The Three Truths?

[tpdncr4christ]

So, a week or so ago I decided to do a little investigating into Focus on the Family. I sent them an email, to Breakaway, their teen boy section, saying:

I am 17. I think I am gay... I don't know what to do... I want to still serve God and make Him happy, but I don't know how to do that... Can you help me?

I wanted to see what they would say, and their respons was interesting.

Thank you for your e-mail to _Breakaway_, Austin. We are honored that you felt comfortable to share so openly with us. This certainly took a lot of courage for you to do. We understand the confusion you may be experiencing, and we want to remind you that God loves you very much and understands what you are going through. He cares about every detail of your life, and you can talk to Him honestly about everything you are thinking and feeling.

Let us also assure you that it is not unusual for teens to experience thoughts like the ones you mentioned– they do not make you a homosexual. Perhaps it will help you to know that we have heard from others who have had struggles similar to yours. In fact, we have addressed it in a few in previous issues of our magazine. You can find two of those articles online:

http://www.breakawaymag.com/HeyMike/A000000264.cfm

http://www.breakawaymag.com/MailBonding/A000000418.cfm

In addition, if you think it would be helpful, we’d like to invite you to call our staff of licensed counselors who are available to answer questions, offer encouragement, and pray with you. If you feel you’d like to discuss your concerns with one of them, a counselor would be very pleased to talk with you. First, get permission from your parents, then call and ask to speak with a counselor. Our telephone number is 719/531-3400. The hours are from 9:00 A.M. to 4:30 P.M. (MST) Monday through Friday. (We will be closed on Monday, the 25th and Tuesday th 26th.) Please don’t be discouraged if an assistant requests that you allow a counselor to call you back. One of them will contact you just as soon as possible. Both this service and the return call come at no cost to you; please accept them as a demonstration of our concern for you.

Another option would be to seek out a wise Christian adult you can trust with your questions and feelings. We realize that this might be uncomfortable or awkward for you, but perhaps you could pray about this possibility. In the meantime, we want you to know that we will pray for you, asking the Lord to give you His peace about this matter, and to keep your heart and mind focused on Him.

Thanks again for writing, Austin. Remember that trusting in Jesus and staying near to Him is the most important thing you can ever do. He wants to be your closest friend and has promised never to leave you or stop loving you.

Jamie Quinn
_Breakaway_

They preach a lot more love than I thought. I visited the first article and found something very interesting:

I’M STRUGGLING WITH HOMOSEXUALITY
But for now, let me leave you with three truths I hope you’ll take to heart:

1. “Gay” does not describe who a person is. Instead, it’s a political term that describes a chosen identity or lifestyle. Despite the arguments you may have heard, men and women simply are not born homosexual. God did not design us this way. In fact, as you pointed out, the Lord makes it clear that homosexual behavior is a sinful choice — and He even describes it as unnatural and degrading (see Romans 1:21-32.) The good news is, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 reminds us that people can and do overcome homosexuality, along with other struggles.

2. Since homosexual behavior is a choice your Creator doesn’t want you to make, He will help you have victory over the temptations. Even during those moments when Satan tries to trip you up, Jesus is faithful. He loves you and cares deeply about your struggles. (He understands them better than you do.) He will help you. Tell Him everything you’re feeling and ask Him for guidance. Pray anytime, anywhere. Jesus forgives and heals and delivers.

3. Getting help is another important step you’ve got to take. Don’t struggle alone. Breaking free from the bondage of same-sex attraction can be a difficult endeavor, one that requires commitment, perseverance and a strong relationship with the Lord.

After reading both their letter and the article discussing the "Three Truths" I got to thinking. Now I want to know what you all think. It just seems like they are talking out of both sides of thier mouths. One side says I'm going to Hell, the other says God loves me. So here's what I'd like to know: What do they think in reference to homosexuality? And is there any validity to the three truths? Anyone want to contribute their thoughts, O "wise christian adults?"

