Public response to Sammy1980's e-mail message to my home

[andrewlittle]

I don't know if this is the right place to respond to the e-mails I received at home last night. I am posting them here, along with my responses because I have no intention of carrying on a private discussion with Sammy1980 and, since he sent these in response to a public forum I am making his responses public.

Sammy1980 sent two versions within 15 minutes of each other, and they say slightly different things. I am using different fonts for the lines from each email. The wording of the first e-mail will be bold - the second will be italic. The full messages of each are shown below.

Please be aware, Sammy1980, that this is the only time I will make an e-mail public on this forum. You will not be able to continue posting on this thread or any other threads by e-mailing me nasty little notes in the hope I will do this again. I will, however, continue to collect and save any messages you sent in case I decide that there is a case for harassment. Be warned, Sammy1980, that I will not be harassed without taking appropriate action.

Also, Sammy1980, for my responses I have taken my gloves off.

This is a message from sammy1980 at Soulforce Community Forums ( http://www.soulforce.org/forums/index.php ). The Soulforce Community Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email sammy1980, you can use this online form: [deleted]
OR, by email: [deleted]
This is the message:

Hello, Andrew,
I read your angry message and think the reason you are angry because deep down inside you know I spoke the truth, and you don't want to admit it. That's okay. It's hard for everybody to do the right thing for the sake of cultural acceptance. But sometimes, we gotta do what we gotta do.
I just read your angry post. I know that you are angry because deep down inside you know I was telling the truth, and truth always hurts. But we go to do what we go to do.

There are many reasons to be angry, Sammy. Let me assure you that mine has nothing to do with you being "right" - at least in the context of being correct. While "truth always hurts", it also represents an opportunity for self-reflection and growth unless, of course, you are prevented from doing so because you are an immature, borderline illiterate, logically handicapped chameleon who wouldn't recognize "truth" if it bit him in the ass.

I am angry, Sammy, because you twist facts for your own justification, quote "truths" without giving attribution or citation, feign understanding when you want to take a different approach to promulgate the same lies in which you have already been caught, and repeatedly fail to recognize your own ignorance.

Sammy, I am angry with you because you are inherently unlikeable, untrustworthy, deceitful, self-absorbed and, seemingly, damn proud of all the above.

Who do I want to be? Hmm... I think I want to be the guy who wants to save America from being a pro-LGBT fascist state like Sweden, where religious freedom is pretty much suppressed.
Who do I want to be? Hmm... I want to be the guy who can save America from becoming a homosexual fascist state like Sweden, where religious freedom is pretty much absent.

Just for your own edification, Sammy, a FASCIST is "a person who is dictatorial or has extreme right-wing views." A statement like "pro-LGBT fascist state like Sweden" is an absolute contradiction in terms - a true oxymoron, if you like.

Religious freedom is neither suppressed nor absent in Sweden, Sammy. Freedom of religion is held in the highest regard, but religion and secular politics are kept entirely separate. Each participant in a political venue, however, is absolutely permitted to use an ethic based on their religious beliefs.

What is disallowed in Sweden is hate-mongering using religious diatribe. Admittedly, when you try to legislate ethical conduct and interaction, injustices can occur. The measure of a democratic system, however, is how those mistakes can be dealt with legally.

You consider Sweden to be pro-LGBT, as opposed to pro-human rights of all kinds, because you have a distinct fascination with homosexuality and want to single LGBT people out as a specific, and irrational I might add, threat. Others have tried to analyse why you have this particular obsession, Sammy, so I will forgo that discussion.

I would like to point out your Christ-complex when it comes to being "the guy who can save America ..." Whoa, Sammy, your showing your desire to be a martyr for the "cause" here. But what is the cause you are willing to die for? Back to your obsession - oh well. May I remind you, Sammy, that as a Christian you should know that we already have a savior - the role you desire has already been taken.

