why they think they have the right (or capacity) to vote. You see this is more compreable because that was part of the oppression black people faced some 50 years ago and people died for that right. Many still face them today.

It's hard, I know, to take on a different mind set, and I really hear you struggling with it. As a white woman who raised a black child, I had to learn a different mind set. As a lesbian, when learning about transgenders, I had to learn a different mindset. All of this is to say, I'm glad to hear you're writing and cutting and rewriting, trying to learn how to express your feelings without creating more pain for us. I do appreciate that.

Part of the work I see for my own life as an out lesbian involved in ministry within my Catholic parish, is to help educate about the issues of heterosexual privelege as well as white skin privelege because that also so deeply affects my family.

I'm really glad you're here. I'm really glad we're having this conversation, because it's such an important one and we have to stop talking at each other and begin the listening process. But as a word of caution, as a woman who has been out as a lesbian for over 30 years, there probably is nothing I haven't heard already, so it gets to be a bit frustrating when straight folks think that if they just say this one thing it will change everything. And poof suddenly, I'll turn straight

What I know in my heart is that my orientation is a GIFT FROM GOD. It is a gift that I celebrate, and i'm not really looking for tolerance, I'll be honest. I want to celebrate that gift just as openly and honestly as you celebrate your orientation.

Kara

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by frankandcathy

Well, I just checked my e-mail and someone has asked me to reply to all the responses that I've received on this post.

I suspect you checked the box that subscribes you to this thread. every time someone posts, you'll get an email.

I haven't, of course, had a chance to read any of the documents yet because I just now read the replies but I would like to respond so far and then add more later after reading.

you did a pretty good job responding. it's a nice long post. I'm going to cut some of it out just to make this post a bit briefer, and to respond to certain things in your post.

I am sorry that several people were offended. I just didn't want to be another right-wing Christian who throws stones at "them" without ever asking "them" what their side of the story is.

as I said, while some of it was offensive, I don't believe that was your intention, so "no harm, no foul."

I've heard this said before: in the homosexual community, one's sexual orientation is considered a part of who you are just as is your personality, your eye color, etc. The heterosexual community obviously feels that way about THEMSELVES but not about homosexuals. It's something we choose to dissect out of people and make it separate so that we can "hate the sinner and love the sin." I think that this is where a great rift has occurred because this is a mental block that cannot really be overcome. How well can anyone really respond to someone who is saying, "I really like you...except for your eye color. Will you get colored contacts for me? I prefer blue eyes." They may say that they love you, but...that doesn't feel like love, does it?

Why do some straight people, in particular, very conservative Christians, ignore respected scientists, doctors, psychologists, and valid & reliable scientific studies that indicate homosexuality is not a choice? They also apply a double standard, by allowing their orientation to be something inborn, or a trait determined by genetics, while denying that same science to lgbt people.

I see that the word, "practicing" is somehow not kosher. Please have mercy on a white, religious, right-winger from the burbs who is not up on the latest lingo. I am finding myself going back and deleting certain words and using more "politcally correct" ones so have patience, please. I'm trying here.

Mildly offensive, which is why the jokes were made. The underlying tone of using the phrase "practicing homosexual" implies choice. No one here will tell you that they chose to be gay. The term "practicing" is funny because, well, we think we're pretty good at being homosexual, there's no need to practice!

Do I know any gay people (that are out)? Not really. I have a grocery store clerk and a service woman whom I think are gay. That's about it.

This is the one that always gets me. Estimates of the number of homosexuals in the population run from 3-10% Allowing a number from the most conservative estimate, that would still make 3 gay or lesbian people in the 100 you see on any given day (say, shopping, commuting, church, community gatherings, the movie theater, etc. ) If you can name 100 people, somewhere between 3 and 10 are gay. YOU just aren't aware of it. My question about that is "why aren't you aware of that?" If it's because they are closeted, that's fine. But what if they're just not willing to come out to you? Is there something you've carelessly stated that leads them to believe you can't be trusted with that information? Have you inadvertantly pushed someone away? Because I don't know you, I can't make that judgment about you, but I think it's worth thinking about.