Austin

[keltic63]

Point#1: There is no word for "homosexual" in the Bible. Orientation as we know it was not understood at that time as it is today. At no point is homosexuality mentioned as a "choice" by any biblical writer. Jesus says nothing about homosexuals.

Point #2: Jesus does indeed care deeply about you, but as far as homosexuality being a choice that the Creator doesn't want you to make, see point #1. (not a choice!)

Point #3: there is no empirical/scientific evidence that a person can change orientation. so they are grossly understating the difficulty in attempting to do so.


They "talk" of love. I'm not sure how much loving they actually "do."

[erubre]

As too often has happened for me I typed up a long reply to this post then when I was nearing the conclusion it disapeared from the screen. So I will try again and keep this shorter, and maybe post in two parts. First may I say that I would urge any young person to be very wary of fundamentalists and so-called Christians who say that homosexuality or homosexual activity is immoral or a sin; and who encourage change. And I would suggest staying far away from their counselors and psychologists. The fundamentalists and conservative so-called Christans ( I say "so-called" because I feel that they do not represent what I believe Authentic Christianity to be, but rather the opposit.) when they use the Bible (Scriptures ) as the authority on which they base what they say they can trip people up with their method of interpretation. They will say that God loves you Unconditionally, but then add something that takes the "Unconditional" away. What they quote from the Bible applies to you only if it is consistantly in accord with the Nature and Character of God. and the Nature and Character of God is Universal and Uncondtional Love.

[erubre]

While the fundamentalists and also conservative so-called Christians will say it is the Bible, or Word of God, or the Scriptures on which they base the authority for what they preach it is really God Who is the Authority. And in interpreting the Bible it is important to use common sense and reason and think about whether what is said is consistant and in accord with the Nature and Character of God. Many things in the Bible were intended for other people in other places at a different time, maybe many hundreds of years ago and in other particular circumstances and may not apply to you or me today. God Loves everyone Unconditionally. God dosen't dicriminate with regard to sexual orientation. With God everyone is the same. God dosen't practice bigotry, God is tolerant, and is not prejudiced.
Many years ago I began preparation for the Ministry at a well know conservative Bible School. I was there many years and have a lot of experience with what goes on inside such institutions; and what can happen to a young person who they suspect of being homosexual. Again I strongly suggest that a young person, particularily one who feels same sex sexual inclination stay away from such people. They can be dangerous.
A young person who needs guidence and information with regard to sexual orientation would do well to get in touch with those oganizations that are non-judgemental but are supportive. That do not advocate a necessity for change. Do not talk/refer to homosexuality as sin.
Generally I would say whatever sexual orientation there dosen't need to be a problem. One sexual orientation is not better or worse than another.
There is a lot more I could add but I'll leave it there for now.

[Zerbie]

Austin, it is so easy for us to attribute motivations to a group like FOF - let's try to avoid that trap. If you want to know what THEY are thinking, ask them, not us. However, we CAN point out flaws in the reasoning, the enormous experiential and documented contradiction between the "solution" they posit and the actuality of what is going on in the world.

And also - who are they to speak for what God wants of you in your life? Pray on it - by all means. Let yourself come to whatever path is the right one for you.

The best kind of counseling support is a kind that will leave major major decisions in YOUR hands without any kind of pressure to behave this way or that way. But do know that whatever comes of your questioning and your journey, you are infinitely unconditionally loved by One who knows everything that you are. He loves and wants you, or you would not be here. Trust Him and listen for His guidance, not that of human beings.

To David: your story made me cry. I have to send you some of these:

[scott snedeker]

they remind me of the frog experiment!

If a statement makes you feel good about yourself then I would consider it possibly true.

If a statement causes you to doubt or fear or be uncomfortable then I would consider it spiritual poison.

