The Bible & Homosexuality

[NonLemming]

Legion: That's so mean. I understand if the only way to express disagreement is to suggest suicide, but it's a little tacky.

I enjoy reading other people's opinions, even if they are different from mine. Makes me think a little. And yes I do pray for my own evolution as well as others. God knows we need it.

Sorry I struck the nerve in you to cause such a response.

Therapy may help, it may not.

Go well.

[SolInvictus]

Dear Legion,
you are in my prayers & you have my pity. I must say you really didn't answer the question I posed & instead began to attack from an emotional, rather than logical, perspective. This form is generally used in debate to derail from the original topic & begin attacking the person, verbally. Please respond w/ logic; not attacking others: its un-Christian & rude.

Now, in response to your question, the sacred in sacred texts, for me anyway, is the meaning behind the words & stories: not the literal words themselves. The Garden of Eden story from Genesis may represent humanity's imperfection & search for a paradise.

Another thing, having read the Bible, your screenname Legion is the name of the demons in the "possessed man." Is this intentional or are you referring to the Roman legion, a group of soldiers in combat? If the former, the name is telling...

In Christ's Love,
Peace & Blessings to You,
Sol Invictus

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Legion

To SolInvinctus:
If you don't believe in a historical Adam and Eve, what DO you believe in, and why? What other parts of the Bible have you decided are "allergorical" [sic]? Why should Jesu the Christ be any less allegorical, for example? On what basis do you discriminate (is that word allowed here?) between allegorical and historical? Also, how sacred do you consider sacred texts to be? At what point should they establish foundational and firm rules to discriminate between right and wrong? Thanks for discussing. I really do appreciate it.

To NonLemming
After reading your posts, I have begun praying for more evolution too. In fact, why don't you find go yourself a NonCliff and do evolution a favor? There's so many small brains these days, that the process of natural selection is having a hard time keeping up.

To Garage Catt
Note that the first several paragraphs of my post was in fact a quote and NOT stuff that I necessarily agree with.

To NathanATX
What exactly was your point in that last post of yours, with the little bit about the church squabbling with Galileo over the issue of geocentrism? Sorry, I'm just a little confused as to your meaning.

Respects and thanks.

From the tone of your response, I question whether you truly have respect for the people you are in conversation with here.

My point was to gently provide another viewpoint than the fundamentalist idea that says the bible is in inerrant and infallible, which I believe are positions that completely lack integrity considering all that we have learned today.

I do not believe in a literal creation story, by any means, with Adam & Eve as the central characters. I do, however believe, all that is has been created by God. I do believe that the story of Adam & Eve was a religious story meant to fill in some of the "holes" in ancient Judaism.

If we assumed that Adam & Eve were literal characters, I would say that I do not believe one act by one woman destined all of humanity to pay the price for her sin. I believe in original blessing rather than original sin.

These are my personal beliefs. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong... this is what speaks to me.

I honor how Spirit speaks to you.

You know, Jesus said the world would know we are Christians by our love for each other. I think we should all keep that in mind as we respond and react to people who think differently.

[Legion]

Originally Posted by NonLemming

Legion: That's so mean. I understand if the only way to express disagreement is to suggest suicide, but it's a little tacky.

I enjoy reading other people's opinions, even if they are different from mine. Makes me think a little. And yes I do pray for my own evolution as well as others. God knows we need it.

Sorry I struck the nerve in you to cause such a response.

Therapy may help, it may not.

Go well.

Apologies, Lemming-of-the-Non-variety. I was trying to use moderated sarcasm and it did come off sounding mean. I'll do better.
Thanks

To SolInvinctus:
Logic should never be used at the expense of emotion. Nor have I gone to the other extreme and abandoned logic. I was questioning into your reasoning and motivations, which is hardly emotional.
(I do know what Legion means in regards to the demon/pig story. Thanks. It's an inside joke with myself.)

To all you folks:
Obviously, we cannot interpret everything in the Bible as literal, since there are different types of literature within the Bible. And yes, God is bigger than simple stories. On that we agree. However, I am still curious how you decide what is allegorical/metaphorical and what is not. What is the basis of your discrimination between literal and allegorical, besides personal inclination? I appreciate NathanATX indicating that he honors how the Spirit speaks to me, but if the Spirit is speaking different things to us, then how can it be the same Spirit? How can you feel secure in personal beliefs that you do not consider right or wrong? God is unchanging and immutable. His counsels are everlasting throughout all eternity and there can be no contradiction within Him. God does not adapt to us, nor is His Gospel made to conform to our human motives and desires. It is we that must change, that must examine our lives and enter into obedience with the eternal laws of God's wisdom and covenant specified in the Holy Scriptures.

The story of Adam and Eve may indeed be allegorical, but then what is the significance of the characters in the allegory? Are Biblical allegories not used for teaching godly living? Dismissing the Bible as allegorical does not get anyone off the hook. Biblical allegory and parable is just as potent as Biblical history.