What I do have is a heart to reach people with the love of Christ and if I see that there is a big rift between the church and a certain segment of people, I feel I want to try to understand why so I can help if possible.

that's noble and loving. but if it's because you think gay people need the love of Christ because they are gay, you're going to get nowhere. People need the good news of Christ because ALL have sinned. I'm a sinner, but homosexuality isn't my sin, because being gay isn't a sin.

Since I am trying to be truly open and truly honest (and knowing that I am probably going to have shots taken at me anyway because no matter how hard I try NOT to be offensive, I will probably seem so), I will tell you something that strikes me right off the bat.

I think one of the things that I've noticed just in reading some of the posts is the attitude of "I have a right." Now, before you kick me off or stone me, let me say that the Christian community at large is just as guilty of this.

With the gay community it may be, "I have a right to be gay, get married, live my life the way I want, etc., etc., etc."

I don't recall anyone in the gay community ever saying that they have a right to be gay. This would indicate a choice.

With the Christian community at large it may be, "I have a right to live in a country where marriage is defined MY way, my children don't have to have gay teachers, my values are put into law as the norm, etc., etc., etc."

and in this paragraph we see the problem, right? someone's perceived rights are intruding on the right's of others.

So, this is the question: Was this the attitude of Christ before He was asked to lay down His life? Wasn't his whole gig one of "I'm here to do the will of my father?" Wasn't Christ asked to not only sacrifice any sexual desires he may have had (did he have any? different topic) but also any ideas about having the political system work in his favor or to have it produce morality as he saw fit?

Isn't this the real problem with ALL humanity? We're really into our "rights" but not really into laying down our lives for others?

Are you suggesting that gay & lesbian people should stop being gay & lesbian out of love for their more conservative Christian brothers and sisters?

Hey, I know this is a tough pill to swallow. I've been married almost 10 years and I can tell you that to lay down my life on a simple thing like "Can you PLEASE pick up your own socks off the floor" is a struggle. To be asked to set aside your SEXUALITY or your political views in order to love others is monumental. It's not easily done. Some would say that it's impossible or unnecessary.

some Christians do put this onto the homosexual, but not the heterosexual. In other words, some denominations claim that homosexual people are of "sacred worth" etc. but that homosexual actions are sinful, therefor homosexuals must live celibate lives. Yet, this is never required of heterosexuals. Is physical love truly meant to be experienced ONLY by heterosexual couples? Would it be better if gay people tried to find a person of the opposite sex for the sharing of sexual love and release of sexual energy, even if they didn't "love" each other?

I'm not really saying what I think anyone should do. I just wonder if the attitude (on both sides) of my "rights" is helping or hurting the cause of unity in the body of Christ?

I think it's less about "rights" and more about controlling the things one doesn't understand. There is fear about homosexuals. There is fear about what will happen if gays and lesbians are allowed to marry. I happen to know that some of the gay people on this board are married, legally, to each other. It's a gay marriage. Yet, this gay marriage doesn't make straight married couples less married.

What will make more impact with you? A straight Christian who holds up banners declaring you to be sinful and demanding their "right" to live in a country where marriage is one man and one woman or a straight Christian who chooses to use their time loving you and serving you instead?

Christians demanding to live in a country where marriage is one man and one woman are not serving and loving anyone but themselves, and others who agree but their boundaries. Preventing me from marrying my partner and enjoying the 1,500 benefits bestowed on married couples by benefit of the marriage license, is not loving and serving, it is excluding, ostracizing, and hurting to gay & lesbian couples.

What will make more impact with me (and other straight people)? A gay person who holds rallies demanding their "right" to be married or a gay person who reaches out to me by offering love and service?

does my ability to marry the man I love deprive you or other straight people of anything?

Look, all I'm saying is that for three decades we've been at war over who is "right," who should have more or less "rights," what God says is, "right," and who should get "right" with God. Maybe it's time for all of us as individuals to set aside our "rights" and our "offenses" and try to really, really love and serve one another...knowing that only the Holy Spirit can convict you or me of sin (whether it be whom you choose to have sex with or how you speak to those different than you).

if nothing else, you've got to learn about the "choice" argument.