What would the point be in arguing with the scientist that cutting off the legs of his trained frog did not make him go deaf! He's already made up his simple mind. Admitting he was in error would make him face what he can't stand about himself.......that he's really an idiot! And no self-respecting idiot would do that!

love and affirmation,

Scotty

[rainbowdog]

I know it can be hard think how i be gay and Christian . This haunted me for many years. I came out 4 years ago when i went to a therapist, who is a Christian. She told me thre is nothing wrong with being a lesbian and Christian. I have been throgh a lot of hard times because i thought you can't be a Christian and a lesbian . I supress my feelings toward women because i thought it was wrong and also was told i was going to hell if i was gay . Now i am going to a gay-affirming church. You can look up and see if there is one close by you by going to www.gaychurch.org
these so called Fundamentalists think it is your choice to be gay, but God creates some as homosexuals like some people are left-handed. I am not ashamed that i am a lesbian. i am proud to be a Christian lesbian.
God loves His GBLT children just like He loves his straight children . But God does not like heterosexuals who show hatred toward His GBLT children.
God loves diversity. He does not discriminate against those who are different such as: race, nationality, religious background, your ethnic background, disabilty physical or mebtal, economic statistic, sexual orientation and gender identity.
i also want to warn you about this so called ex-gay ministry. It is a fraud and it is dangerous. There are many who tragically take their own life because of it. I know someone who had been in the ex-gay ministry for 8 years but it did not work. He is still gay. I hope you find peace in your heart that God loves you no matter what others say.

God Bless,
Christy

[novaseeker]

Hi Austin --

Just a few notes on the specific parts at the end of your note ...

1. “Gay” does not describe who a person is. Instead, it’s a political term that describes a chosen identity or lifestyle. Despite the arguments you may have heard, men and women simply are not born homosexual. God did not design us this way.

It's ironic for FOF to take the view that asserting that homosexual orientation is "innate" is a political view. In fact, virtually every professional mental health and psychiatric organization does view sexual orientation as "innate" once it is fixed ... that is to say, while noone really knows (yet) whether it is mostly congenital, mostly environmental, or a bit of both (my money is on the last option), we do know that once it is fixed, it's there. It is what it is once it is fixed, per the overwhelming opinion of the scientific community. FOF's view is at odds with science, and as such it's FOF's view, not the view of science, that is motivated by non-reality based perspectives.

I can tell you, anecdotally, that in my own generation of my extended family, out of ten children, four of us are gay/lesbian, scattered between three families with three different environments. Now that's anecdotal, of course, but something is up. FOF's perspective on this is simply to reiterate its own view of "tradition" while ignoring the scientific evidence at hand ... and hence it isn't really credible.

In fact, as you pointed out, the Lord makes it clear that homosexual behavior is a sinful choice — and He even describes it as unnatural and degrading (see Romans 1:21-32.)

As for this, there is a great refutation of this kind of analysis of Romans right on this website, which you should check out. The way I view this particular passage, personally, is that it's clear from reading the text carefully that Paul did not have any idea what a "homosexual" was when he wrote Romans. Paul mentions acts that could be described as homosexual in Romans, but the context indicates that Paul did not consider the context in which these acts were taking place to be homosexual (because the concept of "orientation" was not known to him) but rather a kind of misdirected heterosexuality, in that heterosexual persons are portrayed as rejecting heterosexual relations for homosexual relations. The passage deals with those who exchange worship of God for idolatry, and then draws a parallel between this, on the one hand, and people who choose to reject heterosexual relations in favor of homosexual relations. It doesn't address those who are simply homosexual in orientation and do not, therefore, choose, in any meaningful sense, to reject heterosexual relations for homosexual relations, because this was not known as a category in the ancient world: there were homosexual acts, but not a homosexual orientation. So it was, honestly, impossible for Paul to condemn something that he didn't know existed in the first place. We now know, as a result of science, that there is such a thing as a fixed homosexual orientation, and it isn't what is described in Romans 1:26-27 because it isn't a matter of choosing one over the other ... so it isn't condemned by Romans 1:26-27 either. The whole history of the church's attitude towards homosexuality is based, therefore, on a misunderstanding about the nature of homosexuality to begin with, and it's through understanding of what homosexuality is that Christian ethics can be reconciled with homosexuality as it is now understood.