And who do you want to be? Soren Andersson, who almost sent good pastor Ake Green to jail, for preaching what he believed. Well, perhaps this is the suitable profession for you.
And do you want to be Soren Andersson, the Socialist creep who almost sent good pastor Green to prison, for what he believed? This sounds like a right job for you.

Believe me, Sammy, if I were to seek occupational advice from anyone at all, you would not be on the list.

As for the rest of this line, I think you do a remarkable job illustrating your own stupidity.

You know, should I go to prison for what I believe someday, I'll accept it as gift from God and I am not afraid to suffer for him. Blessed are you who are suffering because of righteousness (1 Peter 4:14).
You know what, if I should go to jail for my faith, I will accept it with joy. I will suffer for God. Blessed are those who are suffering for righteousness (1 Peter 4:14)
Peace and love, Sammy

Back to the martyrdom, eh Sammy. But this time with a good choice of sound-bite, proof-texting to go along with it. When you read this passage in context it speaks more about people persevering through the hatred of other people who fail to understand the gospels.

Sammy, I think you're one of those "who do not obey the gospel of God" (4:17) because you do not do what was said earlier in the chapter - "The end of all things is near; therefore be serious and discipline yourselves for the sake of your prayers. Above all, maintain constant love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins. Be hospitable to one another without complaining. Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen." (4:7-11)

Apart from all this, Sammy, I would like to terminate this communicating between ourselves by saying "Bugger off."

[marutidas]

I got a question for you Sammy,

All of the time you are hounding us,
How are you helping the needy, the poor and the sick?
How are you following,
"Love your neighbor as youself self"?

A reading from the Letter of Saint James (James 2:14-18)

What good is it , my brothers and sisters, if someone says they have faith, but does not have works. Can that faith save him? If a brother or a sister, has nothing to wear or no food for the day and one of you says,"Go in peace, keep warm and eat well," but you do not give them the nessesities of the body, what good is it. So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, it is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate to you my faith to you from my works.

As I am pretty sure you know that the bible, is at large Not about human sexuality, is not about any human doterine.
As I am pretty sure that you know, that this sacred book is about, God's Love. Thats pretty much what we see, you can't force someone to love God,
neither is it right to horrible actions in the name of God, that regaurdless of what you say, the FOF are doing, when you say "traditional family", you discredit every other kind of family.

Many of us just want to be left alone, to be seen as human beings, equal under the Law
Nothing more, nothing less. Equal rights not special rights, is what we want.

