The KJV Is The Inerrant Word Of God (Jesus Christ)

[Joe Brummer]

Sorry, I know you put much thought into that post, but I really wanted to hear what Christ said, not people who claim they can speak for him. It is my understanding Christ was dead for many years before Paul came along. I would have a hard time grasping how Jesus asked Paul to be his witness when to my knowledge they two live 100 years apart.


What did christ himself say?


Here is some basic (very basic) background on the timeline of things:

Main article: Historicity of Jesus

Most modern scholars hold that the works describing Jesus were initially communicated by oral tradition, and were not committed to writing until several decades after Jesus' crucifixion. The earliest extant texts which refer to Jesus are Paul's letters, which are usually dated from the mid-1st century. Paul saw Jesus only in visions, but he claimed that they were divine revelations and hence authoritative (Galatians 1:11-12). The earliest extant texts describing Jesus in any detail were the four New Testament Gospels. These texts, being part of the Biblical canon, have received much more analysis and acceptance from Christian sources than other possible sources for information on Jesus.

Many apocryphal texts have also surfaced detailing events in Jesus' life and teachings, chief among them the Gospel of Thomas, a "sayings gospel" or logia consisting primarily of phrases attributed to Jesus. Other New Testament apocrypha, generally considered less important, include the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Infancy Gospels, the Gospel of Peter, the Unknown Berlin Gospel, the Naassene Fragment, the Secret Gospel of Mark, the Egerton Gospel, the Oxyrhynchus Gospels and the Fayyum Fragment. A number of Christian traditions (such as Veronica's veil and the Assumption of Mary) are found not in the canonical gospels, but in these and other apocryphal works, such as the Acts of Pilate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by cjb

Sure....I can do that. Paul was appointed by Jesus Christ to be his witness. So through the Holy Spririt..... whatever Paul wrote and taught was a direction from Jesus Christ himself.

Either Jesus said it or He didn't.

[NathanATX]

I don't want to say "I told you so," but cjb's diatribe on the femininity of God is leading to a justification for a "biblical" condemnation of homosexuality. 1 Cor. 6:9 is a verse that fundamentalists typically try to distort to abuse gay people.

There are MANY more feminine descriptions of God than masculine. One of the most widely celebrated names of God, "El Shaddai" means nursing mother.

[NonLemming]

Good response Nathan. As Jesus and Paul weren't alive at the same time, someone could also hypothetically say that since Jesus told Pat Robertson to spread his word (that would be a REAL stretch of faith), Pat Robertson's word is the word of Jesus Christ. Now wouldn't that be frightening!

The most beautiful gospel to me is the Q gospel and it didn't even make it into the final cut of the Bible. I suppose the editors figured they could embellish his teachings to make them "better". The original "sayings gospel" is the nut of the matter. The rest is all exposition......"A statement or rhetorical discourse intended to give information about or an explanation of difficult material."

[keltic63]

I Corinthians 2:4-5
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. KJV

4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. NIV

so the debate really is over. there's no need to go through long explanations with word maps and charts, no need to find obscure etymologies. The Bible clearly says that it is pointless to do so.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I don't want to say "I told you so," but cjb's diatribe on the femininity of God is leading to a justification for a "biblical" condemnation of homosexuality. 1 Cor. 6:9 is a verse that fundamentalists typically try to distort to abuse gay people.

There are MANY more feminine descriptions of God than masculine. One of the most widely celebrated names of God, "El Shaddai" means nursing mother.

yeah, I saw that coming too.

[cjb]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

Sorry, I know you put much thought into that post, but I really wanted to hear what Christ said, not people who claim they can speak for him. It is my understanding Christ was dead for many years before Paul came along. I would have a hard time grasping how Jesus asked Paul to be his witness when to my knowledge they two live 100 years apart.

Paul was alive at the death of Jesus. However, he was a pharisee who persecuted the Christians.

Paul's Timeline:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html

What did christ himself say?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

It's quite apparent to me...Jesus said with his own words....the Holy Spirit would be sent. So I don't have a problem with Jesus teaching through Paul.