In this respect I feel compelled to add that it is quite telling that FOF adopts the non-scientific view of Romans in its overall approach to homosexuality as a "chosen set of acts" rather than a fixed orientation. That's because for the most part they are biblical inerrantists and literalists, and so where they see passages in the bible that contradict (on their face, absent a more sophisticated reading of them) scientific knowledge, they simply reject scientific knowledge. It's a regrettable perspective, but alas, one that can be at least demystified once it is recognised.

2. Since homosexual behavior is a choice your Creator doesn’t want you to make, He will help you have victory over the temptations. Even during those moments when Satan tries to trip you up, Jesus is faithful. He loves you and cares deeply about your struggles. (He understands them better than you do.) He will help you. Tell Him everything you’re feeling and ask Him for guidance. Pray anytime, anywhere. Jesus forgives and heals and delivers.

But he doesn't change people from the way he made them. He doesn't make lefties into righties or change the color of your eyes through prayer. The best prayer for a homosexual person is a prayer for the grace of self-acceptance, for the strength that it takes to finally accept the truth about ourselves, and all that this entails. That is a hard road, and it's one that God can and does certainly help with ... but it takes courage.

3. Getting help is another important step you’ve got to take. Don’t struggle alone. Breaking free from the bondage of same-sex attraction can be a difficult endeavor, one that requires commitment, perseverance and a strong relationship with the Lord.

Another place where FOF is at odds with science. Again, the opinion of the scientific community is that orientation can't be changed. The support groups and ex-gay organizations are not supported as credible by any of the major mental health or psychiatric organizations, and are considered to place individuals at substantial risk for mental and emotional damage without, at the end of the day, changing orientation. It's true that you can, if you wish, with enough motivation and support, change your personal behavior and force yourself to marry someone of the opposite sex and so forth, but that's very different from saying that you've changed your orientation. The fact is that there is no scientific support for the proposition that you can change your orientation, regardless of what groups like FOF and its ex-gay affiliates would have you believe.

It's difficult, Austin. Groups like FOF are very slick in packaging their messages. But the fact remains that, at bottom, the assertions they make are at odds with what science tells us about sexual orientation, and reflect both an ahistorical reading of the bible as well as a rejection of scientific truth. It's unfortunate, because the packaging can confuse people, but it's important to see through that to see what the arguments actually are, and what they are based on. If I were you, I would be very careful about accepting what you see in FOF's materials about homosexuality, because FOF's views directly contradict science about these issues.

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by novaseeker

It's ironic for FOF to take the view that asserting that homosexual orientation is "innate" is a political view.

What is even stranger is that they brand our views as "political," but their views are somehow "not political." Tell Republicans that FOF is not political! Trying to deny lesbian and gay persons their own identity is an extreme political act.

What is truly ugly about FOF's attempt to "counsel" young people trying to come to terms with their LGBT identity is that it is fundamentally about politics and not about "counseling" at all. True counseling or therapy does not make its clients pawns in some political struggle. This is part of the reason that "ex-gay" therapies are inherently unethical. Their goal is not the well-being of their clients, but the success of the political/religious movement they advocate.

Steven Webster

[pnggrad79]

Austin,
I am one of many, many people who literally agonized over being gay to the point of either walking away from a church they love or committing suicide. To say that being gay is a choice oversimplifies a complex issue. I did NOT wake up one morning and look in the mirror and say to myself, "Well, today I am going to fall in love with a person of the same sex." Are you kidding? It was a realization that I dealt with over a period of 10 years, until I finally got on my knees and came out to God and asked him to either take this from me or tell me it is ok. He did neither, instead he lead me to my wife and I couldn't be happier.
I know of at least 2 people who struggled with being gay and went through ex-gay reparation therapy and as intense as it was, they both are still gay. FOF may package their message in what appears to be "love", but when they work so hard to deny gay couples the right to marry and have children, and jobs, and housing, that is not love. They want you to be the cookie cutter Christian they are, live like they do, and when you are just like they are, you are ok.
You don't live in a box, or at least you shouldn't. Live like God created you to live. Shed the things that confuse you and force you to be something you are not. Be who you are. God will bless an authentic person.