Is there absolute truth? Is there any kind of ultimate morality or standard of righteousness? What is the Bible? Who is God?This must be the question we address, rather than the fine points of doctrine and interpretation that only serve as a temporary smoke screen and only get us bogged down.

thanks all

[photosynthesis]

I'm not a fan of the KJV myself and prefer translations such as the New Jersusalem Bible and the Revised Standard Version-Catholic Edition. But it all boils down to whether or not you actually believe the Holy Spirit is active in the world or not. I myself believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible AND he is working in the world to keep the Church free from doctrinal error and guiding translators.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Legion

To all you folks:
Obviously, we cannot interpret everything in the Bible as literal, since there are different types of literature within the Bible. And yes, God is bigger than simple stories. On that we agree. However, I am still curious how you decide what is allegorical/metaphorical and what is not. What is the basis of your discrimination between literal and allegorical, besides personal inclination? I appreciate NathanATX indicating that he honors how the Spirit speaks to me, but if the Spirit is speaking different things to us, then how can it be the same Spirit? How can you feel secure in personal beliefs that you do not consider right or wrong? God is unchanging and immutable. His counsels are everlasting throughout all eternity and there can be no contradiction within Him. God does not adapt to us, nor is His Gospel made to conform to our human motives and desires. It is we that must change, that must examine our lives and enter into obedience with the eternal laws of God's wisdom and covenant specified in the Holy Scriptures.

The story of Adam and Eve may indeed be allegorical, but then what is the significance of the characters in the allegory? Are Biblical allegories not used for teaching godly living? Dismissing the Bible as allegorical does not get anyone off the hook. Biblical allegory and parable is just as potent as Biblical history.

Is there absolute truth? Is there any kind of ultimate morality or standard of righteousness? What is the Bible? Who is God?This must be the question we address, rather than the fine points of doctrine and interpretation that only serve as a temporary smoke screen and only get us bogged down.

thanks all

Legion, the questions you pose are exactly the questions the church needs to be asking today. I'll do my best to answer your questions from my perspective or let you know how I am seeking the answers myself.

"However, I am still curious how you decide what is allegorical/metaphorical and what is not. What is the basis of your discrimination between literal and allegorical, besides personal inclination?"

Well, I do a lot of reading for one. But the main basis I use is simple, common knowledge that we all have today. Thousands of years after the Bible was first compiled, we understand life completely differently. And the biblical writers' understanding of life was pivotal to the content of the stories and depictions of God they enscribed. If the underlying knowledge changes, doesn't that affect everything written based on that knowledge?

For example: the human-ness of Jesus. Biblical writers understood reproduction to be soley generated from the male. There wasn't a female counterpart needed, other than a womb for the male's baby to grow. Jesus was said to be "God in the flesh" because Mary was suppossed to have been supernaturally inseminated by God. Today we know that it takes the male & the female dna to create life. So the questions we now have are: Is Jesus fully God? Is Jesus 50% God and 50% human? How do these questions affect our Christology?

"I appreciate NathanATX indicating that he honors how the Spirit speaks to me, but if the Spirit is speaking different things to us, then how can it be the same Spirit? How can you feel secure in personal beliefs that you do not consider right or wrong?"

I think our individual traditions & experiences shape how we hear the Spirit. It would be very self-righteous and judgemental of me to hear you share something you believe that Spirit has revealed to you and tell you "you're wrong." Instead, I choose to appreciate that you say you are intent on listening to Spirit. If I have an opinion that is different from yours, I can share it in a way that doesn't leave you feeling evaluated or judged... it's just how Spirit speaks to me.

The security issue is very interesting. Do we choose to believe certain things because we are insecure? In "A New Christianity for a New World," John Shelby Spong talks about the "hysteria of self-consciousness" or the fear that hits people when we realize our frail humanity and our inability to protect ourselves from the finality of death. If that fear is the fundamental reason we believe in God, is our belief genuine? What if we were able to be brave in spite of our frailty? Would our understanding and views of God change? I think so.

"The story of Adam and Eve may indeed be allegorical, but then what is the significance of the characters in the allegory? Are Biblical allegories not used for teaching godly living?"

This line of questioning is right on the money! Through deciphering the meaning and the overall intent of these stories and passages, we can learn how God was known to the biblical writers. Through evaluating the culture and context of liturgies and stories, we can identify the reasons behind a lot of these writings.

One big question this brings up is the theology of atonement. If we understand the story of Adam & Eve to be allegorical and that "the fall" of mankind didn't really happen, then the theology of needing a savior to redeem sinners isn't neccessarily needed.

"Is there absolute truth? Is there any kind of ultimate morality or standard of righteousness? What is the Bible? Who is God?"

These are certainly the questions the church must grapple with and answer if it is to survive what John Shelby Spong calls the "death of theism" or the dying theologies that our current day wisdom and knowledge are disproving. Either Christianity finds a new and relevant interpretation of our faith tradition or we risk losing it altogether.

I HIGHLY recommend reading "Here I stand: My struggle for an authentic Christianity" and "A New Christianity for a New World" by John Shelby Spong.

[revtj]

by a whisker!

Do I know how to open a can of worms or what!

tj

[NonLemming]

You do indeed, Revtv, but that's what any open discussion on religious topics is going to do. It's still worthwhile after you seperate the wheat from the chaff because I thought of things I hadn't before. Keep on opening cans.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Everyone,

I am closing this thread due to it containing posts that are in violation of the Soulforce Community Guidelines. Since I was away for a few days this week at a staff meeting, I let this one slip through. I would remove the anti-gay posts, but it would disrupt the thread. And anyway, several of you gave some very good responses.

We can have a forum-wide discussion on this in the future, but for now the policy is that no anti-gay comments are allowed. Although Soulforce actively engages anti-gay forces in the hopes of changing hearts and minds, our vision for the forums is to provide a safe place for GLBT people and our friends.

Often anti-gay comments are presented as just another "opinion" on this "issue." Well, gay people are people not an issue and oppression is never just another opinion. It needs to be called out for what it is - a moral wrong.

Please, do feel free to discuss the Bible or any other religous book. Just note that those threads tend to attract those who would like for us to stay in our place in society and in the churches. And please continue to report posts that you feel violate our guidelines.

Jamie

p.s. please send me any questions, comments, or concerns you have on this action.