[OLD TESTAMENT evidence that Jesus existed before his birth]


[OLD TESTAMENT] Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

[NEW TESTAMENT] John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So it's obvious...God/Jesus Christ are the same. So whatever God said in the Old Testament is the same as Jesus saying it.

[cjb]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I don't want to say "I told you so," but cjb's diatribe on the femininity of God is leading to a justification for a "biblical" condemnation of homosexuality. 1 Cor. 6:9 is a verse that fundamentalists typically try to distort to abuse gay people.

Sorry...it says what it says and means what it means. When you approach a STOP SIGN....do you GO instead. And when your caught....do you tell the judge...."Well....GO is my interpretation...????

The term abuse and disagreement are NOT the same thing.

There are MANY more feminine descriptions of God than masculine. One of the most widely celebrated names of God, "El Shaddai" means nursing mother.

Sorry....No "Nursing Mother" here.

Shaddai and 'Elyon.

The word Shaddai (), which occurs along with El, is also used independently as a name of God,chiefly in the Book of Job. It is commonly rendered "the Almighty" (in LXX., sometimes παντοκράτωρ). The Hebrew root "shadad," from which it has been supposed to be derived, means, however, "to overpower," "to treat with violence," "to lay waste." This would give Shaddai the meaning "devastator," or "destroyer," which can hardly be right. It is possible, however, that the original significance was that of "overmastering" or "overpowering strength," and that this meaning persists in the divine name. Another interesting suggestion is that it may be connected with the Assyrian "shadu" (mountain), an epithet sometimes attached to the names of Assyrian deities. It is conjectured also that the pointing of may be due to an improbable rabbinical explanation of the word as ("He who is sufficient"), and that the word originally may have been without the doubling of the middle letter. According to Ex. vi. 2, 3, this is the name by which God was known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The name 'Elyon () occurs with El, with Yhwh, with Elohim, and also alone, chiefly in poetic and late passages. According to Philo Byblius (Eusebius, "Præparatio Evangelica," i. 10), the Phenicians used what appears to be the same name for God, 'Eλιον.

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by cjb

Paul was alive at the death of Jesus. However, he was a pharisee who persecuted the Christians.

Paul's Timeline:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html

Sorry, All the evidence I have ever seen says that Paul lived many years after the death of Christ. This one site you have found isn't exactly unbaised. Do you have something less biased?

Originally Posted by cjb

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

It's quite apparent to me...Jesus said with his own words....the Holy Spirit would be sent. So I don't have a problem with Jesus teaching through Paul.

[OLD TESTAMENT evidence that Jesus existed before his birth]


[OLD TESTAMENT] Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

[NEW TESTAMENT] John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So it's obvious...God/Jesus Christ are the same. So whatever God said in the Old Testament is the same as Jesus saying it.

This is nice, but it isn't what we were discussing, so I am a bit lossed here. I though you were going to show me what Christ had to say about men being effeminte. That was your earlier claim. Now you have moved on to something else but that isn't what we were discussing. Can you show me what Christ said about men being effeminite? What did Christ say?

You have posted a load of quotes from the bible about Christ and the father being one, but that wasn't what I asked you to present. I am sorry you went through all the trouble to put that together, but can you present me with that which you claim you can do?

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by cjb

Sorry...it says what it says and means what it means. When you approach a STOP SIGN....do you GO instead. And when your caught....do you tell the judge...."Well....GO is my interpretation...????

The term abuse and disagreement are NOT the same thing.

"It says what it says & means what it means?" Don't be absurd. I highly doubt you are applying levitical law to your life. Your double standard is hypocritical.

Abuse and disagreement certainly are dissimilar. However, fundamentalists often base their abusive, ungodly words & actions on texts that are "disagreed" over and then hypocriticaly twisted to wield against gay people.

Integrity is a good thing. You should try it.

[cjb]

Originally Posted by NonLemming

Pat Robertson's word is the word of Jesus Christ. Now wouldn't that be frightening!