[Eugene]

What is truly ugly about FOF's attempt to "counsel" young people trying to come to terms with their LGBT identity is that it is fundamentally about politics and not about "counseling" at all.

That's probably true. But I am not comfortable with adults on a discussion forum encouraging minors to identify themselves as homosexual, heterosexual, or sexual at all. That is something best left to parents and professionals. It is inappropriate, in my opinion, for which reason I will no longer be posting on the Soulforce forums. I don't like reading a post, getting ready to respond to it, and then discovering that the originator of the thread or post is a child.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Eugene

That's probably true. But I am not comfortable with adults on a discussion forum encouraging minors to identify themselves as homosexual, heterosexual, or sexual at all. That is something best left to parents and professionals. It is inappropriate, in my opinion, for which reason I will no longer be posting on the Soulforce forums. I don't like reading a post, getting ready to respond to it, and then discovering that the originator of the thread or post is a child.

Eugene- I believe there has been a misperception on your part. Why? Because no one here has 'encouraged' younger members to identify themselves as gay or whatever. They have done that themselves- in most cases- if not all- when they wrote their introductory statements in the "hello my name is" section.

While I can understand your apprehension, or at least imagine its cause, I hope you will give some thought to how your position will be taken by those same younger members. As such, it is likely to be viewed as being disrespectful and ageist. The unspoken assumption here is that younger members aren't worthy to have a voice or an opinion. And of course, that isn't true. Age doesn't give one wisdom per se- just more experience.

If their words are to be taken at face value (and I don't see why they should not), it is my observation that these self-identified GLBTQ persons are seeking conversation with adults that they can trust- in a forum where they can be open about their sexuality- perhaps for the first time. I think that deserves our respect. And careful consideraction. This doesn't mean- I firmly believe- talking down to those who are quite young- but keeping in mind who one is conversing with. A good rule to keep in mind anyways.

[tpdncr4christ]

Originally Posted by Eugene

That's probably true. But I am not comfortable with adults on a discussion forum encouraging minors to identify themselves as homosexual, heterosexual, or sexual at all. That is something best left to parents and professionals. It is inappropriate, in my opinion, for which reason I will no longer be posting on the Soulforce forums. I don't like reading a post, getting ready to respond to it, and then discovering that the originator of the thread or post is a child.

If you were to leave a discussion like the one posted in this forum to my parents, I would have been told all three truths are true. And all the professionals they have introduced me to have agreed with them. This is a place where I can find adults who can give me answers without judging me. This is a place where I can say something, and not be judged. This is a safe place. I am sorry you see differently.

And, according to the dictionary, I stopped being a child when I grew wiskers. Age shows how many years one has been alive, not how many one has been living.

[Zerbie]

Hey Austin. Thanks for your post.

I have been thinking about Eugene's concerns since he posted them and I think I see where he is coming from - it is a scary thing to think you could be construed as "politically" influencing a minor, with regard to an issue as enormously scary as this one. There may also be concern about being associated, even if incorrectly, with the myth of "recruitment" that gay men are actively attempting to recruit young men/boys. I think those are probably among the issues that influenced Eugene to say what he did.

That said, I do think this forum is about as safe a space as someone in your situation can find. As far as internet sites go, this one is well-moderated, there isn't a lot of fighting, there aren't any predators that I've been aware of, and we are all trying our best to support one another in friendship. I think of all of us on this forum as peers - and we range in age from about 15 to over 60. No one of us is going to be consistently wise and sage - we take turns holding each other up, uplifting the entire community. Wisdom and insight are independent of age.

Take all the arguments and disagreements with a grain of salt. None of us really knows the "right" answers - and I wouldn't trust anyone who says he does! keep listening to your parents and the professionals, and to us, and to your friends, but take that what you hear with a grain of salt - people make mistakes, people can be wrong: above all - listen to God when you pray and when you are in a meditative state. Listen to what the eternal spirit within whispers to you in moments of peace and beauty. No human being is going to have right answers for you all the time. Trust in the still small voice. Do that and you will take the next right step. You're already on your path.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by tpdncr4christ

And, according to the dictionary, I stopped being a child when I grew wiskers. Age shows how many years one has been alive, not how many one has been living.