"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condeming and you will not be condemed. Forgive and you will be Forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you."(excerpt from Luke 6:27-38)


~~~Maruti Das

[dewdrop_world]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Sammy, I am angry with you because you are inherently unlikeable, untrustworthy, deceitful, self-absorbed and, seemingly, damn proud of all the above.

But we have to love him anyway. Not because he did anything to deserve it, but because it is right.

Someone has to break the cycle of mistrust, anger and hatred. History shows that conservatives are not good at making this initiative. If not them, then it must be us.

James

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

But we have to love him anyway. Not because he did anything to deserve it, but because it is right.

Someone has to break the cycle of mistrust, anger and hatred. History shows that conservatives are not good at making this initiative. If not them, then it must be us.

James

it does make it difficult to "outlove" them, doesn't it?

[BruceChris]

Sammy, you seem to have P.O.'ed Andrew, which I would think would take some doing, as he seems like a rather easy going sort.

I am getting the impression that you are being what I would consider pious, judgemental, always right and sanctimoniously self-righteous about it. Sammy, the Bible says that we should love people, forgive them, and not judge them, but it never said we had to like them.

It has been said here before that those who obsess about homosexuals always obsessing about sex, are usually those who obsess about it far more than we ever do. It seems pretty clear that you feel a need to deal with some issues, but that the real issues that you need to resolve, to be at peace with yourself, are your issues, not ours.

Now you may notice that I am dealing with all of this second hand. That is because I put you on my Ignore list some time back. (Yes, I will trust Andrew to quote you accurately)

Sammy, if you want to spread the Word of God among people, it helps if you can get them to listen to you, to LIKE you would be even better. You are not going to achieve that by being a sanctimonious, self-righteous Pain in the Butt.

I wish you God's Love, and please Grow Up. Bruce Chris

Or, I wish you God's Love, but I need a breather

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

But we have to love him anyway. Not because he did anything to deserve it, but because it is right.

Someone has to break the cycle of mistrust, anger and hatred. History shows that conservatives are not good at making this initiative. If not them, then it must be us.

James- I agree with you. But at the same time, I believe there is great value in holding up a mirror to another so that they get an idea of the person they are presenting to the world. That is very effective in stopping the cycle too. The better part of valor may be knowing when and how to do such a thing.

While Andrew's description of Sammy may seem beyond the pale, I undertand why he used and chose the adjectives he did.

I hope Sammy can come to understand what a real friend he has in Andrew. Anger aside, not everyone will tell you what you need to hear to your face. That takes guts.

In the end, Sammy has to find the wherewithall to look in the mirror and be the change he seeks, as we all do.

[Pablo Rafael]

I hate to come to the defense of Sammy because I generally disagree with him pretty much across the board. However, he did get many of us to make thoughtful responses to his statements and led all of us to state more clearly what we believe.

I haven't added my opinion to the question of how much disagreement should be allowed in these forums. I really don't know. It is good to let people state their beliefs (even if I thnk they are wrong). It is also good to have a safe place free from the relentless anti-gay persecution. Should he have been allowed to stay? I don't know. It has been a good test to us as to how we deal with each other, even our enemies, in love. I haven't been around as long as many of you, but I have learned to know some very compassionate people in these forums.

Whatever our thoughts are, it is unfair to speak about a person who no longer has a chance to speak on his own behalf. It is better to leave this discussion on a positive note. I feel that the Lord can work in everyone; all of us, Sammy included, need to be open to the Lord's leading. For we are all precious and loved childen of God.

Pablo

[andrewlittle]

... the exchanges have all occurred, until last night, in public forums. Then it got real personal.

Even though Sammy cannot post to a thread, he has not given up his voice. His venue has simply changed to my PRIVATE e-mail account. At least there I have the option of simply deleting without reading, which I did with today's email. Judging by the # of KB listed, I have no doubt it would have been a long, rambling note this time.

More to the point, Sammy can still get on the site, can still read posts and can still generate emails from the information in my profile, despite my having clearly said that I no longer want a conversation with him.

I, personally, fail to see how moving from public diatribe to personal, unwanted harrassment is "leaving on a positive note."

Further, I have never considered it kind or nice to allow someone to continue deluding themselves, especially when that delusion is accompanied by paranoid fear of persecution. As even Sammy pointed out, the truth hurts. Hearing the truth, however, is essential in order to change our minds or our lives. Could I have done that in a kinder way? I have no doubt. I had, however, reached the end of my patience. Not an excuse - just the reason.