Pat Robertson's not on my list of favorite pastors. I have my reasons to believe he's an apostate minister. Jesus Christ never wished death or assassination on anyone.

[cjb]

Originally Posted by keltic63

I Corinthians 2:4-5
5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. NIV

so the debate really is over. there's no need to go through long explanations with word maps and charts, no need to find obscure etymologies. The Bible clearly says that it is pointless to do so.

I'm sorry.....I don't understand.

1. On one hand you agree with what's written. It's an official message from God.

2. On the other hand....With what you don't agree with...."Well...it's got to be man's doing".

It sounds to me...you have a deep love for your vices.

[cjb]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

"It says what it says & means what it means?" Don't be absurd. I highly doubt you are applying levitical law to your life. Your double standard is hypocritical.

Jesus vociferously defended the moral code of the Old Testament Law. He abolished some of the Temple Law, and Ceremonial Law, and all of the human decrees laid upon the people by successive generations of the Jewish priesthood. But, Jesus never changed any of the moral law.

[SolInvictus]

Hmm...

Well, cjb, I proved my argument & no arguments to counter?

The Bible you take literally refers to God as both He & She. I'm not trying to be rude, but by accepting a literal interpretation its difficult not to avoid the contradictions. Its a sacred text that combines selected texts (yes, there are many others too), and must be taken in its proper historical, cultural, and spiritual value & meaning.

As with Legion, I truly feel sorry for you. Based on your postings, it suggests someone who is insecure & attacking what he/she does not understand. Having been brought up in a fundamentalist enviornment, I have seen that those who take the teachings to the extreme and most literal tend to have less faith (not more) than that other mainline & other forms of Christian belief. By depending on proving a point that accepts myth/allergory/metaphor/social teachings as completely literal can result in a faith like that of standing on quicksand...eventually the person sinks unless they find a way to get out.

I will praying for you:
Find peace & love in Christ,
Sol

[SolInvictus]

Originally Posted by cjb

Sorry...it says what it says and means what it means. When you approach a STOP SIGN....do you GO instead. And when your caught....do you tell the judge...."Well....GO is my interpretation...????

The term abuse and disagreement are NOT the same thing.



Sorry....No "Nursing Mother" here.

Shaddai and 'Elyon.

The word Shaddai (), which occurs along with El, is also used independently as a name of God,chiefly in the Book of Job. It is commonly rendered "the Almighty" (in LXX., sometimes παντοκράτωρ). The Hebrew root "shadad," from which it has been supposed to be derived, means, however, "to overpower," "to treat with violence," "to lay waste." This would give Shaddai the meaning "devastator," or "destroyer," which can hardly be right. It is possible, however, that the original significance was that of "overmastering" or "overpowering strength," and that this meaning persists in the divine name. Another interesting suggestion is that it may be connected with the Assyrian "shadu" (mountain), an epithet sometimes attached to the names of Assyrian deities. It is conjectured also that the pointing of may be due to an improbable rabbinical explanation of the word as ("He who is sufficient"), and that the word originally may have been without the doubling of the middle letter. According to Ex. vi. 2, 3, this is the name by which God was known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The name 'Elyon () occurs with El, with Yhwh, with Elohim, and also alone, chiefly in poetic and late passages. According to Philo Byblius (Eusebius, "Præparatio Evangelica," i. 10), the Phenicians used what appears to be the same name for God, 'Eλιον.

Once again, to correct you cjb:
El is the primary Mesopotamian deity revered in these ancient cultures. El had a son, Baal, a storm god. Sound familiar? Yes, the story of Elijah vs. the priests of Baal is probably a derivative of this story. To furthur elaborate, the story of tree & searpent in the Garden of Eden had mythic ties with the deity Asherah. Likewise, the popular mention of Leviathan is the equivalent of the "evil searpent" Tiamat.

Cross-cultural integration of beliefs is not uncommon. Actually, it occurs frequently, and allows the continued development of mythology, religion, and ideology. This does not disprove God exists. Rather, it is a way to understanding our common humanity and interpretation of the Divine.
For example, American culture has inherited much from Greco-Roman culture through architecture, literature, art, beliefs/religions (see the Mysteries), and concepts of individuality and freedom.