I have personally made a commitment to get to know those around me who are gay (or whom I think are gay). I have committed not to just see them as "that gay guy" I try to avoid at the store. I have committed to try and love and serve the gay people around me just as I have committed to love and serve the poor, the black, the Asian, the Mexican, the rich, and the muslim people around me.

That's good to hear. Hi, I'm Steve!

Whew! That was long and sort of didactic. Sorry! Well, I have to admit, I'm going to hit the "submit reply" button and I'm cringing a bit.

come on. it wasn't that bad, was it?

[andrewlittle]

FrankandCathy,

I'm going to add some comments from the point of view of a straight ally. I have been where you are - evangelical, white, male, privileged to beat the band, and clueless about people who aren't just like me. That doesn't mean I didn't care - just that I had not taken the time to try to look through someone else's eyes at the culture we live in. You can never accomplish that feat entirely, but the effort is well worth it.

First, the suggestions that you actually meet, talk with - really get to know as people - some GLBT folk is essential. BUT! Be very careful. This is something you are trying to understand - the benefit, initially at least, is for you. It is a very privileged position when we expect someone we exercise power over to teach us why it's wrong. That, in and of itself, can be considered oppressive. It is imperative that you walk, talk and question humbly and in full respect of the fact that you are asking to trespass on someone's personal property - their possibly traumatic experiences of being considered "less than human" and certainly "less than a child of God" - their experiences of having to claim value when culture says they have none.

Kara's reminder about social location is critical to learning about 'others'. That is where you are - quite possibly through no fault of your own - but you are seeing yourself as normal and others as - well - other than normal. That's what 'other' is all about - it translates to "not like me".
Society has taught you that YOU are the picture of the social norm - you are white (dominant trait), male(dominant trait), heterosexual (d.t.), presumably middle class or above (d.t.) and God knows how many other ways of looking at the way you match the norms of society. You can tell you're a member of dominant culture when you don't have to question why you're different.

Now, this is probably a little offensive. Imagine, then, how offensive it is to someone who cannot just identify themselves as you do - as a person - they have to have initials (GLBT) or racial descriptors (Black American, Asian American, etc.) or any number of classifying descriptions that give some sense of belonging to a group. If all people were accepted as simply people, these self-identities would not be necessary.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be to eat with some GLBT folk who are willing to assist you in learning - of course, that would require that you were absolutely honest about why you wanted to meet in the first place. Christ ate with people who didn't line up with dominant Jewish norms. He could eat with anybody and accomplish eating with a sinner, since we all qualify. He ate with people who were excluded or rejected or derided by the culture around them. Then he didn't set out to learn about them - he simply was with them, saw them as fully people, and engaged them where and how they were.

You have nothing to fear, except the possibility of transformation. Maybe you could even ask questions like, "Why do people like me think we're so special?" "In what way have people like me hurt you?" "How can I be a friend?"

Above all else, keep trying.

[BruceChris]

It was probably my personal message, which first shows up on your end as an email, that you are referring to:

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"We hope to engage you in a continuing and respectful discussion"

And I would appreciate it very much if you could respond to the postings in your thread, at least after having done some additional reading, or research. Please, I feel that we need some input from you (two) so that we can focus our responses better.

Peace, and God's Love, Bruce Chris

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I felt that I, and probably most of us need to have a sufficient understanding of who you are, where you are coming from, what your beliefs are, and what exactly you are trying to ask. I have to cling to the belief that there has to be regular input from both sides, to have a dialogue. I do not in any way expect that you could have read even a fraction of what is out there, I was just hoping that you might have read some, plus what we have posted here. I apologise if I have in any way made you feel pressured. I do thank you for getting back to us, and I pray that our conversation can go on with respect, a minimum of judgement, and even some Christian love, as we get to know each other better.

Peace, and God's Love, and I truly hope with humility, Bruce Chris

[Pablo Rafael]

Frank and Cathy,

I knew when I first saw your posting that you would get a lot of responses. I also knew that the responses would not always be positive. You must forgive us if we are a little sensitive. The lesbian/gay individual has had to suffer with discrimination from society, in the workplace and from family members. We are fighting battle for acceptance and the opposition against us grows ever more vicious year by year.