If you, however, would like to carry on a private e-mail conversation with Sammy, by all means let him know. I think he would welcome the attention and the affirmation. I would certainly be thankful.

[Joe Brummer]

[Joe Brummer]

Sammy should ask if he is part of this cycle or part of the peace process that will heal it.

[scott snedeker]

I can't express how much I admire your spirit and always read your posts with interest and anticipation of learning. I consider you to be of the beautiful people making this world a kinder place. Your candor and sensitivity are fortified with courage! I am privileged to have known you on this site.

Even though I see my intelligence as limited in comparison to yours you have never made me feel inferior. I'm confident that you can correctly recognize when someone is using you for emotional toilet paper, are entitled to object to it, and can justifiably expose his transgression.

I see Sammy's hate of himself as the drive to abuse the self esteem of gay folks. I believe he does this for gratification in order to compensate for his own emptiness. I agree that although this, as with other forms of predation, has emotional angst as the root cause, I also agree that Predation cannot be tolerated. The vehemence of Sammy's Private E-mails reflect the depth of his emotional malalignment and malignant potential to harm others

My apologies for rambling! I'm doing my best to tell you that I think you are a great guy! And though you obviously do not need defending, I feel defensive when someone disrespects you.

Love and respect,

Scotty

[zimnah]

My posts tend to ramble on a bit as I struggle (out loud) to define my voice. I was very curious as to what your post meant, as I have seen very little of the boards these days...playing catch up with my courses, just in time to cram for finals.
Here are some thoughts I had, mostly in response to the post that got Sammy in trouble:

Regarding Sammy’s postings which have led to this new thread:

This has been a powerful thread. I just wanted to add a couple of things:
1) Thank you for ending Sammy1980's postings. He brings to mind the opening of chapter 3 in my Ethnicity and Diversity class text:
Here goes:
Mr. X The trouble with Jews is that they only take care of their own group.
Mr. Y But the record of the Community Chest campaign shows that they gave more generously, in proportion to their members, to the general charities of the community, than did the non-Jews."
Mr. XThat shows they are always trying to buy favor and intrude into Christian affairs. They think of nothing but money; that is why there are so many Jewish bankers.
Mr. Y But a recent study shows that the percentage of Jews in the banking business is negligible, far smaller than the percentage of non-Jews.
Mr. X That's just it; they don't go in for respectable business; they are only in the movie business or run night clubs. (Parillo, Strangers to These Shores)
2) I have always wondered about the Christian concept of "love your enemies." I absolutely understand that hate is destructive even when justified. It also takes up so much physical and spiritual and mental energy that it has the power to kill, and not just the object of said hate. I have always taken that concept as " respect your enemies" rather than love. If you give those who oppose you a healthy dose of respect, you are less likely to underestimate them. In Christianity, Jesus is the direct offspring of G-d Himself. It seems like it would be setting an impossible goal in life to live as Jesus did. I guess that is why I am one of those "stiff-necked Jews." It is a little easier to learn from the mistakes of others, as well as from their faith in
G-d, than it is to attempt to always be nothing less than perfect.
We Jews have a doctrine when faced with oppression, discrimination, even with a flood of Nazis: to bear witness. Preserving life comes first, and if there is nothing else one can do (e.g the aforementioned Ghandi and MLK), then simply wait and watch. If possible, preserve the facts for later prosecution, for we do ultimately believe that all sins must be accounted for in one way or another.
Please understand that I am not even hinting that Jews are right and Christians are wrong...it was only when I just now went back and read my post for typos that I realized it could be taken that way. This is just one idea in Soulforce's flood of more intelligent and insightful posts.
My hat off to you, Andrew. From what I have read of your posts, you are articulate, intelligent, well read and intelligent. You think on what you would like to say, and then you post with defined sensitivity. I think you say what many of us feel with discretion and tact...and your post to Sammy is no different.
I went back to see what you were talking about, and read the last thread that caused Sammy to use up Soulforce’s patience. You, my friend, were succinct, blunt and absolutely correct. We cannot hide behind passivity and allow the truth to remain untold. In short, (and in younger vernacular) you rock.
I agree with your last suggestion...bugger ‘im. In addition, I would like to add a colorful Yiddishe suggestion... Sammy, gey kaukin auf dem yam! (went for phonetics on that one! Means "go piss in the ocean, yutz!") :-)

[frankandcathy]

I've been ultra busy with some stuff but God is doing awesome things in my life so I'm pumped.