[SolInvictus]

Originally Posted by cjb

This verse deals with the rejection by the Jews.

The crucifixion is a result of rejection.

How did you reach this conclusion? Isaiah refers to a messiah in two passages: the quoted reference above & verse 7:14. While interpreting the meaning of a messiah is debated, it means literally "the annointed one." In the Bible itself, Cyrus the Great even receives this title for liberating the Jews, and allowing them to worship as before. Historically, it may represent the need for deliverance after a time of suffering, which leads to the idea of a "messianic age" or the Jewish people as the collective force to save themselves. This concept can be found in 19-20th century Middle Eastern & European studies, esp. after WW2.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by cjb

I'm sorry.....I don't understand.

1. On one hand you agree with what's written. It's an official message from God.

2. On the other hand....With what you don't agree with...."Well...it's got to be man's doing".

It sounds to me...you have a deep love for your vices.

what have I disagreed with? and what vices are you talking about?

you, on the other hand, have a deep love for your "enticing word's of man's wisdom" . we've not heard about how the spirit speaks to you, works through you, gives you a hearrt and mind to apply your knowledge in a loving, compassionate, Christlike way.

Father, I pray now for cjb, that s/he may come to know you more deeply, that your spirit will come alive to him/her in a way that mere words can never speak. Allow him/her to recognize the spiritual violence that can be done to your children by following such concepts as s/he has presented here. Bless your child, cjb, in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior, Amen.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by cjb

Jesus vociferously defended the moral code of the Old Testament Law. He abolished some of the Temple Law, and Ceremonial Law, and all of the human decrees laid upon the people by successive generations of the Jewish priesthood. But, Jesus never changed any of the moral law.

I suggest you consider sources outside of the UPC feeding tube.

Not only did Jesus come to abolish the law by establishing love as a higher law, He actually went against the law & traditions over and over again.

He surrounded himself with "unclean" people.

He engaged foreign women in intimate conversation.

He rebuked the pharisees & religious leaders for their hypocrisy and idolatry of the law.

[cjb]

Originally Posted by Joe Brummer

Sorry, All the evidence I have ever seen says that Paul lived many years after the death of Christ. This one site you have found isn't exactly unbaised. Do you have something less biased?

You've presented no evidence....so what makes your story believable....??? You wouldn't by any chance....be a member of the media..."where sources a sacried cow"

Here...let me help you out..

This is nice, but it isn't what we were discussing, so I am a bit lossed here. I though you were going to show me what Christ had to say about men being effeminte. That was your earlier claim. Now you have moved on to something else but that isn't what we were discussing. Can you show me what Christ said about men being effeminite? What did Christ say?

You have posted a load of quotes from the bible about Christ and the father being one, but that wasn't what I asked you to present. I am sorry you went through all the trouble to put that together, but can you present me with that which you claim you can do?

Sorry...he stated that the Father would teach by the Holy Spirit....He and the Father are one....that good enough for me...!!!!

[cjb]

Originally Posted by SolInvictus

Once again, to correct you cjb:
El is the primary Mesopotamian deity revered in these ancient cultures. El had a son, Baal, a storm god. Sound familiar? Yes, the story of Elijah vs. the priests of Baal is probably a derivative of this story. To furthur elaborate, the story of tree & searpent in the Garden of Eden had mythic ties with the deity Asherah. Likewise, the popular mention of Leviathan is the equivalent of the "evil searpent" Tiamat.

Cross-cultural integration of beliefs is not uncommon. Actually, it occurs frequently, and allows the continued development of mythology, religion, and ideology. This does not disprove God exists. Rather, it is a way to understanding our common humanity and interpretation of the Divine.
For example, American culture has inherited much from Greco-Roman culture through architecture, literature, art, beliefs/religions (see the Mysteries), and concepts of individuality and freedom.

So what does that have do with the name "Nursing Mother"..????