I think the key question is, "Is homosexuality a sin?" I would say no. I say this as a person who for most of his life thought it was. I am a person whe believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God and does not think that God's Word can be changed to suit a person's desires. I would ask you why you think it is a sin? Most people point to the sin of Sodom, but nowhere does the Bible say the sin of Sodom was homosexuality. In fact Jesus states otherwise. I won't go into a whole explanation of Bible passages; the recommendations you have been given will do a better job of it.

Now what if homoesexuality is a sin? (Which I don't think it is) Just for the sake of discussion, I will play the devil's advocate.
Here is a quote from Billy Graham, "I think the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin. But the Bible also teaches that pride is a sin, jealousy is a sin, and hate is a sin, evil thoughts are a sin, and so I don't think homosexuality should be chosen as the overwhelming sin that we are doing today."
You made a comment about "unepentant" sin. Don't all of us have unrepentant sin? I do things I know are wrong, and I know that I am going to do it again. I act selfishly; I know it's wrong. I'm sorry I do it, but I know I will continue. On this side of eternity we all live in sin, but that sin is wonderfully erased by God's grace shown to us on the cross. Even if a person is still convinced to believe that homosexuality is a sin, one can't elevate it to the supreme sin by which "good" people and "bad" people are judged. I am not advocating "cheap grace". I believe God calls us to live lives of service and holiness; we have no excuse to rejoice in wrongdoing. It is easy for many people to attack homosexuality because it is something they don't have to deal with personally; it is easy to point out the errors of someone else, less easy our own.

Much mention has been made about "rights". My dear grandparents thought interracial marriage was the worst sin that could happen. They even had their Bible verses to "prove" it. Grandma told me if I married a black woman she wouldn't visit me. They thought that their right to live in a society without interracial couples was legitimate. How can we have a right to discriminate? Our rights end when they infringe on the rights of others. No one has a right to live in a society without homosexual marriage. No one has a right to deny rights to someone else so they can be comfortable.

I was going to make just a short response here, but it has gone into a long homily, sorry.

Another great book that doesn't deal so much which the scriptural aspects of the question is Stranger at the Gate by Mel White. It is a fascinating story of his struggle as a fundamentalist gay Christian. (Maybe someone has already recommended it; I don't remember.) It is a wonderful book that is easy to read that can't help but pull at a person's emotions.

Thanks again for your questions. If we could have this discussion througout Christianity at large, many prejudices and bad feelings could be done away with. You are so right in saying that our job is to love and serve one another. If we keep love in mind as we debate, the Holy Spirit will lead us all to a deeper understanding.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[frankandcathy]

Okay, well, that was pretty painless. I'm about to toddle off to bed but I wanted to read everyone's responses and say, "Thank you" for your replies.

I did get to read the "Letter" web page today. I think it's well thought out and obviously pulls from different sources. I think there were some biblical issues that weren't hit upon, however. Things that I don't have the time or energy to detail here (still processing through some of them at that) now. Hopefully I will get to do so some day.

Kara: I am really appreciating your insights. I'd never consider the house/children issues...mostly because I don't have to! Um...I'm not out to change anyone's sexuality. Really. I'm not.

Keltic...you're keeping me on my toes, I see.

I think the reason (the one, sole reason) that most Christians ignore science, physchology, etc. is because we believe the Bible is infallible. We believe that when we open our Bibles and it says, "Men shouldn't have sex with one another" that's pretty cut and dried. That's it. If the Bible said, "I should dress up like a monkey every Thursday" then that's what we'd do.

The problem with that argument, though, is very apparent: what about things like "Don't wear a shirt of mixed fabrics?" "Women should be silent in church." Are we just picking and choosing what suits us? Yes, in some ways, we all are. No Christian that I know of (gay or straight) sees it as a problem to wear shirts of mixed fabric or for women to speak in church.

So the question then becomes: what is the criteria for actually doing what the Bible says to do (or not do). Ah, there's the rub. There are as many theological answers to suit anyone's desires as there are desires.

This is the other big reason: most conservative Christians do not see homosexuality as something you're born with. We see it as something that happened to you as a result of sin in the world.