I just jumped on tonight to see what was up here.

I was a little taken aback. I guess Sammy got kicked off the site?

That's a shame. Why did that happen?

I'll have to be honest with everyone. I feel it's a teensy bit wrong to keep someone on the site who is hateful and intentionally irritating and inflammatory toward, let's say: myself or Sammy and then kick Sammy off for being (just from what I perceived) a really poor communicator.

Now, granted, I've not been on in probably 2-3 weeks so I'm really just talking out of my rear right now. I don't have a clue what happened at all. I have just been thinking about how if you're going to have a "safe place" for people, it's going to have to be a "safe place" for everyone...including those of us who stumble in dragging our conservative bagagge behind us and laying it out all over the floor!

So anyway, what's been up with you guys? We're getting ready for Christmas here and things are hyper-busy.

I'm due to invite my lesbian acquaintance and her partner to church the next time they're here so we'll see how that goes. I first need to ask her if they have a church home or are interested in coming at all. We'll see what she has to say. She may be interested...maybe not.

Another way this site has helped me think out of the box: our family decided this year not to get any gifts for one another but to bless someone else instead. We considered going to a nursing home but then found out through a message board about a single mom with no job and a six year old son. We have asked her to join us for Christmas day to celebrate and will try to get she and her son some gifts to take home and open. None of this is to "let my left hand know what my right hand is doing" but to let you all know that when you help people think outside of the box in one way, it affects EVERY area of life. I'm so grateful to all of you.

I've also really learned to let go of trying to think that people have to do things, "MY way." I'm finding a balance. My husband pointed out to me a part of 1 John that talks about, "If you feel someone is in sin, pray that God will restore them." This works a lot better than, "Hey, you know...you are SO WRONG and God's going to smite you." So I'm learning that, sure, I can see wrong behavior in someone's life but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to bash them over the head with "truth." Prayer does wonders. Because after all...the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit and Cathy is not. What a great saying.

Andy: I have a confession to make: your book sits among a pile of other "to do" items in my butler's pantry. Um...I'm hoping for the New Year?? Mabye I'll have a book fest!

Anyway, let me know what's up with you guys.

~C

[Zerbie]

Cathy, to catch you up: I believe it was in the Gay Agenda thread (I could be remembering wrong) but Sammy got to a point where he really crossed a line into continual propagandizing without engaging authentically in what was said to him in response. He refused to look at facts. Not just our opinions and viewpoints - facts. He was not here for dialogue - he was here only to try and convince us that Christians are persecuted if gay peoples' human rights are acknowledged, and to change our minds about what God thinks of us - as if we haven't spent decades deeply contemplating and meditating on this very thing.

[andrewlittle]

Sorry it took me so long to show up in this thread again to say "thank you".

Perhaps as a result of some of the affirmations about my character, I am feeling a little "convicted" about how I handled myself. I am, however, NOT fishing for more compliments - I guess I am just looking to describe where I am at the moment.

I, in no way, feel that Sammy should have kept his privileges. I really do believe what I and others have pointed out.

I am just struggling with my own anger, and with the level of animosity with which I wrote. I am disturbed that I can still get so angry at another. It is an emotion that still seems to lurk inside an otherwise gentle person.

Anyway, thank you for the affirmation - especially Scotty's and Zimnah's, which were just so kind that they were embarrassing. Thank you.

[Daniel]

I'm sure you look good in a little color.

If I may: you have a wonderful way with words. Truly. And anger doesn't seem to dampen your wit a bit, though it does show that you are human, something we can all identify with.

I count myself blessed to read your missives.

I hope you stick around a long time.

There! Another compliment! Take that! You....you....

[andrewlittle]

To blush, or not to blush: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous compliments,
Or to take arms against a sea of flattery,
And by exposing end them? To flush: to blush;
No more; and by a false modesty we end
The awkwardness and the thousand natural blooms
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To flush, to blush;
To blush: perchance to redden: ay, there's the rub;
For in that ruddiness of embarrassment what relief may come
When we have shrugged off this mortal applause,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long a post;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of regard,
The philanderer's words, the proud man's acclaim,
The pangs of unrequited ego ...

Oh crappe, now I'm making myself sick.

[scott snedeker]

I didn't think that camp came without the gay gene! Are you sure you're straight?




Scotty

[Deb]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

- as if we haven't spent decades deeply contemplating and meditating on this very thing.

Amen to that....