Nothing like a well-placed zinger, is there? Austin- I see no one around here needs to defend you. You are perfectly capable of doing that yourself!

I realized that I never actually addressed your concern. Here's my take:

1. “Gay” does not describe who a person is. Instead, it’s a political term that describes a chosen identity or lifestyle. Despite the arguments you may have heard, men and women simply are not born homosexual. God did not design us this way. In fact, as you pointed out, the Lord makes it clear that homosexual behavior is a sinful choice — and He even describes it as unnatural and degrading (see Romans 1:21-32.) The good news is, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 reminds us that people can and do overcome homosexuality, along with other struggles.

There is a little nugget of truth hidden in the second line. Anyone who read the legal briefs from last summer's gay marriage cases (losses all!) will be struck by the similarity of the decisions in the respect that, all of them hinged on the way in which they were decided. As such, gay persons have not yet risen to be considered a 'class', that is, worthy or being viewed as a group of people worthy of rights. What conservatives and fundamentalists fear is that, one day (and that day will come I assure you) we will have the same rights as they do. In that sense, being a homosexualist is very much a political act.

And while they probably aren't thinking about this, we aren't born homosexual (relax everyone!) insofar as we aren't adjectives. As Gore Vidal (a great writer btw) has noted, it is much more correct- though not common- to say that one is a homosexualist- a noun.

And on a personal note: I never chose to be gay. I chose to accept the fact that guys rang my bell and not girls.

And there is good stuff here on this site about the clobber passages- Romans being one of them. Speaking personally again- these sort of passages don't' hold much weight for me anymore- thankfully. Simply put, my perspective is that Love Does Not Condemn.

2. Since homosexual behavior is a choice your Creator doesn’t want you to make, He will help you have victory over the temptations. Even during those moments when Satan tries to trip you up, Jesus is faithful. He loves you and cares deeply about your struggles. (He understands them better than you do.) He will help you. Tell Him everything you’re feeling and ask Him for guidance. Pray anytime, anywhere. Jesus forgives and heals and delivers.

Dear presumptuous writer- let's have evidence, shall we? I'll show you a couple hundred self- accepting gay people and you show me the same number of ex-gay people who are 'cured' and lovin' it.

What? No numbers?

3. Getting help is another important step you’ve got to take. Don’t struggle alone. Breaking free from the bondage of same-sex attraction can be a difficult endeavor, one that requires commitment, perseverance and a strong relationship with the Lord.

What's all this talk of bondage? Isn't that a bit kinky on your part, dear writer? Really! And I thought this was a clean establishment!

And oh....how nice of you to insinuate that I don't have a strong relationship with the Lord. Thank you so much for undermining me and damning me. For that is what you are doing.

[scott snedeker]

Austin, daniel, Eugene, Zerbie and others.

Soulforce is clearly a brave and effective endeavor created by visionaries to "right the wong" of homophobia in this world . Government and religion are grossly homophobic in this country and others. History of the future will annotate soulforce and its creators for their part in overcoming homophobia.

Austin, you have the bravery I wish I had when I was your age! You know more truth than most of your elders! Trust that your feelings of entitlement are genuine!

Daniel, Your voice is always well balanced yet supportive and unapologetic. Damn good writer!

Eugene, If you still read these posts, Don't falter too long! In time I believe the psychological benefit of supporting the identity of young people through the dawning of their sexual awareness with be prioritized above the hang-ups of previous generations (like ours). My hippocratic oath I took 15 years ago reminds me: "Do no harm!"

Zerbie, You are the closest thing to an angel on this site. Your spirit is the closest to Christ's teachings of any I have come across. Universal and Unconditional love!

And to the others, I cherish the privilege of your participation!

Love and affirmation,
Scotty