I think that I think of it in terms of my own recurring sins as a result of my family's messed up dynamics. I yell at my children when I get stressed out. I can't seem to stop doing this. This must be ingrained in me. Maybe it's genetic?

Now I'm not expecting ANYONE here to agree with this. I am sure that would be, in your eyes, like saying to me, "You're not really straight. You weren't born that way. You can work on changing that." I would just stare at you with my mouth open and wonder how you could be so dense.

I don't think I make disparaging remarks about gay people...but you never know. No, I don't think that the people around me aren't "out" to me because of something I said or did. But you never know.

Ah, read carefully. I was careful not to say that "gay people need Jesus because they're gay." My point is that gay people seem to be separated from the church at large and therefore, perhaps, from the love of Christ. Gay people need Jesus because they're people. The same as everyone who doesn't know Him.

LOL. I am absolutely not suggesting that the gay community stop being gay for their conservative brothers and sisters...although, hey, no, just kidding. I am suggesting that both "sides" lay down their political agendas, harsh words, etc. and begin serving one another in love.

I wonder how many times James Dobson and Jerry Falwell have physically served a group of gay people by giving of their time, money, or resources if not to help further "the cause" then at least to help meet real needs like food, clothing, etc. I am sure that there are homosexual people touched by their ministries but not in an intentional way.

I also wonder how many times the gay Christian community has served its conservative Christian family in the same way (would we let you? I hope so).

Andrew: I'm the "Cathy" part of "Frankandcathy." http://www.soulforce.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I definitely don't understand what it's like to be anyone but me.

LOL. It makes me think of that scene in PCU where everyone's standing in line waiting to get into the concert and you have the various outcries from each group about how oppressed they are. FInally one of the feminists says something like, "Woman have been oppressed all over the world for thousands of years. Shut up!"

So, yeah, I have a small inkling of what it's like to be the "other." I like to do woodworking and I often get weird looks from men when I try to talk to them about band saws, routers, etc. Often if there's two or more of them, they just ignore me or even just turns their backs on me.

I'm sure if I magnified that feeling about 1,000 times I'd have an idea.

Bruce: Bon't worry about it. I understood what you meant.

Didn't I say I had to go to bed?? Oh how I do love to hear myself talk...goodnight!

~C

[kara speltz]

Dear Frank & Cathy: Thank you for your openess, and your sense of humor. I'm truly finding this helpful to my own journey because it seems since the Equality Ride, I'm being led to these kinds of serious face to face (so to speak) conversations. I really believe that this loving dialogue will make a real difference. I've been a follower of nonviolence for some 40 years now, but it wasn't until I came to Soulforce, that I realized that I had things to learn from my advesaries. The peace movement can be very arrogant and think we have all the answers. I still struggle with that on a daily basis, but at least I now know that it is something I need to struggle with.

Again I thank you for your amazing courage to step forward and engage in this. I truly believe God is getting you ready for an amazing ministry and I praise God for that.

Kara

[andrewlittle]

I love it. Thanks, Cathy.

It's a bit of a bugger being shown your own bias, but it's always helpful in the end. What's that old saying about making assumptions?

And a woodworker, to boot. I taught a woodworking class to seven women at the vocational school in Delaware Ohio a few years back. You should have seen the looks I got from the "guys". It had "traitor" written all over it. Do you still have all your fingers - if so, we're both rarities at woodworking shows. Bless your heart, keep it up.

I would love to address the "Men shouldn't have sex with one another" part of your post, but I am leaving bright and early in the morning for Ohio for the week. Would you mind, when I get back, if I address the two Leviticus passages in chapters 18 and 20 that this comes from.

I have studied Greek and Hebrew extensively, and I can tell you that neither of those passages say that in the original languages, and even in the later Latin it is very ambiguous. The King James Version is the first time that prohibition shows up with that language in scripture.

I won't be looking to change your mind, necessarily. But I do want to show that tradition has had an awful lot to do with translation, and that there may be at least "a reasonable doubt" of guilt.

I will check your posts next weekend to see if it is okay. I will want your permission and will not post the explanation on your thread if you don't grant it.

In the meantime, have a great week - well, that goes for everyone.
Andy